Can Tahm only apply fish stacks with his autos?

Tentakill Myself·Dec 19, 2015·86 votes·3,353 views

His Q gives him a massive ass slow that allows him to catch up to his target to allow him to attack them. Why should it only require him to attack the target 2 times then?

57 Comments

Odyssey85Dec 20, 201520 votes

Ugh, another TahmKench thread. I guess he's still in the circle of hate for the boards, along with Yasuo , or whoever else people don't know how to play against. So I'll do what I always do in the Kench hate thread, play out his weaknesses, so you're welcome:

LOW MOBILITY Seriously, his speed definitely fits his model, real slow. If Kench is caught out, then there isn't much he can do to escape if you've got a few of your buddies to pick him off. Though he does take a while to kill, but not like Mundo level, but he's plenty durable. CC is detrimental to him since he then can't apply stacks, and then continue to go from there. DON'T ATTACK IF YOU'RE AT FULL STACKS. You'll only get yourself killed if you're low, can't stress this enough, just bail and let your allies finish him as he tries to finish you. Which leads to my next point...
TARGET THE SQUISHIES Don't waste your time with focusing him, it's time consuming, as mentioned earlier. Instead, focus his carry, as he then is forced to make a choice; either eat his ally, or eat the enemy. Both ways have a up and downside, but if he's smart, he'll eat the ally. Now, he's used up his W, and you're free to get kill on this guy and his little prize inside. And with the nerf on Tahm no longer getting MS with an ally in his mouth, just walking towards them, you'll be free to chase him to your heart's content as he, as mentioned earlier, IS SLOW AF.
WEAK PRE-SIX This right here. Abuse the shit out of this. Before 6, Kench is not as overbearing as he is late-game, so use this to your advantage. Since his mana costs have to be managed early-game, just bully him hard, along with say a carry with him, and go all out on him, he can't really do much damage unless you're outnumbered big time. And as mentioned with his other weaknesses, those still are in play, even more so in fact, since he won't have boots yet, so even slower fat catfish, and his w doesn't give him a speed up, so that helps. And finally...
**THIS AND THIS ** If he's that much of a problem, you know you have these two items here, right? These items are literally DESIGNED to mess up champs like Kench, and even beforehand, and are both such cheap items to put into your build, ABUSE THEM. I don't know how many times I utterly destroy people as Kench and the carries don't even go for these powerful items for them. If you don't take this clear advantage for yourself, then that's your fault, not the enemy Tahm Kench. You're just playing right into his mouth, and you'll get punished for it. Also, one word: . This Van Helsing knockoff can make quick work of him thanks to her silver bolts.

So, enough of my rant, so I hoped you board peoples have learned a thing or two I've learned. While I'll get downvoted for not blindly agreeing with the masses, at least I would know how to build against The River King. Have a great time in LoL folks. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

ZT XperimentorDec 20, 20153 votes

More people need to read this!

KoechopheDec 20, 201517 votes

I actually agree that Tahm gets too much hate. That being said... **

Name a tank support that has GOOD mobility. ** Low mobility is a definiing attribute of tank supports. Alistar, Leona, Thresh, Braum, nautilus... all of them have barely any mobility to speak of. Blitz is probably the only exception, and he's not even innately tanky. He's most often played as an offtank because he lacks aoe presence in teamfights, and is something of a 1 trick pony. 2) "Target the squishies" is a stupid, generic argument. Not to sound harsh, but I'm sick and tired of hearing this. Back when Cinderhulk was broken, everyone was like "just don't target them". Tanks not only have insanely nasty CC, but they disrupt, sitting in the front line so the damage dealers can get away. Tahm does a LOT of damage; I'd throw numbers at you, but suffice it to say, if you ignore him, he will punish you dearly for it. Ignoring him is in no way a solution, and most of the time the damage dealers can get away without his help. Even if they cant, having to eat one doesn't impede tahm's ability to damage you with his tongue, or to soak up more damage. 3) Agreed. More people should realize this. He's weak pre-6 not only because he doesn't have his ult adding damage to literally everything, his mana costs are actually oppresive early on (none of them scale). 4) Those items don't deal with him particularly well tbh. Armor pen isn't much of a thing because he builds more health than armor. GIant slayer is nice, but 15% more damage isn't going to cause him to melt. The real problem is his shield, which can effectively double his HP bar.

Here are some of my own thoughts.

Force tahm to shield. This is the best way to deal with him. Damage the crap out of him and force him to shield, so that he can't get the HP back.
Wait for his shield to decay. People attack him while he's shielded all the time, and it's pointless. Just wait for the thing to expire; it;ll go away on its own really fast.
Use walls of flesh. Tahm has no stickiness without being either in melee range or in skill shot range of you. Put tanky people in between you and your valuable targets, it cuts away his ability to get to them and/or attack them.

Rubber JesusDec 20, 20151 votes

Honestly, his stacks should fall off after you use an empowered ability. This would fix a lot. It's really crazy he can stick to someone like Ahri if he has stacks. He just uses a ranged stun that last 1.5 s, then eats them for 6 seconds, then stuns again for 1.5s. This is 9 seconds of CC, back to back. I don't know of any other champs who can stack back to back. Braum stuns on his, but they don't stay on so he can immediately stun after the 8 sec CD. They fall off, the count starts over.

Edit: I stand corrected. That is 7.75 seconds of hard CC. Stun for 1.5, devour for 6 seconds, regurgitate with .25 second stun.

SpecterVonBarenDec 20, 20154 votes

Except his W removes all stacks....

BiffoloDec 20, 20152 votes

His q doesn't though I don't think.

Rubber JesusDec 24, 20151 votes

My bad. 7.75 seconds of hard CC. So, yeah, 7.75 seconds of straight CC.

You and I both forgot that his W also stuns for .25s. I'm assuming that you did because you didn't mention that.

So, let's see.

1.5 second stun with base (no AP) 80-260 magic damage, depending on rank, with the enemy at 3 stacks with a Q. Stacks remain. Devour champion for 4-6 seconds, depending on rank with W. Regurgitate champion dealing 20-32% max health damage, depending on rank, by reactivating W.

Also, post rank 6, your Q and W deal an additional 20 (+ 4/6/8% bonus health). The damage will likely be around 20 + 40-280 from rank 6 up to end game. That's 1000 extra health (from Sightstone/Relic or Cinderhulk/Tank item, with runes/masteries) at rank 6 to 3,500 at end game. It is very easy to get over 6K life on him and that 3,500 is a conservative estimate.

If Q and W are max rank at level 11, that is 260 (+140 from R passive) + 32% max health (+ 140 from R passive) = 540 + 32% max health in damage.

Not done! See after you spit them out they are stunned for .25 seconds. This gives you time to Q them again, because Q's cooldown is the same length of time as his devour ability. So you get another freebie 70% slow with 260 damage. Auto attack two times during the 2 second slow, and you can eat them again for 6 seconds. Now, granted if it is a mobile champion with dashes or anyone with Flash on cooldown, they might get away at this time. More than likely, however, they will be dead and unable to do so.

So that's my synopsis on the Tahm Kench CC chain. You're welcome. :)

Edit: Wish I could have seen a Tahm Kench with a DFG. The burst!

DengedenDec 20, 20152 votes

All of them can at least dash to enemies. Braum can dash to allies.

I like your other points though. I have a hard time putting weaknesses into words because I play largely on intuition.

Odyssey85Dec 20, 20155 votes

I'm glad I'm not the only one whose tired of TahmKench hate circle-jerk threads, so I thank you for the support (heh, since he's a support) and I'm glad you explained your reasoning of my words instead of downvoting and blatantly stating I'm wrong. Allow me to explain myself:

As for low mobility, if this is such a defining characteristic of all these champs you've mentioned, then wouldn't it be beneficial to use this to your advantage? This has happened quite a lot when I play Kench and it definitely keeps me away from the carries and allows enemies to escape.
Targeting the squishies. Personally, I always thought this strategy works better than putting all your effort into him, since with him focusing the enemies, he won't be able to eat his ally in time, in the end someone will die, and could tip the scales into your favor. But perhaps you're right, CC-ing him could be more effective than ignoring him completely, or maybe go for him and the ADC at the same time, forcing him to use devour on them? Then you can track them down for a bit while his W is on CD, try your best, I don't face that many Kench's, but I play him a lot, so this is just what seems to best me. I disrupt the enemy team, and help my carry in any way possible, putting saving the weak over eating enemies.
Don't really need to say much
Let me be completely honest here, I've never, and I mean NEVER seen & built before, no exaggeration. I've always thought these items would be useful in shutting him down in theory, but since I don't know how they would function in the first place, I'm just stating that I would believe would be effective, sorry about that. I thought the would help with his regen from his E passive, and would be helpful as well since he will always out-health you. I guess I don't have any first rate knowledge on these items, my apologies. Maybe would be good? Probably not though

And as for your ideas, I do like them, I should've remembered to put those down as well, so you're completely right as well. Not using your shield at the right time is what can get you killed, and once it's gone, you'll be as good as dead. So, thanks for your input as well

Silents429Dec 20, 20152 votes

I fully agree with this, while also think making a user immune to a second helping of his passive similar to Braum and Nautilus would ease the annoying aspects of him without really affecting his mains much.

At the same time, I am curious why nobody complains about Nautilus having an even higher lockdown then Tahm, while dishing out some moderate damage himself. (Not saying he is a problem just a comparison)

RISE Shlack123Dec 20, 20151 votes

You have a good point on both fronts. The passive should drop off just like it does with other similar mechanics.

As for the Nautilus , I have a friend who used to run him full tank with a item 3151 and do around the top damage in the game consistently. It was stupid. :P

Silents429Dec 20, 20151 votes

I still run item 3151 on him if my team needs my E to hurt more.

TacoKingIIIDec 21, 20151 votes

Low mobility... Swiftness boots with alacrity/furor=problem solved. If he lands his Q on you then even without boots he can easily catch up to you.

PennsDec 19, 201512 votes

Actually, he doesnt need to attack the target at all since his passive decays after 7 seconds and his Q has 6 seconds cooldown ( ͡° ᴥ ͡°)

Lime JoshDec 19, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Actually, he doesnt need to attack the target at all since his passive decays after 7 seconds and his Q has 6 seconds cooldown ( ͡° ᴥ ͡°)

@ what? level 1 with no CD items/%?

YumaS2AstralDec 19, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lime Josh,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GzOTc4dY,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-12-19T18:20:30.561+0000)

@ what? level 1 with no CD items/%?

The cooldown on his Q don't even scale. It is always 6 seconds (assuming no CDR)

DurzakaDec 19, 20158 votes

Yep. His Q doesnt scale with lvl for CD. it is a flat 6 seconds.

The slow does scale drastically though, so chaining Qs at level 1 is much harder than at level 9.

I7A6X2v2Dec 19, 201511 votes

Another QQ thread about too "op"

ShadowParkerDec 19, 20157 votes

Are you trying to say he's not?

I7A6X2v2Dec 19, 20157 votes

He is not op at all because he has no real dmg (he can't kill u in less than 5 secs unlike ) and he has no mibility like , so he is not op.

MelledoneusDec 19, 201513 votes

Oh, so I was just imagining my health disappearing when that full tank Tahm ate me.

ZT XperimentorDec 20, 20154 votes

On noes, one of the slowest champions can deal noticeable damage and survive more than 2 hits. Try facing a good; yasou, fizz, talon, leesin, kindred, ekko, kalista; and tell me how frustrating kench is in comparison.

MelledoneusDec 20, 20153 votes

Name one other tank that can delete other tanks with his damage.

(Also, all those champions you mentioned are squishy when building damage)

ShonjlDec 20, 20152 votes

This guy kinda has a point. Like I never died to a Sejuani or Braum before. At least Darius or Garen have to build BC and SG to deal decent damage on top of being tanky.

ZT XperimentorDec 20, 20151 votes

Amumu & chogath if built ap, garen under specific circumstances, mordekaiser & sion before their rework, udyr & volibear late game

MelledoneusDec 21, 20151 votes

They're not tanks if they're being built AP. They're tanky mages.

Garen is a juggernaut. Not a tank.

Mordekaiser is also a juggernaut. Sion has been reworked, so that doesn't apply to current balance.

Udyr and Volibear are tanky fighters. They are NOT tanks.

ZT XperimentorDec 21, 20151 votes

Their label doesn't change because they build differently; likewise their kits make them more tanky regardless of items.

Juggernauts are just fancy bruisers; like fighters they can be built offensively &/or defensively and still be effective. Hence why I said specific circumstances & before their reworks ruined them.

They again have mechanics in their kits making them more durable than most other champions that happen without items; scaling by level, again like I previously said, late game. Vi is a fighter, volibear is a bruiser; he's still closer to being a tank than you think.

Think through before attempting to dispute.

MelledoneusDec 21, 20151 votes

I asked specifically for tanks, not "tanky sub-classes."

Tanks build specifically items that aid in survivability and debilitating enemy champions with slows and/or ways to punish carries for punishing them or being out of position. This does not include damage that can on its own fight a carry. Your examples do not fit this description.

Instead of telling me that I need to think before attempting to dispute, read carefully before trying to redefine common soecific terms.

ZT XperimentorDec 21, 20151 votes

Uh-huh, there's no 'pure' tank as nearly every champion has a subtype.

Have you looked through the item lists? There's items that cover both quite well; Rod of ages gives noticeable health and ap; making amumu both durable and dangerous. Same thing with the crystal scepter & torment, health & ability power in the same item. Black cleaver, health & armor shred; titanic hydra, health and attack damage, it's easily possible to build both ways simultaneous.

Now you're covering up by blaming semantics, got any technical data worth reading instead? Screen shots, videos, cited quotes?

MelledoneusDec 21, 20151 votes

All I have to say is you need to do your research.

For example, look up the LoL definition of a tank.

ZT XperimentorDec 21, 20151 votes

Things are named in video games after their real life equivalents. Ever read a history book? Tanks deal much more damage than a mere jeep, but they often lack the capacity to as they are unwieldy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3_i1TZSDGs

MelledoneusDec 21, 20151 votes

"Tanks are durable, front-line champions that help lock down enemies and start fights. They're usually found leading the charge, choosing the right times and situations to initiate aggression. Many tanks can also protect their more fragile teammates by stunning or pushing around dangerous foes and limiting their damage potential."

Straight from the LoL wiki. Nowhere does it say that tanks have to have damage, but since they already have CC and durability Riot tends to not give them damage for balancing reasons. I mean, if Shen had his passive scale off of half of his HP or something ridiculous like that, he wouldn't need his carries to win fights.

ZT XperimentorDec 22, 20151 votes

However tanks are not without damage, the only champion with the capacity of no damage is leblanc, her clone specifically states it cannot deal damage. If tanks literally did no damage, then the game would become even more boring than it has become from the increasing lack of variety. While kench isn't as overloaded as the previous champions (kindred, yasou, ekko, kalista, ext), his kit is rather dull without the quick fix of a damage boost. I'm surprised it wasn't a level scaling instead of a health scale, but that's riot, inept balancing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtGXfdDJYp4&t=95

DurzakaDec 20, 20157 votes

So he isnt OP... Because he doesnt deal assassin level damage while being an unkillable tank?

Do you even understand how stupid you sound?

ÄrtoriasDec 20, 20152 votes

There is a difference between a full tank Tahm doing tons of work in a teamfight (Lots of Defense/HP/Good CC/Good Damage) and assassins which are literally built to delete squishys and get out

How to not die to assasins Step 1: Buy this if AP item 3157 Step 2: Buy this if ad item 3140 Step 3: Still need more get this item 3026

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs] Good Luck in solo queue!

Phoenix Kotori Dec 20, 20151 votes

Step 2: Buy this if ad

the thing is you still take the 20-32% of max hp even if you QSS it, that's silly, imo.

Spizzle9000Dec 19, 20153 votes

Or, even better imo: just balance him by making it so he cannot devour the same champion for 10 seconds after he spits them out.

DurzakaDec 20, 20152 votes

That wouldnt be much of a nerf.

Until lvl 13 his Devour's CD is LONGER than 10 seconds. And even at max lvl, his Devour has a 10 second CD. And most Kench's only get SV for CDR, so a 9 second CD being changed to a 10 second CD. Almost unnoticeable in this game.

Spizzle9000Dec 20, 20152 votes

Ah, valid point. Well, then 15. :D

HellChimeDec 20, 20153 votes

He has no AoE, no escapes and can only focus one target. ONE. With his passive.

And if you do any kind of damage when he tries to ult away, it will stop it completely and go on FULL cooldown. His ult is very slow too.

FredartDec 20, 20153 votes

Tahm isn't a support so stop trying to get a fun mage nurfed like you fools did to janna.

I GANK LANESDec 19, 20152 votes

was expecting a fish dicks joke, was disappointed upon entering said thread

Monkey D LuffyDec 19, 20151 votes

or better yet rework tahms whole kit... his w, the only unique thing about him is broken and well he was a failed champ tbh...

ShadowParkerDec 19, 20153 votes

He literally only needs tuning. But alright.

NeswiiDec 19, 20157 votes

So his E isn't unique? Who else uses damage taken as a shield? And his ult, I just love how twisted fate can carry other people when he teleports!

PaladinNODec 19, 20153 votes

And his ult, I just love how twisted fate can carry other people when he teleports!

Well, they tried, but it didn't work.

https://youtu.be/_V27xGRRUdM?list=CLzXrYbs_SVGY&t=53

DengedenDec 20, 20151 votes

Not a bad idea actually but I doubt it would be enough to cleanse your hatred of him.

Guyy FieriDec 20, 20151 votes

His AA is so small tho that if he can only do that, it would be useless in lane.

AezanthyaDec 20, 20151 votes

Tbh the only thing that needs to change is the way is passive removal works : atm you only lose one charge after X seconds. Imo it should work like that : if tahm does not apply another stack to you in X second, all the marks are gone.

Tada, problem solved.