People complain about Zoe's E but...

Taliyah Rocks·Nov 30, 2017·29 votes·3,883 views

Charm lasts up to 2 seconds, shorter range, wider hitbox Actually grabs you into their team Stuns up for 2 seconds Snares for up to 2 seconds and allows ally to jump on you Snares for 2 seconds, can hit 2 targets and can go through one minion Snares for up to 3 seconds, very wide hitbox Stuns up for 2 seconds Snares for up to 1.75 seconds and goes through minions

All of those champions have comparable skillshots, that is also a basic ability, that can also lead to a followup from either themselves, or their team for almost a guaranteed kiil. Yet i see no one losing their shit about them. Take in note that ionly including champions that had similar linear skillshots that CCs you, that doesn't even account for all those other champions that have either point and clicks or more reliable ways to CC you.

Meanwhile...

Very narrow skillshot, extended range through walls, leaves a trap, but is broken on damage so almost useless in teamfights.

Sure, it has it's pros and it's cons, but i seriously fail to see why everyone loses their shit about Zoe. She's FAR from being the first champion that is rewarded for landing a skillshot, she's far from being the first champion that requires a setup to get kills, she's far from being the first champion to be able to burst people from afar.

92 Comments

SEKAINov 30, 201722 votes

The base of Zoe's E stuns for 2 seconds, which by itself is comparable to all of those things above. Okay. But you still have to realise, in trying so hard to prove your point, you used "up to 2 seconds"; Zoe's E is 2 second straight, not a possible 2 seconds, or a gradual upgrade to 2 seconds, just 2 seconds flat since level 1 if you want to, which means it's already better than most spells you've provided even in its MINIMUM form.

On top of that, if you miss it it becomes an AoE trap that practically seals off the entire path if used at a choke point (it is probably one of the strongest trap ability in the game at that, if not the strongest if we only do the comparison within a small time frame, because I guess she needed it on top of all the shit she gets in this spell alone???), it you hit a terrain it has range extension, if you hit it it has a damage amplification of double damage debuff which while soft capped it's still double damage upfront, it also for some reason has soft reset on hit-confirm.

"it has its pros and its cons"

You wot mate. What is the con? Being just a couple seconds longer in CD than Morg's Q, to trade for all that shit?

MysterQNov 30, 20175 votes

Con: It has low damage, and requires a "hard" skillshot to followup.

Count LieberkuhnNov 30, 20172 votes

When I first played Zoe, I assumed that her E didn't do damage as it was already such a powerful CC. Then I killed someone with it. A skill this powerful doesn't need to do damage on its own as well.

Also the double damage proc can come from anything, not just Zoe herself, so even the 'hard skillshot' con doesn't really count.

Taliyah RocksNov 30, 201716 votes

{quoted}

The base of Zoe's E stuns for 2 seconds, which by itself is comparable to all of those things above. Okay. But you still have to realise, in trying so hard to prove your point, you used "up to 2 seconds"; Zoe's E is 2 second straight, not a possible 2 seconds, or a gradual upgrade to 2 seconds, just 2 seconds flat since level 1 if you want to, which means it's already better than most spells you've provided even in its MINIMUM form.

Uhm.... it's not a stun, it's a sleep, which is broken by damage. Which means that the duration can be as short as instantaneous if you were already taking damage (say a tank had sunfire cape near you) or up to two seconds if you haven't taken damage in the meanwhile. I'm not saying it's worse than other spells, just comparing it. You say it's a flat 2 second durations, but you don't factor the fact that it can be broken before.

On top of that, if you miss it it becomes an AoE trap that practically seals off the entire path if used at a choke point (it is probably one of the strongest trap ability in the game at that, if not the strongest if we only do the comparison within a small time frame, because I guess she needed it on top of all the shit she gets in this spell alone???), it you hit a terrain it has range extension, if you hit it it has a damage amplification of double damage debuff which while soft capped it's still double damage upfront, it also for some reason has soft reset on hit-confirm.

The bubble is mainly a zoning tool, if you walk into it, there's no one to blame but you. There are so many zoning tool in this game i won't even make a list. And the size of this one is actually very small, plus it's visible.

You wot mate. What is the con? Being just a couple seconds longer in CD than Morg's Q, to trade for all that shit?

It has a very narrow hitbox compared to most other similar spells, it is broken on damage, the sleep is delayed, it is blocked by minions (granted most other similar spells are also blocked by minions, but not all of them)

SEKAINov 30, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Hands r 2 Big,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H04AAM3t,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2017-11-30T10:15:55.358+0000)

Uhm.... it's not a stun, it's a sleep, which is broken by damage. Which means that the duration can be as short as instantaneous if you were already taking damage (say a tank had sunfire cape near you) or up to two seconds if you haven't taken damage in the meanwhile. I'm not saying it's worse than other spells, just comparing it. You say it's a flat 2 second durations, but you don't factor the fact that it can be broken before.

Because people don't burst the target from the orbit once they're CC'ed, I suppose? That there is just a contrived argument that makes no sense.

If a champ being root in a crowded fight usually kills them even though they can still use spells outside of mobility ones, what makes you think a CC that ""sleeps"" you for 2 second that can be TECHNICALLY broken from the first hit and escapable is gonna have a higher chance of survival given both scenario they both die in the first hit, or the first wave of hits, anyway?

The bubble is mainly a zoning tool, if you walk into it, there's no one to blame but you. There are so many zoning tool in this game i won't even make a list. And the size of this one is actually very small, plus it's visible.

No, the problem is not a singular element of this spell, it's the fact it's like 3 normal spells all crammed into 1. This is how CertainlyT always finds excuses to pretend that his kits are okay, that every single time he uses a combination of spells to form 1 spell, and claim that it's okay because individually each one is not such a big deal. But the problem is that it shouldn't be a fucking spell that's like 3 spells in 1, it's utterly ridiculous.

It has a very narrow hitbox compared to most other similar spells, it is broken on damage, the sleep is delayed, it is blocked by minions (granted most other similar spells are also blocked by minions, but not all of them)

The sleep is delayed is actually pro, not a con. I don't even know anyone with a brain is gonna think otherwise.

It makes it so that the effect is not region bound like a damn trap should, and the instant you make the contact with the trap, you are given a small trap that will follow you anywhere until it goes off. Think Soraka's E where it silences the people inside the AoE and roots them if you are in there as it closes a short while later, and now imagine and shift it so that the root effect is delayed but will follow you; so if you ghost or dash through the region to chase a target, you will always be rooted regardless of where you are once the timer goes off. How the hell is that a weakness? It's a god damn pro, as it is more powerful where it VERY RELIABLY closes that section of the map into a strict no-go zone (closes the entire path if it's the choke point) with no way of passing outside of using another path of entry!

You can't "tough it out" in the same way like any other traps in the game (even Jinx's has gaps in between the "wall", or the trap-master like Teemo where you can really just tank it or even clear it, for Zoe's E it's completely absolute; if it's there in the middle of a path, you ain't passing through that path), how does it make sense that some of the stronger CC as her E IN THE VERY MINIMUM OF THAT SPELL also needs to have almost the strongest trap in the entire game in the same spell, and somehow that's a con? This is not even considering all the other good shit that comes along with it all, in this 1 spell, and that's a CON?

**EDIT: **Hard CC can be blocked by minions is hardly a con, because there are only so little amount of champs who don't have that in the first place. And for those who do, they typically have a very solid ground and reasons for why that's the case: Champs like Vi and Malph can just run through the minions and eat your ass because it's their ultimate, champs like Alistar and Vayne can just knock you with a lock-on because they at least have the excuses that it's equally beneficial as it is disadvantageous since any wrong use results in actually helping the enemies escape, champs like Taric's E is both very telegraphed and delayed and specific in its execution not to mention short ranged to gain the ability to pass through minions, champs like Ryze can root you instantly for 2 seconds with a lock-on because he needs to blow 2 of his 3 attack spells to do just that which also by doing it ruins his DPS combo pattern. Yeah there are say Malz and Annie, but they're like some ancient design, and there aren't that many of them in the game left. A convention is not a con, you're trying too hard there.

Stop using terrible logic to defend the indefensible, it's contrived, and it's very annoying.

Gives No LuxNov 30, 20179 votes

It has a long CD if you use it to zone and it is the only 'hard' cc that you can get hit with and still react. I never lose directly to an opposing Zoe. On the few times I get hit with bubble I flash if I need to or zone her where she needs to go to follow-up IE: Swain q, Malz q, Lux q/e, Velkoz ew.

Half the time Zoe lands an e I end up killing her because they get too aggressive trying to follow up. Stop playing so afraid and punish her aggression.

If you're getting hit over walls then that is just an awareness or positioning issue.

SEKAINov 30, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gives No Lux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H04AAM3t,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2017-11-30T10:50:15.835+0000)

It has a long CD if you use it to zone and it is the only 'hard' cc that you can get hit with and still react. I never lose directly to an opposing Zoe. On the few times I get hit with bubble I flash if I need to or zone her where she needs to go to follow-up IE: Swain q, Malz q, Lux q/e, Velkoz ew.

Half the time Zoe lands an e I end up killing her because they get too aggressive trying to follow up. Stop playing so afraid and punish her aggression.

If you're getting hit over walls then that is just an awareness or positioning issue.

I don't think bad plays is and should be a factor considered in champion balance.

Champs should always be considered at their highest performance; and discuss what should or should not happen there.

Oh, the hard champs will be too hard if that's the case? Well, welcome to the club, I suppose you don't just play a hard champ while not expecting them to be actually hard to play and do well with? If you're asking for the bonus for you effort, most of the hard champs (not including just trash champs who are hard to perform because UP) are more flexible and versatile by nature; that already is your bonus.

ExaggeratedToastNov 30, 20177 votes

{quoted}

I don't think bad plays is and should be a factor considered in champion balance.

Champs should always be considered at their highest performance; and discuss what should or should not happen there.

Oh, the hard champs will be too hard if that's the case? Well, welcome to the club, I suppose you don't just play a hard champ while not expecting them to be actually hard to play and do well with? If you're asking for the bonus for you effort, most of the hard champs (not including just trash champs who are hard to perform because UP) are more flexible and versatile by nature; that already is your bonus.

The things listed are counterplays though, every Zoe that has landed E is going to follow up with Q. the offered counter play is to make sure you dont get hit by Q or bait the E and counter the aggression, i posted a list of Zoe's weaknesses for reference

SEKAINov 30, 20174 votes

{quoted}

The things listed are counterplays though, every Zoe that has landed E is going to follow up with Q. the offered counter play is to make sure you dont get hit by Q or bait the E and counter the aggression, i posted a list of Zoe's weaknesses for reference

This is why I said bad play should not be considered a legitimate balance element. Because

It's not Zoe's problem as a champ if the player plays over-aggressively and decides to over-commit just because they landed a EQ combo.
It's not Zoe's problem as a champ if the player misses her E and still decides to use Q.
It's not Zoe's problem as a champion if they can't land the Q or E, because there are plenty of experienced players who will.

you get the idea.

Most of CertainlyT's champ has this same problem, the ""counterplay"" is often just waiting for the player to outplay themselves with their own bad-ness. That is not counterplay.

ExaggeratedToastNov 30, 20174 votes

{quoted}

This is why I said bad play should not be considered a legitimate balance element. Because

It's not Zoe's problem as a champ if the player plays over-aggressively and decides to over-commit just because they landed a EQ combo.

It's not Zoe's problem as a champ if the player misses her E and still decides to use Q.

It's not Zoe's problem as a champion if they can't land the Q or E, because there are plenty of experienced players who will.

you get the idea.

Most of CertainlyT's champ has this same problem, the ""counterplay"" is often just waiting for the player to outplay themselves with their own bad-ness. That is not counterplay.

i gave a list of counter play options.

on your last note tho, often waiting for your enemy to pull the trigger is the counter play Example: naturally waiting for blitz to miss a Q is great opportunity to finally engage, but that isn't always the case because it isn't exactly blitz outplaying himself, likewise if you pick leona into blitz and blitz lands Q directly on your adc perfectly, even though it's perfect the counter to it with leona is to go all in on the ADC

in this event, even if the play maker was blitz and it didn't fail, counter play being made is against the aggression not the fail.

SEKAINov 30, 20173 votes

{quoted}

i gave a list of counter play options.

on your last note tho, often waiting for your enemy to pull the trigger is the counter play Example: naturally waiting for blitz to miss a Q is great opportunity to finally engage, but that isn't always the case because it isn't exactly blitz outplaying himself, likewise if you pick leona into blitz and blitz lands Q directly on your adc is perfect, even if that is perfect the counter to it with leona is to go all in on the ADC

in this event, even if the play maker was blitz and it didn't fail, counter play being made is against the aggression not the fail.

There is a difference between capitalisation and counterplay. One is passive, the other is active.

When you have to use Blitzcrank, a champ widely known to have very little actual counterplay as an argument to support your stance on what you think counterplay is, you know you'd fucked up.

Blitzcrank's hook has no counterplay besides the general convention of hiding behind minions , given that most strong CC spells do not go past minions in the first place, and it's extremely fast and give no signal besides that 1 frame of executing animation to provide any meaningful and actual counterplay to the player. If Blitz has any counterplay options, it doesn't exist in his Q, but the fact his power budget is so hilarious loaded into his Q the rest of his kit is VERY meh. But still, it doesn't mean Blitzcrank overall qualifies as a champ with well balanced counterplay options.

For a Blitzcrank to fail his hook, the only surely way for that to happen is as if he misses it himself, because every other "counterplay" is often just a crap-shoot, a gamble at best. If this Blitz is good, he will land almost his every Q, because this spell does not by definition have a counterplay built into it. You don't just say something is another thing because it's convenient for you to do so, it doesn't work like that.

Similarly, Zoe has this problem, because if you think it qualifies for "counterplay" to have it for the opponent just waiting passively until the player themselves fuck over their own ass due to their own incompetency, in order to capitalise on them; what happens when they are good? Instead of dodging the question with BS, let's just say what it is, it doesn't have an actual counterplay. Or at the very, very least, what you've proposed is not counterplay.

A counterplay is someone for example their spell is telegraphed, their are weak early, they have 0 escapes, they are resource hugs, their CD is very long etc etc etc, that you can actively and RELIABLY PLAY AGAINST them. Waiting for them to fuck their own ass is not """counterplay""". Beating beaten by someone who outshines in solutions where you have to use unproportionally extra wits or resource to outplay them is not counterplay. Counter measures based on chances, experiences, gambles and intuition, is not counterplay. Counterplay should be precise, defined, and reliable, not among the levels of "tips".

Similarly, counterpicking is NOT counterplaying. Related, but hardly the same thing.

ExaggeratedToastNov 30, 20172 votes

{quoted}

There is a difference between capitalisation and counterplay. One is passive, the other is active.

When you have to use Blitzcrank, a champ widely known to have very little actual counterplay as an argument to support your stance on what you think counterplay is, you know you'd fucked up.

Blitzcrank's hook has no counterplay besides the general convention of hiding behind minions , given that most strong CC spells do not go past minions in the first place, and it's extremely fast and give no signal besides that 1 frame of executing animation to provide any meaningful and actual counterplay to the player. If Blitz has any counterplay options, it doesn't exist in his Q, but the fact his power budget is so hilarious loaded into his Q the rest of his kit is VERY meh. But still, it doesn't mean Blitzcrank qualifies as a champ with well balanced counterplay options.

For a Blitzcrank to fail his hook, the only surely way for that to happen is as if he misses it himself, because every other "counterplay" is often just a crap-shoot, a gamble at best. If this Blitz is good, he will land almost his every Q, because this spell does not by definition have a counterplay built into it. You don't just say something is another thing because it's convenient for you to do so, it doesn't work like that.

Similarly, Zoe has this problem, because if think it qualifies for "counterplay" to have it for the opponent just waiting passively until the player themselves fuck over their own ass due to their own incompetency, in order to capitalise on them; what happens when they are good? Instead of dodging the question with BS, let's just say what it is, it doesn't have an actual counterplay.

A counterplay is someone for example their spell is telegraphed, their are weak early, they have 0 escapes, they are resource hugs, their CD is very long etc etc etc, that you can actively PLAY AGAINST them. Waiting for them to fuck their own ass is not """counterplay""".

Similarly, counterpicking is NOT counterplaying.

the counter play to blitz Q's is to bait the Q's (often counter plays involve baiting strong abilities before going ham)... none the less it's clear that you will not see reason in what is being told to you so i regress. enjoy your day gl and hf on the field

SEKAINov 30, 20172 votes

{quoted}

the counter play to blitz Q's is to bait the Q's (often counter plays involve baiting strong abilities before going ham)... none the less it's clear that you will not see reason in what is being told to you so i regress. enjoy your day gl and hf on the field

How hard is it to understand that baiting a bad player to fuck up their own ass is not counterplay? You can say it's a counter tactics for a given specific/particular situation or scenario, but it's NOT counterplay.

Counterplay is innate, reliable, and designed into the kit itself. "They screwing up" is NOT counterplay, because if that's the only "counterplay" you can think of it implies the champ or whatever it is in the question has no weakness if played perfectly.

Blitz is not without weakness as that because the only thing without counterplay is really just his hook, which is also why a good player will almost NEVER miss their hook as Blitz. Because the hook has almost 0 counterplay by design.

How hard is it to understand that?

It's almost as if some of the people here have never played any sort of game before or something. Fuck me.

ExaggeratedToastNov 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

How hard is it to understand that baiting a bad player to fuck up their own ass is not counterplay? You can say it's a counter tactics for a given specific/particular situation or scenario, but it's NOT counterplay.

Counterplay is innate, reliable, and designed into the kit itself. "They screwing up" is NOT counterplay, because it implies the champ or whatever it is in the question has no weakness if played perfectly.

Blitz is not without weakness as that because the only thing without counterplay is really just his hook, which is also why a good player will almost NEVER miss their hook as Blitz. Because the hook has no counterplay by design.

How hard is it to understand that?

It's almost as if the people here has never played any sort of game before. Fuck me.

Your not open to ideas bud, your opinion is your own, the community can't change your opinion we can only reason with it. have a good day

SEKAINov 30, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Your not open to ideas bud, your opinion is your own, the community can't change your opinion we can only reason with it. have a good day

You have to really hammer the passive aggressive attack that I'm close minded, to imply that I'm wrong without actually showing and proving such through actual debates, don't you?

Let's not even forget that fact that between us 2, I was the only one who actually bothered to go into details explaining the stance and rebutting your points, while you're just busy throwing stuff and changing topics before resorting to rhetorical attacks like this in the end.

But okay.

You also don't have to wish me good day twice, it's hilarious. It was your concluding post, and so was the last one mine, and neither of us overly provoked each other to come back, it was more or less already ended at a note of sort, so why do you have to come back just to do borderline trashtalk? I call this a trashtalk because it literally doesn't even add anything to the conversation. It makes no sense to me. Give it an ending it deserves, if you will.

Count LieberkuhnNov 30, 20171 votes

No, he's right. Blitz's Q doesn't really have a whole lot of counterplay besides hiding behind minions or moving erratically, at which point it becomes kind of down to the blitz's skill. Note that walking weirdly means he can catch you up assuming he's moving in a straight line, making his window for failure smaller the more you do it.

Blitz is however balanced, because the rest of his kit is mediocre, and unless he's full AP and you're squishy or low hp already, he's no threat to you alone - he needs an ally. If he misses his Q, then he's useless for the next 15 seconds or so. That's what he means by being easy to capitalise upon if he misses, despite having low counterplay.

Meanwhile, if Zoe misses, she has a very low cd nuke she can still use, and will still probably land if she's skilled if you're walking in range to attack her.

ExaggeratedToastNov 30, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Count Lieberkuhn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H04AAM3t,comment-id=00010001000000000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-11-30T13:51:49.429+0000)

No, he's right. Blitz's Q doesn't really have a whole lot of counterplay besides hiding behind minions or moving erratically, at which point it becomes kind of down to the blitz's skill. Note that walking weirdly means he can catch you up assuming he's moving in a straight line, making his window for failure smaller the more you do it.

Blitz is however balanced, because the rest of his kit is mediocre, and unless he's full AP and you're squishy or low hp already, he's no threat to you alone - he needs an ally. If he misses his Q, then he's useless for the next 15 seconds or so. That's what he means by being easy to capitalise upon if he misses, despite having low counterplay.

Meanwhile, if Zoe misses, she has a very low cd nuke she can still use, and will still probably land if she's skilled if you're walking in range to attack her.

It's rather pack luster without the damage boost from e early and still a skill shot that you can see incoming, to me I have more problems with yasuo's and ekko's that have huge zoning potential because they can get to you quick, over a skill shot I just have to watch closely for and use my own skill to dodge or get minions to body block.. think the E having 0 damage is the best solution I've seen proposed if she is indeed a problem but I'm she isn't

Malix FarwinNov 30, 20173 votes

{quoted}

The base of Zoe's E stuns for 2 seconds, which by itself is comparable to all of those things above. Okay. But you still have to realise, in trying so hard to prove your point, you used "up to 2 seconds"; Zoe's E is 2 second straight, not a possible 2 seconds, or a gradual upgrade to 2 seconds, just 2 seconds flat since level 1 if you want to, which means it's already better than most spells you've provided even in its MINIMUM form.

On top of that, if you miss it it becomes an AoE trap that practically seals off the entire path if used at a choke point (it is probably one of the strongest trap ability in the game at that, if not the strongest if we only do the comparison within a small time frame, because I guess she needed it on top of all the shit she gets in this spell alone???), it you hit a terrain it has range extension, if you hit it it has a damage amplification of double damage debuff which while soft capped it's still double damage upfront, it also for some reason has soft reset on hit-confirm.

"it has its pros and its cons"

You wot mate. What is the con? Being just a couple seconds longer in CD than Morg's Q, to trade for all that shit?

Her E also doesn't have the advantages the other roots have. You cant flash after morg's root hits you, you are just stuck. It also doesn't: go through minions, not break on damage, hit multiple people, last 3 seconds(morgana), pull you to their team, ect.

As far as the trap comment goes, most of those champs with a stun/snare also have a way to control the choke points as well: Morgana, Lux, Xerath, and even Zyra with her plants. Sounds to me like you are just listing her kit and saying "well look what she can do", yes we are aware of that.

Velzard of KozNov 30, 20172 votes

Zoe's E is 2 second straight, not a possible 2 seconds, or a gradual upgrade to 2 seconds, just 2 seconds flat since level 1 if you want to, which means it's already better than most spells you've provided even in its MINIMUM form.

Hey I know a way to balance it out. Let's have it be literally broken on taking damage.

SEKAINov 30, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Velzard of Koz,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H04AAM3t,comment-id=00010003,timestamp=2017-11-30T13:05:04.954+0000)

Hey I know a way to balance it out. Let's have it be literally broken on taking damage.

It's a fake choice, because under anything outside of laning, it is almost no different to 2 second stun, because the outcome will pretty much be the same.

ExaggeratedToastNov 30, 20177 votes

Every champ is a problem if you don't understand strength and weaknesses (anyone ever see Yi' go off in a game? how about in LCS? yi has clear weak points that make him a weak pick in pro play)

if you play Zoe you will know she has clear weak points,

the worst is she is weak to head on champs she can't get max range Q's if you are pushing forward into her Q (same like nid, if you jump past the 50% distance it's damage is dramatically less.
part of her burst comes from the extra damage from you being asleep, so proper baiting of the ability is key to making her waste it
once she uses her E aggressively she is EVEN weaker to aggressive plays, she cant kite without it and
her R plays give you the ability to have extreme counter play, similar to how you expect LB or Zed and even Draven to be in a specific spot (i delete her with vel, easy knock up combo)
this one is overlooked but you have 1.5 sec to react to being hit by sleep, so you can actually zonyas right before you sleep or flash behind minions or far far away
and as a high skill cap champ, plenty of people missfire that Q hitting jungle camps or lane minions trying to get a good ranged shot it

she is very very strong and i wont disagree with that, but she has clear weaknesses and i think that makes her fair, plenty of champs have abilities people complain about but the truth is people have learned to counter and play against them and that's all they is left to do with zoe

GLHF guys

Pale PirateNov 30, 20172 votes

I'm pretty sure her base stats are low too (even for a mage).

RainbowIceeNov 30, 20174 votes

I mean i'm not saying she's OP or one of the strongest but she's decently safe to play TBH so that alone neglects most of your points because unless you get caught those shouldn't happen and at that point your points affect most of the champions in the whole game. She is high skill that's for sure but she does a ton of damage. And even having 1.5c to react she still has amazing range which can more than likely still pummel you. Her real counter in my honest opinion is the lane minions as her skill shots can't go past them so it makes it very easy to avoid her moves. After that it's more on Zoe end to get caught in a very bad situation especially when she can virtually fight behind terrain at full capacity. She's Not op, but has her perks. Her lanning phase is kinda meh especially vs a champ that pushes.

ExaggeratedToastNov 30, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I mean i'm not saying she's OP or one of the strongest but she's decently safe to play TBH so that alone neglects most of your points because unless you get caught those shouldn't happen and at that point your points affect most of the champions in the whole game. She is high skill that's for sure but she does a ton of damage. And even having 1.5c to react she still has amazing range which can more than likely still pummel you. Her real counter in my honest opinion is the lane minions as her skill shots can't go past them so it makes it very easy to avoid her moves. After that it's more on end to get caught in a very bad situation especially when she can virtually fight behind terrain at full capacity. She's Not op, but has her perks. Her lanning phase is kinda meh especially vs a champ that pushes.

Civil and solid argument: she's meh against pushing champs because she's weak against aggression which I did state... But the most important thing you point out is she isn't op and probably not the strongest champ atm, yet the complaints rain xD

KloqdqNov 30, 20172 votes

Don't forget her terrible, terrible wave clear.

The DeckownerNov 30, 20176 votes

Zoe's E is anything but narrow.

It also has a very fast projectile speed.

As well as extremely long range.

It's cc duration starts at 2s.

Basically no mana cost.

It's a 2 part cc that also slows you before putting you in sleep.

It's very hard to see it through walls(especially with the skin, P2W).

Did I mention that if she lands it in LITERALLY ANYTHING she get part of the cd refunded?

It's just a CertainlyT champion, you look at every ability of hers and 80% of the tines you question "why is this a thing?" and "why is this a thing too?"

Zane ZephyrNov 30, 20172 votes

They are changing it so only champion hits grant refunds but still

Also it makes her nuke of a Q unavoidable

InfernapeNov 30, 20175 votes

I think a lot of people's problems stem from the fact that its hitbox is kinda questionable and she's rewarded for actually missing it entirely.

MysterQNov 30, 20173 votes

And you can die from fog of war, even at 100%.

Sire HippingtonNov 30, 20175 votes

The reasons why zoe's E gets complained about but not the others:

she has very powerfull longranged followup on her cc, if ahead her E+Q can already kill squishies from full
it's 2 sec with no other conditions and straight from rank 1, nearly all others need to rank their spell up
she's a burst mage and not utillity focused, and even are rather utillity focused so haveing good CC is expected
She got a mobillity tool that helps setting up the cc
her E is rather easy to land compared to most of the others thx to the big aoe and short setup of the trap part and really fast cast time + misslespeed, and the range it can get through terrain is massive, and also makes it hard to predict. With other skillshots you roughly know how far they reach, with zoe it can get pretty tricky

Sure, in teamfights it's not that big of a deal, but it's very powerfull for catching peple from out of nowhere and then burst em down. And getting bursted 100-0 from fog of war with not much you can do about it is very frustraiting. Imo the main issue is how much damage it adds on top of the utillity, 220+0.4ap and another 220+0.4ap TRUEDAMAGE on the followup paired with her huge longranged Q damage gives way to much burst on a rather save combo.

Malix FarwinNov 30, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H04AAM3t,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-11-30T14:24:04.372+0000)

The reasons why zoe's E gets complained about but not the others:

she has very powerfull longranged followup on her cc, if ahead her E+Q can already kill squishies from full

If i land QE combo on you with sydra(a lot easier to do bcz its not blocked by minions) the follow will lead you to the same burst If i land a stun on Annie you are dead, if i land brand's stun combo you are dead, if i land Veigar's stun(or at least get you in the cage) you are dead. Get the trend?

it's 2 sec with no other conditions and straight from rank 1, nearly all others need to rank their spell up

okay but others are either not blocked by minions, what they max first, and/or last longer at max rank(morg Q).

she's a burst mage and not utillity focused, and even are rather utillity focused so haveing good CC is expected

Every Burst mage has CC designed long enough for them to kill you in it's duration, Zoe is 2 seconds because thats around the time it takes for her to set up her follow up.Also, none of those are burst mages and every last one of them are less squishy than Zoe.

She got a mobillity tool that helps setting up the cc That ability is not "mobility" it's a tool to extend range and that is a part of her design. Every burst mage has something to help them setup their combo.

her E is rather easy to land compared to most of the others thx to the big aoe and short setup of the trap part and really fast cast time + misslespeed, and the range it can get through terrain is massive, and also makes it hard to predict. With other skillshots you roughly know how far they reach, with zoe it can get pretty tricky Most others? annie's Q and R are not exactly difficult to land and Syndra's stun goes through minions with a larger range.

Sure, in teamfights it's not that big of a deal, but it's very powerfull for catching peple from out of nowhere and then burst em down. And getting bursted 100-0 from fog of war with not much you can do about it is very frustraiting. Imo the main issue is how much damage it adds on top of the utillity, 220+0.4ap and another 220+0.4ap TRUEDAMAGE on the followup paired with her huge longranged Q damage gives way to much burst on a rather save combo.

Guess who can do that? Every other Burst mage in the game.

AudiomancyNov 30, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H04AAM3t,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-11-30T14:24:04.372+0000) are rather utillity focused so haveing good CC is expected

How on earth does a 0.7 AP ratio two-target root, a 0.6 ratio AoE slow/damage field and a 3000-ish range 0.75 + 0.2 (passive) ratio nuke make you think "Yep, she's utility-focused!"?

Automated RivenDec 1, 20171 votes

she is tho. She has a two person snare and a teamwide shield. But she can also 100-0 a target every 24?? seconds. I havent checked with ultimate hat. checking to see what it is if she has fully stacked ultimate hat and kills someone with it.

Its 12.75 seconds if you get the kill.

Chembaron YamadaNov 30, 20173 votes

The only problem I have with that skill is that I don't understand why it gets that hugely enhanced range if you shoot it through walls.

Combined with how her Q and R work, it lets her get surprise kills from fog of war over walls and I don't know if that should really be a thing for her.

HupsisNov 30, 20173 votes

Difference is that Zoe is an artillery burst champion which means she can be out of sight radius while stunning and killing you (appearing only for a split second when extending the range of Q). Even Xerath, THE artillery champion, has to be within 1050 range in order to land his stun.

ExaggeratedToastNov 30, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Difference is that Zoe is an artillery burst champion which means she can be out of sight radius while stunning and killing you (appearing only for a split second when extending the range of Q). Even Xerath, THE artillery champion, has to be within 1050 range in order to land his stun.

the base range is 800. if you are mid lane she has to move out of center lane to make a range increase play, that alone means you have the ability to see it coming and counter play. in the case she uses r to position for a good E that usually means her q positioning shot is going to be delayed or tricky to land (no r anymore)

HupsisNov 30, 20172 votes

Base range 800 extended by 575 with her ult --> 1375 range. That's comparable to Xerath or Ziggs Q (both having 1400 max range). Also her E range through walls is the definition of an artillery ability.

ExaggeratedToastNov 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Base range 800 extended by 575 with her ult --> 1375 range. That's comparable to Xerath or Ziggs Q (both having 1400 max range). Also her E range through walls is the definition of an artillery ability.

not arguing it's range and definition (to which you are right btw). the argument i make to you is how abundantly clear it can be that a play is being made. although it's super scary in the jungle and this is where i think it's extremely strong, still though, proper warding does allow you to still see plays coming

also another note: her q range is 800 if she R's to E you (i've said this already) she has to cover that 575 distance to land the Q, so it's a bit of a wonky play... the better play is to go behind a wall to get the range and Q R in (also said this before) but you can see that play coming

HupsisNov 30, 20172 votes

The point is that OP listed a bunch of cc abilities which have around 1000 cast range while Zoe has potentially triple that range on her cc.

Simply warding the nearest corner isn't gonna guarantee that you are safe from her reach.

ExaggeratedToastNov 30, 20172 votes

{quoted}

The point is that OP listed a bunch of cc abilities which have around 1000 cast range while Zoe has potentially triple that range on her cc.

Simply warding the nearest corner isn't gonna guarantee that you are safe from her reach.

natural ward placements will see her coming to cast that E (tribush/riverbush bot same in top lane) mid is harder cuz she can go in the outlets on the outside of river...but if you are laning against her you can see her walk over

ŚhunpoNov 30, 20173 votes

None of those champions you mentioned deal DOUBLE DAMAGE after hitting their key CC ability.....

LazyW0lfNov 30, 20173 votes

It's a 2 part CC that starts off with a slow and puts you to sleep. Like you said, it has a max of 2 seconds but can be broken early. The "Drowsy" effect cannot be cleansed therefore it is a constant 1.5 second slow that makes it harder to avoid the incoming Q. If she lands it, 10%-30% (Based on level) of the cooldown is refunded. but even if she misses it, it still only has ~8 second cooldown at max cdr. If she misses, it becomes a 4 second long trap.

The risk/reward on this ability in insanely favored for the Zoe player, since there's few bad outcomes later into the game. It has too much impact on the game to have such a short cd. It's basically a blitz hook level ability on a spammable cooldown.

PROJECT KatarìnaNov 30, 20173 votes

I honestly dont see why people are complaining about zoe she is pretty okay tbh not even strong or weak she has no nobility and both her q and e are skillshots that can be dodged with relative ease her e has a delay to the cc , my guess is people dont really keep track of where zoe is (wards/game awareness) and are surprised that they get hit by her e over a wall.

BrightWîngsNov 30, 20172 votes

idc about any of her abilities but her W that shit just needs to go im sorry its not ok when you can dump ignite exhaust and a gun blade on a enemy when all they got is a damn long sword lol being able to just expend free summoner spells that you shouldn't have to begin with is just unfair.

PePsiLemoNNNov 30, 20172 votes

Let's see.

Do those champions 1shot you afterwards? Do their abilities remain on the ground with a retarded hitbox if they miss? Can they have like 3 barriers in a row?

AudiomancyNov 30, 20172 votes

Lux Xerath Zyra Ahri can't 100-0?

Are you playing against bots by any chance?

PePsiLemoNNNov 30, 20171 votes

Never got 1shot by ONE ability of those but ok

AudiomancyDec 1, 20172 votes

I've never been 1shot by Zoe either. I've been killed by her EQ together, just like how I've killed people with just QR as Lux or QW as Veigar.

DoktorKaiserNov 30, 20172 votes

You forgot the mention that Zoe's E has 10 times bigger range than most of those other skillshots which is the real reason why its broken as fuck. Not to mention that it allows her to 1 shot, makes it easy for rest of her team to collapse, is spammable, if you miss it doesn't matter you will hit someone else most of the time and it's hard as fuck to see, that one might only for me personally, but I just can't see that shit its so fast and blurry. For fucks sake stop defending this festering tumor, another one from our beloved CertainlyT, even Faker himself said this champion is broken beyond belief.