Let's hear both sides on the upcoming Evelynn VGU

mirAcIe·Sep 28, 2016·20 votes·2,659 views

So far, a certain amount of people was pretty vocal about whatever they want Evelynn to become. Practically, they've been using Evelynn as a canvas to make their own vision of a "stealthy succubus assassin" type of champion. Lots of ideas have been shared, with some feedback from Rioters.

But here's a thing: sure, lots of you want Evelynn to be changed completely into something else, because you don't like her current state. So it would only make sense to gamble and change her into whatever, because you don't lose absolutely anything as the result, right?

Well, for some of you maybe.

But as far as I know there are people who actually care about what Evelynn is right now and they see past arbitrary excuses like "she has no identity". I mean, come on, it's not like every single champion is played exactly to its theme. Ziggs is a bomb-obsessed maniac and all he is a waveclear machine to stall games? People make this ridiculous critiques towards Evelynn, like everything about her is supposed to perfectly make sense while most of the champions wouldn't be able to live up to these standards. Why is she being judged so hard?

I get it, you don't like her, you don't play her and the idea of her becoming something else that you might like is cool and all. But I think that's not the right way to look at things. Evelynn is no old Sion or Urgot with 0 playerbase. She's played consistently by quite a lot of people and Riot has been doing a stellar job at not letting her become "too viable". So what's the problem?

The problem, as I see it, that so far Riot has been acting like they only receive and consider feedback from people who want to completely tear Evelynn down and turn her into something else while other people who are content with Evelynn (and naturally less vocal about it) are not being counted at all. And I find this quite unfair, because it looks like we're giving up our favorite champion for the sake of entertaining other players who don't even care about her.

How I personally see it:

Evelynn needs her visuals updated;
Evelynn needs at least one "good" skin;
Evelynn doesn't need to be torn down, if you were more informed on the subject, you'd see that she's more defined and effective as a champion and an archetype than some of the champions who aren't even scheduled for a rework.

Share your thoughts as well.

64 Comments

AwoofSep 28, 20169 votes

I wish that succubus nonsense would stop going around. Mostly cause I fear that either they actually go that route and screw her up, or that they change her outfit drastically to avoid the people thinking "skimpy=succubus".

WinTheWarOnPantsSep 28, 20162 votes

totally agree with the succubus part not so much about the outfit part. riot made some really bad design choices back then since they were churning out champs left and right with very little thought. her outfit was just a cliche that they hadn't used yet so they used it. don't misunderstand me though. i don't mind her being scantily clad just that there is no reason for her outfit currently. if they did something like developed her "hate spikes" into her actually growing spikes like marrow form marvel comics and her clothes would be shedded http://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/6/62795/3836957-marrow.jpg or they added a detail like "her skin reacts with shadows/ darkness" then there is a reason for her show a lot of skin. right now there is no reason other than "your pain is my pleasure" = BDSM = rito so imaginative lol

SylvantSep 28, 20165 votes

I main Eve and choose her as my favorite shortly after i started playing league some years ago(before her first major rework). I didnt start to play her back then, but as soon as she got reworked and fit better in the meta, i enjoyed her alot. There are two key features she posses- Stealth and Hybrid. The first is quite "obvious". She has that perma stealth, which is so problematic. The second is her versatility. She not only does hybrid damage, scale of both AP and AD, but also can use various item features like spell effects, on-hit, spellblade etc. She is seen played in many ways, as Ap assassin, bruiser, AD, or even tank. I find those features to be defining and a rework should keep them as much as possible. Shifting her towards extremes, to be only AP assassin, or AD, or whatever, or some new freak champ like Ekko will push the champion away of her long living identity. It might be pleasant for certain amount of players, but it will certainly hurt the most important community- her fans. There isnt just Eve fans. There is the AD Eve fans, there are the Hybrid Eve fans, there are the AP assassin, or bruiser fans. You cant simply ignore either of those players, they are the ones who supported the champion for so long and the road was not a pleasant one, i assure you. Please dont take the simple and easy solution to indulge the general league sentiment, which is mostly built by players that dont care about the champion and only care to have their own comfort. Dont just put the champion in some conventional brackets, to fit it easy in the meta. Keep its identity and reward her real player base. We deserve it.

LethewardsSep 29, 20164 votes

Playing Evelynn has this subtle nuanced feel, and many new players that pick her up know that they're 200% using her passive ineffectively, but won't attempt to master it because of the number of games required and lack of "flashy" outplays à la Zed or Yasuo. The lack of guidance on how how her passive should be used is viewed as a source of frustration in some cases, but as a source of deep mastery by others.

With that said it's important to play attention to her existing player base, who contrary to popular opinion do not all build her AP with Rylai's Crystal Scepter. Many of us play her as an AP assassin, but plenty of us remember Season 4 AD Triforce Eve, Season 5 Frozen Heart + Locket Tank Eve, as well as Rylai's + Liandry's burn build Eve. And now we have Protobelt Eve. These builds and other strange combinations should all be viable on this reworked Eve. Part of the fun of playing Evelynn was forever experimenting with strange item combinations and winning games because the entire item shop was at my disposal to counter build the enemy team.

A lot of people don't like her ultimate, but I do. It's an amazing engage tool for AD Tank Evelynn. Possibly one of the best engages in league.

I'd recommend checking out this reddit thread where Eve mains describe what is "core" to them. https://www.reddit.com/r/EvelynnMains/comments/52bv7e/what_is_evelynns_core_to_you/

TeCoolMageSep 28, 20163 votes

Old Sion and Galio have player bases what are you saying

WinTheWarOnPantsSep 29, 20163 votes

aside from building tank eve, she is the most assassin like assassin in the game IMO. she has really low dmg early and even later she plays around isolating her targets. she uses stealth to carefully slide between enemies to get to her low HP/vulnerable target. i was just playing eve vs shaco and noticed how much healthier her assassinations are than his and all the other assassins. other assassins brute force their way to the target with a massive amount of mobility and/or stealth to get right up to them and burst the enemy 100-0 in most cases. eve on the other hand waits for her prey to be vulnerable(low HP early, or isolated late game). she doesn't have a dash so you know all the possible directions she will come from. pink warding well is very good against her since unlike shaco, kha and other assassins she cant bypass them by simply dashing over a wall. it is incredibly hard if not impossible for her to get through a group of enemies to get to her target unlike other assassins, and she is countered by positioning and reaction time. even if she manages to stealth up to you she still has to close the distance(ignoring flash) this gives you time to react especially if you're waiting for it. assassin like shaco on the other had can walk up right behind you giving you 0 time to do anything about it if you didn't prepare ahead of time(ie pink wards(that he can bypass)). when i played against shaco i could almost never kill him because the second i got in range he flashed out with his E. I on the other hand was killed by him a few time from him hopping walls and walking right up in my face making his auto shyv combo 100% undodgeable even with flash. walking pass multiple enemies that were one step away from seeing you and killing that low hp target trying to back is the most satisfying thing in league IMO. Eve need very little changes 1. visual 2. her ult(i would like a low range dash that grabs the target, making her invisible for a short time if she kills the target). everything else about BAE is perfect and that's why she is BAE.

TequilaZombieOct 3, 20161 votes

Her assassination patterns are healthier than Shaco's, but she also has an escape-ish ability for when she finishes the job, which he lacks.

With that said, I feel like Shaco and Eve are the healthiest assassins in the game. Both are weaker (stat wise) than most of League's rooster and have to actually plan their kills.

Zed and Talon on the other hand just brute force their way in AND out, not giving a single fuck to whoever is standing near their target because they can just use their ults to get out.

I truly wish that the Assassin update leads assassins to a more calculated risk playstyle instead of "I press all those buttons really fast and you die"

WinTheWarOnPantsOct 3, 20161 votes

glad you said escape-"ISH" cause her W has a massive amount of weaknesses for it to be called a true escape ability. whenever i hear rioters talk about escape in a kit they are always talking about mobility. i have never seen a movespeed buff called an escape before. i have a hard time calling shaco a healthy assassin because of one thing on his kit and that's his deceive. specifically the blink portion of it. it's the truest form of a "get out of everything free card" since it's instant, you have zero indication of direction, and it has "in-combat" stealth at the end. the only time pink wards do anything to him (which is literally the only counter to stealth(not including RekSai )) is if used defensively. offensive pink wards simply get bypassed or at best you see his general direction. unlike eve, when his stealth is up trying to kill him is a complete waste of time. eve is countered by true sight, but she isn't invincible if you don't have it. I'll admit that i'm in no way the most knowledgeable about shaco and his counter play and i would love to be enlightened if it exists. there are a number of other problems with shaco vs eve another being attack and escape routs. shaco has unlimited of both where as eve can only go where she can run. when i play against a shaco i just play much safer until i out scale if i do at all. pretty much never try to punish/catch him because its almost always completely pointless with how much safety he has in his kit. as far as i can tell the only counter play to shaco is a bad shaco.

TequilaZombieOct 3, 20161 votes

item 3364 has a pretty damn big radius. If he tries to Q in any direction that's not straight ahead, it should catch him.

item 3092 Count to 3 and press it. The ghosts will lead you to Shaco. Bonus points to using it if he has item 3117 , as the ghost puts him into combat, taking 90 extra mov speed out of him on top of their slow.

Apart from that, Shaco has one of the weakest base damages out of any assassin. At least for the reliable part. The one thing he can be sure of ever damaging an enemy with is his Q and E. His box and clone explosion are hugely dependent on enemies mistakes (and that's where most of his power budget is).

While his Q is an amazing ability, it also takes a lot of Shaco's power budget. And it is on a 11 seconds CD. He either gets in a fight or out of it with it. Never both.

Best counterplay to Shaco is to bait him. Once a Shaco uses his Q as a gap closer he's either killing his target or dying. There's no middle ground. A large portion of his burst is also slow (to an assassin's standarts), which is his second AA after QE to proc thunderlords. So quick burst champions, champions with CC and tanks all crap on him, even if he gets to engage on them first.

Shaco by itself is a weak champion who requires either gold advantage or situational advantage (enemy is low/just blew important CD/stepped into a box) to assassinate someone. The nice part is that he is given the tools to get both the gold advantage or force a situational one.

A fed Shaco is cancerous as fuck, and he is a champion with all the tools to get fed. But once he falls behind his lack of consistent base damage ensures he stays that way.

TL;DR: get him to fall behind. Buy detection tools. Out smart him.

WinTheWarOnPantsOct 3, 20161 votes

item 3364 is a good counter tool that i forgot to mention and forget to use more often than i should. unless you are sup item 3092 isn't really an option but i understand that it's good against him. you went a little off after that im afraid, sayin his box and his clone are most of his budget then saying his Q takes alot of his budget... im mean that's all but one of his abilities lol so obviously that's alot/ most of his power budget. i would correct you by saying that his deceive contains most of his power budget and it is what his kit truly revolves around. there are very few champs in league that wouldn't give up any of their basic spells to get shaco Q since its one probs the top 5 strongest basic spells in the game. also i can see how killing the clone is depended on enemy mistakes, but not walking into an IVISIBLE trap or attack the right shaco when there is literally no way of telling the 2 apart(aside from the shaco playing making a mistake and giving it away) can hardly be said to be in the hands of the person playing against shaco. "Best counterplay to Shaco is to bait him." if this is true then you are openly admitting that he is unhealthy. a champ that's best counter play weakness is whether the player of that champ will let himself be baited is not healthy. if you want to rephrase then i won't hold it against you lol you're gonna need to elaborate on "get him to fall behind". there is only one really detection tool item 2043 since item 3364 and item 3092 are both reactionary and dependent of your role and the champ your playing.

PS. i hope i don't come across as being rude at any time, because i'm not tyring to be and I legit would like to know how to play against shaco.

TequilaZombieOct 3, 20161 votes

sayin his box and his clone are most of his budget then saying his Q takes alot of his budget...

My bad. Let me make myself a bit more clear.

Box and Clone take a huge portion of the damage on his kit. More precisely 1360 damage, out of the 1570 base damage he has on his kit. As a side note, most AD assassins sit at 1000-ish base damage. This is a great part of his power budget when it comes to damage.

Q is an insane ability in itself, providing a blink, instant stealth and a granted crit with 20% more damage on it. It's insanely powerful. This is a great part of his power budget when it comes to utility.

If a champion's kit had 10 power points to be put in it's budget, Shaco would have sneaked some aditional points and cranked that up to 15.

However, he pays heavily for it. His clone damage is not reliable at all. It depends on the enemy making a mistake or having the player wait 18 seconds to detonation. It is the most delayed damage in the entire game. His box need 2 seconds to enter stealth and need another 5 to dish out their full damage. This makes the boxes and the clone unreliable as hell.

walking into an INVISIBLE trap or attack the right shaco when there is literally no way of telling the 2 apart(aside from the shaco playing making a mistake and giving it away) can hardly be said to be in the hands of the person playing against shaco.

Making a box nest takes forever. It has 14 seconds CD. The boxes last 1 minute. If you put 4 boxes, the first one will be gone in 4 seconds and it will be a waste of mana.

This is where the game turns into a battle of game knowledge instead of game mechanics (which is what I love about Shaco). It's early game and you are his enemy jungler? Change your routes, quickly secure your buffs and avoid his level 2 cheese. Unless my laners get lv 1 first blood, I usually take it on Shaco because people refuse to adapt. If he's boxing a place in your jg is probably the wraiths bush or somewhere between Red and Krugs (on blue buff side, he might make a trap between blue and wolves). Change your route a bit and you can easily avoid it.

Telling Clone from Shaco appart is pretty easy. The clone always has a small delay, so the real Shaco has faster reactions. You can also be a dick to Shaco players and ping Shaco before he can ult. The ping will stay on the real Shaco. Apart from that, throw one AoE that hits both. The one with more health is the real Shaco. Or look and see how much your health bar goes down when they AA. The one dealing more damage is Shaco.

"Best counterplay to Shaco is to bait him."

Well, it is. Force his Q and he's a free kill for the next 11 seconds. Just like you bait a Darius E when you're a ranged top laner, a Yasuo's windwall when you're a ranged midlaner or an Ekko Ult whenever.

Baiting abilities is an important part of League. Having a fall back plan against Shaco is extremely useful. Heal/Barrier can often times turn a gank against him. Having a team mate waiting in a bush will, in 100% of the times, result in a dead Shaco. item 3053 and item 3003 are life savers and can easily turn a fight in your favor vs Shaco. His burst is not that high and most of his targets can fight him back if they have one of those items. If you plan on split pushing alone as an ADC, item 3072 is also great, as the shield will likely be up and give you enough bulk to survive his burst.

Comparing Shaco counterplay (don't wander off alone) to other assassins, like Zed, and Talon, he's pretty damn healthy. Those 2 can just go in and get out while killing you faster than your team can kill them.

Not taking into account CC, of course. But CC buttfucks everyone.

Fighting against a Shaco is more of a Game Knowledge war than a Mechanic Skill battle. He's reasonably simple, all point and click stuff and unless you're Yasuo/Jax/Shen/Panth there is no blocking or dodging any of his damage. You have to outsmart the player.

"Outsmart anyone you can't beat, and beat anyone you can't outsmart." ― Trundle

PS. i hope i don't come across as being rude at any time, because i'm not tyring to be and I legit would like to know how to play against shaco.

Don't worry.

ZettoSep 29, 20163 votes

As an Eve main I believe a few things. First of all, she needs a graphics/visuals update, and frankly, a non-recolor skin. Second of all, frankly I think her kit is fine just the way it is. Minus a small change to the Q regarding targeting I really don't think her kit needs work. And third, she needs major work on her lore. Right now I can't really say I don't want them to change anything regarding her lore, cause frankly there isn't much they can change. We know very little about her, or how she does what she does, IE the spikes from Q and ult.

As far as her kit goes, while I understand that it suffers a lot from the perma stealth on her passive, I think it works well. She's very versatile, being able to be built in a variety of ways and still be viable, while still having clear weaknesses, in the form of her general lack of a non-slow CC, as well as her own vulnerability to range and CC.

Regarding the W in particular, I honestly think this is one of the better designed gap-closer abilities for assassins. When not hitting enemies its cooldown is pretty decent, and provides a way for eve to get in close without making her unescapable, which is something we see problems with regarding champions like rengar, LB, Zed, and the like, as well as rewards her for getting a kill without giving her an instant easy way out.

Though some people don't like the ult because it seems to clash with her kit/theme a little, I think it's fine, as it's meant to be an ability that facilitates her assassination, not an actual way of assassinating. It gives her a decent shield to protect her as she goes in, which synergizes with the W, and can whittle multiple enemies down to a point where she can assassinate them. Though it could use some work on the particles, I'm totally fine with it as an ability.

TLDR: Update the graphics/VO, work on a good skin or two, maybe make one or two small changes to her kit. That would be what I would want from her VGU.

WinTheWarOnPantsSep 29, 20163 votes

as an eve main i agree with everything you said, but i'm on the "ult needs changes" side. Eve doesn't ever want to be jumping in on a grouped up team of enemies ever. her ult however is most effective for just that. i would like to see her ult as a single target "embrace". other than that her kit is perfect, she just need so love in the visual department.

Linna ExcelSep 29, 20161 votes

And third, she needs major work on her lore... We know very little about her

This is where you lost me. I like her being an unknown quantity. I really don't want her to be forced into a succubus role or turned into a shadow isles champ. I mean right now if someone wants to believe either thing, they can. If someone wants to give her a different backstory they can.

I don't think the game is hurt by having a single champ who is open to interpretation. Given Eve has perma-stealth, she seems a natural fit for that.

Phil FlySep 29, 20163 votes

i want titties

fuksaykeSep 28, 20162 votes

I started playing Eve a lot just over a year ago. Before her I'd never really been able to stick to a single champion without getting bored. Now I've become an OTP just because I never want to play anything else. I started by playing tank eve, then ap bruiser, then ad bruiser, and recently AP assassin. She's one of the most versatile champions, and never loses her identity no matter what path you choose. She's the scary invisible lady who'll kill you if you overextend & she could be anywhere, anytime.

My friends have asked me a few times what I want from the rework, what I think will happen, will I still play her, will I still play league at all? Well, I'm not sure if I'll still play until I see the result & obviously, what I'd want is no change at all. But, knowing it's coming, I guess the things that define eve for me are: passive> E > W = Q > R. I can understand the ult changing. It's a great ability and gives her a more versatile role in team fights. The AOE slow lets her initiate/ follow up well and the shield helps her survive where she would normally just get blown up. However, Maybe this doesn't follow the perceived vision of what eve should be. It would make a lot more sense for it to be single target at the bare minimum.

Her Q serves the main role of helping her clear the jungle, and, build dependant, repeatedly proccing sheen or applying AOE rylais slows. Being realistic, this could change to another spell to help her clear without damaging her identity. Her WE & P I really don't want to see changed. I think they form a brilliant base kit that makes sense, has an identity, and is well balanced. I fear that Riot will change how her stealth works, along with changing her W to a dash or something and make E some kind of skillshot. I really hope they don't - I feel like Eve is a champ that rewards smart macro play rather than straight micro mechanics - something that is pretty unique for assassins. You don't get flashy faker vs ryu highlights because eve is about thinking ahead and being exactly where your opponents are hoping you aren't, not just pulling off mechanical outplays. Part of this is down to her lack of skillshots, making her damage reliable. Which is another reason why she's well balanced across the majority of ELOs - you're not wasting your time playing the champ because you don't have the raw mechanics to pull it off.

Linna ExcelSep 28, 20162 votes

I want riot to keep her theme of blue skinned BDSM babe.
Mechanically I want her to play much like she does now: as a methodical champ and not a true assassin. However she probably needs a better ult.
I want her to keep build flexibility, specifically I want her to have and AD build, an AP build, and an AP tank build.
Lore wise I want her to say as a mysterious rorschach style of champion. Don't tell us what she is or reveal anything like that, let us make up our own story for who and what she is.

ArakadiaSep 28, 20162 votes

Lore wise I want her to say as a mysterious rorschach style of champion. Don't tell us what she is or reveal anything like that, let us make up our own story for who and what she is.

So like her current lore?

Linna ExcelSep 29, 20161 votes

Yeah pretty much. Frankly I think the game is fine with just one champ who is open to interpretation and considering eve has perma-stealth, she feels like a great fit for that role.

The other issue is a lot of people have already made up their own backstories for her. Chances are that whatever riot does, it's going to go against a lot of expectations. At this point I think that the risk outweighs any potential rewards and it'd be better to let people have their own ideas and talk about it in the story forum.

I understand that some people want a definite description of her and I get where they are coming from, but I think in this case Evelynn's lore is better off left alone at this point.

WinTheWarOnPantsSep 29, 20161 votes

i'm inclined to agree about her lore history. the one thing i do think needs to be explained is the kit/abilties and how they function. “A trip is the most fun before one sets out on it. With dogs, the bark and not the bite is more frightening and women are almost always prettier when they are shrouded in mystery... Would it not be better to imagine?”

ArakadiaSep 30, 20161 votes

I understand and agree that she should be kept mysterious, but her current lore is ridiculous. She needs something more.

Bloodsoaked EveSep 28, 20162 votes

I am a silver elo eve main and I made a post about this a while back with some concepts for her rework, here is the link: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/EAIvrzBr-some-ideas-for-the-evelynn-rework?comment=0003

One thing I do not want to change is the huge amount of variety in her build paths, She is one of the few champions who can build one damage item and still be effective. I know it's unhealthy for an assassin to be able to be such a great tank but at least she isn't a draintank atm. warwick, vladimir, 3rd iteration ryze, post-rework swain all have the extreme problem of drain-tanking everything that comes their way. Even late game adc's like vayne and cait have this problem to a degree. I find it very hard to become a drain-tank on eve due to her melee squishy nature. if I go tank, sure I get decent damage and survivability, but it isn't the same as what ekko does with his greater utility and mobility.

I like your reasoning with her lore and I touched upon that point in my post as well. My main problem with her is that there are too many questions as to why she has the powers she does, ESPECIALLY HER Q AND ULT. There is no info on why these two abilities are what they are and why they do what they do. Being mysterious is not the same thing as being underdeveloped.

I hope you can look through my post and we can discuss it in detail.

Jesus is SaviorSep 29, 20162 votes

I don't want Eve to change at all. I only play Eve. I can only get to platinum with Eve. I have thousands of Eve games, and I am silver with everyone else. Eve is fine as is, ESPECIALLY her stealth.

I play her AP assassin atm, too. Not bruiser.

Linna ExcelSep 29, 20161 votes

This has been my position on her. Keep her mostly the same, give her any QoL updates she needs, give her a new rig, and maybe a better ult that's more of an assassin ult and not an initiation ult.

DragfinSep 28, 20161 votes

The thing people hate about Eve is she makes them change their playstyle or they get thumped and people hate change so they hate Eve. IDGAF what excuses anyone comes up with. Stealth makes you think and there are just too many players that can't or won't do that so they bitch and whine about it.

GayFluffyUnicornSep 28, 20162 votes

Stealth is just a very toxic mechanic and riot removed any counterplay to it except being able to place ONE pink. So you have to pray enemy twitch or eve is dumb enough to walk straight through the pink. If not, they destroy and just come back 5 seconds later without u noticing it. Perm.Stealth needs either to be completely removed from the game or we need clear counterplay to it which does not exist at the moment. If we had more champs with access to stealth like in dota through itemisation it would be a different story but as it is currently it's toxic and should have no place in the game.

OleandervineSep 28, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Stealth is just a very toxic mechanic and riot removed any counterplay to it except being able to place ONE pink. So you have to pray enemy twitch or eve is dumb enough to walk straight through the pink. If not, they destroy and just come back 5 seconds later without u noticing it. Perm.Stealth needs either to be completely removed from the game or we need clear counterplay to it which does not exist at the moment. If we had more champs with access to stealth like in dota through itemisation it would be a different story but as it is currently it's toxic and should have no place in the game.

Meddler has even stated that the permanent stealth is her largest problem because they can't design around it due to how utterly game breaking it can be with even the slightest kit power. He's toyed with the idea of changing it.

[{quoted}](name=Blue Moon Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GwrLiWBE,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-09-28T14:58:45.843+0000)

I don't have much experiance with her, but I would guess with the upcoming assassin update, Riot might try to make her kit feel more assassin like (since they will have a basic assassin concept to go off of again) and less reliant on a tanky build to do well.

Evelynn was deliberately left out of the assassin update except for minor minor work because they are planning a VGU (as evidenced by the mini article regarding her lore update).

WinTheWarOnPantsSep 29, 20162 votes

eve "perma" stealth is in no way game breaking since she has no mobility and the stealth has a range limit. the only reason people have such a hard time with it is because they don't know how or are too lazy to ward against it. she is not perma stealthed since she has to unstealth to take camps. placing green wards closer to her camps or on top of them will almost guarantee you will see her before she comes to gank you. it's also amazing how unwilling people are to buy pink wards against her. i can't tell you the amount of times ive been against eve and being told "stfu" when asking teammates to buy pink wards. eve has no mobilty so she has a limited amount of ganking routes that she can come from. 2 pinks is all it takes in bot and top to guarantee she doesn't come in to your lane unseen. mid is a a lot harder but that goes for all jgs not just eve.

OleandervineSep 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

eve "perma" stealth is in no way game breaking since she has no mobility and the stealth has a range limit. the only reason people have such a hard time with it is because they don't know how or are too lazy to ward against it. she is not perma stealthed since she has to unstealth to take camps. placing green wards closer to her camps or on top of them will almost guarantee you will see her before she comes to gank you. it's also amazing how unwilling people are to buy pink wards against her. i can't tell you the amount of times ive been against eve and being told "stfu" when asking teammates to buy pink wards. eve has no mobilty so she has a limited amount of ganking routes that she can come from. 2 pinks is all it takes in bot and top to guarantee she doesn't come in to your lane unseen. mid is a a lot harder but that goes for all jgs not just eve.

You have a very skewed interpretation on the power level of her stealth. You ward her camps, so what? You see her take a camp. Then seconds later, she's gone. So you have a pink. Any laner knows to clear the pinks in the area, especially if they want ganks. You clearly undervalue the immense power of permanent stealth. It doesn't matter if you can momentary glimpses of her with your warding because even then you can not ever keep permanent tabs on her. All she needs is to hide in a bush until stealth hits, and you're disadvantaged. Permanent stealth on her is a massive issue. You are an Eve main, as you mentioned, so I can't imagine you'd have the most unbiased opinion in the matter; that being said, if you've followed her since her start, you know how much of a problem she's been to balance and you've seen her go from assassin to awkward bruiser, and all of that is due to her stealth. Just because you can't see or admit the problems her stealth causes does not mean they do not exist and create an unhealthy state for her to exist in.

DroogzySep 29, 20161 votes

It's pretty clear you don't understand how important those mere few seconds of visibility are.

Sure you might only see her for a few seconds, but if you're top lane and you see Eve at bottom camps? That means you have at least a solid 30 to 45 seconds in which window you can play aggressive without worrying about her jumping on you. Same with vice versa, if she's spotted top, bottom can play aggressive.

Hell even if you're bot lane when you see her in bottom jungle you can still use this knowledge to play aggressively, knowing you have a very short window/time frame for when she will respond to the aggression.

Yes this is applicable to all junglers, but this is arguably far more crippling for Eve to be spotted out even if its just a mere second or two: Eve's entire premises to make everyone paranoid that she might be behind them. If you have vision of her in her jungle of all place, then it defeats pretty much the entire purpose of her existence on the rift

If she's spotted out clearing a camp by invisible ward, a large amount of her kit's strength is already gone since so much is invested into her passive. Pick a control jungler, light up one side of the map, camp the other, she won't be able to do anything since she can't kill you and she can't gank effectively.

Alternatively, as a support, light up the jungle closest to you. Rather then put your wards in bushes, put them directly in the camp and place a pink in river bush. If you don't see Eve at any of those camps or they are not cleared yet, she's most likely not nearby allowing you to play aggressive. If camps are cleared, she's most likely close by, meaning play passive.

I think that the permanent stealth needs to go, not because its toxic, but because its crippling to her: if Eve is locked in, I'm rushing SS/pink/sweeper on my first back and laughing as she doesn't do jack shit in early/mid because we know exactly where she is at all times. And before the question of champion synergy with SS, I did it with Shaco once and we stomped, so saying you can't pick a SS because of kit synergy against her is absolute bull shit.

Yes she makes you change your play style, but how is this necessarily a bad thing? The win condition against her is clear: keep tabs on her as much as possible, and you render her ineffective at her job. If you do that, you win. Heaven forbid, you need to actually use your brain and think logically in order to win a game every now and then.

WinTheWarOnPantsSep 29, 20161 votes

I don't undervalue her passive, because i know that it takes up pretty much all of her power budget and i don't mind that. it's a really cool and fun mechanic to work around. I took a quick look at your op.gg and it seems that you are a sup, but you really undervalue wards. just going off your ranked games(since i assume you take them seriously) your wards placed and wards cleared count is VERY low. wards arent meant to tell you everything they just tell you enough. if you place a ward on or near her camps you will see her and the direction she is going which tells you two very important things. (1.) she is not currently ganking you or in range to do so. and (2.) whether she intends to try and gank you based on her direction after taking the camp and her HP lvl. If you see her at raptors then that means you are free to do anything in lane without fear of being ganked and this is YUGE! but it's up to you to make the move/decisions with the information you are given.

Pinks are much more powerful against eve that other stealth champs because of a number of reasons.

she cannot bypass them. eve has no mobility and as such, must come into lane through one of the entrances. placing a pink in the river or tri(depending on which side you're on) and another in lane bush means 100% she can't get to you before you see her.
you can catch her with them. eve has no mobility like a said and this means that its very hard for her to escape when caught. champs like shaco on the other hand can be seen by a pink or green at any time, but if you try to catch him POOF! he's Eed out of pink range and is now invisible.
you don't need pinks to kill her. the difference between eve stealth and other champs stealth is that 1. you can see her/attack her if you are in range, and 2. if you manage to hit her with any form of dmg she will unstealth and cannot restealth until her passive timer counts down again.

number 3 is a very big one all other stealth champs REQUIRE a pink to even start attacking them if the stealth. Akali Khazix Leblanc Shaco Talon Teemo Twitch Vayne MonkeyKing are 100% invulnerable to targeted abilities for the full duration of their stealth. all other stealth champs have "in-combat" stealth. eve stealth is "out-of-combat" and "limited range". i have heard the stories about eve from past seasons, but I started playing league in season 4 and she has never been a problem since then at least and in fact she is in a very good state IMO. the game has changed quite a bit since then i think it has evolved into a game where her passive is now a non issue. the amount of mobility and cc in the game now is insane compared to back when eve was a problem, and unless they start removing CC or mobility from the game her perma out of combat stealth will fit nicely as a really cool niche that only she fills.

KazligFeb 9, 20171 votes

Additionally, once teams start grouping up a wise frontliner/peeler can position themselves a little outside the main team to act as a spotter. I remember a Poppy in particular that would spend the time before teamfights basically patrolling the area for me. Made it impossible to position to kill their adc. Also sorry for the necro, but since a rework has been confirmed now it seemed pertinent to revisit this discussion.

DragfinSep 28, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Stealth is just a very toxic mechanic and riot removed any counterplay to it except being able to place ONE pink. So you have to pray enemy twitch or eve is dumb enough to walk straight through the pink. If not, they destroy and just come back 5 seconds later without u noticing it. Perm.Stealth needs either to be completely removed from the game or we need clear counterplay to it which does not exist at the moment. If we had more champs with access to stealth like in dota through itemisation it would be a different story but as it is currently it's toxic and should have no place in the game.

Like I said...

Stealth has been bitched about in all PvP games because people have to change how they play. Agree to disagree because what I said is my opinion.

You counter her by being aware of your surrounding and not being dumb AF. Her counterplay is in the brain of a good player.

WinTheWarOnPantsSep 29, 20161 votes

well said eve stealth is actually very healthy if you know how to play against it. and countering it is not complicated, but like you said it different. contrary to popular belief eve inst immune to green wards. you just have to put them in different places than normal. if you put them on or near her jg camps then you will always have an idea when shes coming unless she never farms. also pink wards actually work on her unlike other stealth assassins since she HAS to walk through them. eve cant stealth bypass pink wards by dashing over any wall like Shaco can and she cant ult down lane and insta gib you like Rengar can. she has to run, which leaves you the option to use your dashes or cc to get away or turn. even if you are one hit away you can still live if you react fast enough(granted very few people can unless you're ready for it)

it be lìke thatSep 28, 20161 votes

Evelynn is my go to assassin for jungle, here is my pov.

Her lore is very open, but her identity isn't.

She is a shadowwalking MASTER assassin identity wise, she is shrouded in mystery. so her stealth absolutely needs to stay, i will take some nerf to it or a bigger "!!" range in exchange for being viable however.

It would also be nice if her hair could at least not look like a beehive was set on fire and thrown in a river. I would sell my soul for a nicely done 1350+ skin, she has never had one.

as for her abilities.

her e - I really hope they keep her e the way it is, it is far better than a boring passive on hit ive seen requested. It would take a lot from her, (you can auto then e to reset your auto, extra true damage with red buff even) passive abilities are just unhealthy overall imo and it would be far less rewarding.

her q - i know people hate that it is spammable, but its not really a major part of her damage when bursting, it just proc's thunderlords faster and kills you when you try to run. its infact 100% dodge-able, it does NOT follow you forever. which is her biggest misconception. on the other hand, it isnt a rewarding feel, maybe something along the lines of viktors lazer but with spikes. in the sense of it should be her priority for damage, but also have a fair cd and you can be punished for whiffing it, not throw out another to slow them in 2 seconds with your rylai.

her w, would need to stay some sort of utility, her base stats are super low already, when her items get nerfed, her clear turns miserable and she cant escape counter junglers. but its also obnoxious early game, that she can run in, smack the hell out of you, turn around and haul ass away without you being able to really chase.

maybe reduce the movement speed of it but it will give scaling resistant buffs, it would nerf her early game poke and make her more viable late game in team fights.

her r - i actually love her R, i think its extremely well designed, just not for her. it doesnt really fit her persona or kit. its an aoe slow that deals moderate damage and gives her a nice shield for all enemies hit. the shield is amazing early game, but late its little more than a paper bag. her ult should be shifted to something of a single target ult for killing priorities, or maybe an empowerment of some sorts. because right now, the combo is flash +ult+ auto the adc (in theory) e+the insta auto then spam q praying your team follows up. team fights are her absolute weakest phase of the game by an insane margin.

You then mash w through the cc to run or zhonya depending on the stage.

She then falls off fairly late game unless hyper fed, even when massively fed she can't hard carry games over 30+ minutes, she gets massively outscaled. She is pretty (and i absolutely HATE this term) feast or famine. a bad early game for evelynn is a miserable match.

edit left out her passive *** her passive is good and fairly overpowered early, she is clearly meant to be an early game champion, but its 100% useless late game unless you are in team fights rapidly. i would love to see something more innovative than "mana back when you stealth" nothing comes to mind for it however.

i disagree with her not needing a rework, simply because, she will never be strong this way ever again after season 4 (correct me if im wrong) riot hates stealth and evelynn is the worst offender of it, a complete rework is her best hope of being good again.

I love evelynn warts and all.

Evelynn I may be bad, but I feel good.

is the most ironic/accurate quote in game.

Gladix77Sep 30, 20162 votes

team fights are her absolute weakest phase of the game by an insane margin.

Strange. I main eve since rework (even before actually). And I don't actually think it's her weakest phase. It really isn't, you just needs to know how to execute it. You must attack from flanks or behind and either burst the squishies down (adc, support, AP carry, etc...) Or exectue hit and run tactics. People always are having problem with teamfights with Eve. I'm diamond 5, and as of yet I actually don't mind her late game. Sure, she can gt shutdown by stuns. But then again, half of the champs can, her strengths lies in how you want to execute her fights.

And no, Absolutely don't freaking trade her mobility to some shitty resistances. I love eve because she is mobile as all hell because of items, such as rylais, movement speeds from "W" and slows from ult. She doesn't have any dashes, flashes, jumps, counters to rely on, just a movement speed. And Contrary to popular belief there is quite a high ceiling in eve micro play, since you rely on positioning and juking more so than your average champion. Dancing arround your enemy, while having them slowed with ult (and ideally rylais after that). Dodging skillshots, keeping just close enough to execute hate spikes and double attacks, but far enough so you won't get caught. Hit and run, hit and run. Or burst and kill. Taking away her movement speed buffs and slows would effectively be killing her.

it be lìke thatSep 30, 20161 votes

you realize this was a pov that could actually hopefully give her decent scalings in a rework right?

Evelynn, WILL be reworked, its happening, its inevitable.

she can stay an oppressive early game champ who will be kept constantly underwhelming do to her style of play, OR they make her viable for your team and less of a liability later.

The rework is planned, personally, i'd rather see her able to carry teams at the end game.

mirAcIeOct 3, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bish im saucin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GwrLiWBE,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2016-09-30T17:07:39.313+0000)

you realize this was a pov that could actually hopefully give her decent scalings in a rework right?

Evelynn, WILL be reworked, its happening, its inevitable.

she can stay an oppressive early game champ who will be kept constantly underwhelming do to her style of play, OR they make her viable for your team and less of a liability later.

The rework is planned, personally, i'd rather see her able to carry teams at the end game.

She can already 100-0 people, I don't think scalings are the problem.

it be lìke thatOct 3, 20161 votes

she can only 100-0 early game then she falls off harder than any other champion except maybe shaco.

enemy team buys some mr and you are little more than a slow bot.

mirAcIeOct 3, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bish im saucin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GwrLiWBE,comment-id=00090000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-03T14:01:22.202+0000)

she can only 100-0 early game then she falls off harder than any other champion except maybe shaco.

enemy team buys some mr and you are little more than a slow bot.

Yeah, no. She doesn't 100-0 anyhing until she gets the necessary items and she doesnt fall off because Void Staff exists and Ad carries don't get much tankier. Then again, it all depends on what you're going for. Even if you don't go for the carry build, you still do significant damage to squishies and provide a strong initiation for your team, so I wouldnt even consider it falling off.

it be lìke thatOct 3, 20161 votes

late game in team fights, you should very rarely even get an opportunity to murder the adc uncontested.

and thats not true, level 2 you can 100-0 any jungler except maybe leesin and naut (jn my experience) with red buff, auto , e auto reset q ignite.

her early game is great. she can snowball well if they play it wrong.

but she does inevitably fall off with full ap build. unless its a jhin. then you sit in the back and wait for him to ult while his team goes in. good luck catching a lucian/caitlyn before you die.

mirAcIeOct 3, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bish im saucin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GwrLiWBE,comment-id=0009000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-03T14:23:30.386+0000)

late game in team fights, you should very rarely even get an opportunity to murder the adc uncontested.

and thats not true, level 2 you can 100-0 any jungler except maybe leesin and naut (jn my experience) with red buff, auto , e auto reset q ignite.

her early game is great. she can snowball well if they play it wrong.

but she does inevitably fall off with full ap build. unless its a jhin. then you sit in the back and wait for him to ult while his team goes in. good luck catching a lucian/caitlyn before you die.

I don't think we have the same understanding of what 100-0 means. I'm speaking of Rengar-type of 100-0 in under a second. Evelynn does not do that at level 2 or at level 6 for that matter. And for the other part, as I said, it depends on what you're going for. Assassination is fun to pull off and you can do it if you have patience, but it's not always worth it, so most people just go semi-tanky AP build and still get to 100-30 adc carry while initiating a teamfight for their team. Getting ADC this low without chasing him (your team has to do their job too, after all) is good enough to not be very useful.

it be lìke thatOct 3, 20161 votes

100-0 means exactly that, you solo take them 100-0 in a single engage. it doesnt have a time stamp on it.

it takes a bit longer than rengars would when he has full crit and ult obviously. but you still can.

situational, that damage can be easily void by a soraka heal and a bloodthirster. but idk man. depends on what the layout is.

you really cannot deny she falls off into the lategame, her early to mid is here powerspike. win by 30 minutes, or hope your team can carry.

mirAcIeOct 3, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bish im saucin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GwrLiWBE,comment-id=000900000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-03T14:37:02.068+0000)

100-0 means exactly that, you solo take them 100-0 in a single engage. it doesnt have a time stamp on it.

it takes a bit longer than rengars would when he has full crit and ult obviously. but you still can.

situational, that damage can be easily void by a soraka heal and a bloodthirster. but idk man. depends on what the layout is.

you really cannot deny she falls off into the lategame, her early to mid is here powerspike. win by 30 minutes, or hope your team can carry.

Let's not argue definitions ok? I use 100-0 to define bursting the enemy down instantly. You are free to use it however you want, even though it makes little sense to me. I just explained you what I meant by 100-0ing someone. And yeah, I already said above that she falls off as an assassin and becomes much harder to pull off later in the game, just like ANY assassin, but it's not like most people even go for the 6-item assassin build. They transition into the tanky AP build that allows you to initiate a fight, get a significant burst on the enemy squishy target and stay in the fight because of the tank stats.

WarlockLawOct 3, 20161 votes

Whether or not you think she needs a full start-from-scratch rework like Sion/Poppy/Urgot got/need, her Ult is completely at odds with her entire identity/history. She is an assassin/diver that wants to flank the enemy back line and kill it quickly with her spammy abilties then get out, yet she has an initiation ultimate that incentives hitting clumped enemies for a mediocre damage, a decent slow, and a huge shield. The Ult is bad on her, and honestly I don't think their is a single champion that'd like to have her Ult. Also her passive stealth has caused her damage to be repeatedly nerfed down, so that should probably be moved to an actual ability to give it some amount of counterplay that isn't pink ward the entire map.

I understand that some players are enjoying her current kit, and Riot has kind of dropped the ball when it comes to keeping the old mains happy before and after their reworks. Hell, every champion that I've liked who's gotten a rework I've dropped afterwards. However the rework is coming, and the main identity Eve has in game is 'stealth assassin' and she has picked up the 'succubus' thing from her lore as well as her original ult which healed her for kills and assists. If you are hoping for her to remain close to what she is, I'm sorry.

BLACK REALM GODOct 3, 20161 votes

as a karthus main i feel my opinion matters so im posting it here among you evelynn mains. you're welcome.

MiraweaveOct 3, 20161 votes

delete cancer eve

Nameless VoiceOct 3, 20161 votes

Evelynn main here.

I think the main problem with Eve in terms of gameplay is that she is simply outclassed by nearly every other champion in the game.

She has to employ subtlety, positioning and timing to catch out enemies who are, by-and-large, stronger than her. That sense of stalking your prey until they are vulnerable and then closing in is what defines her playstyle and makes her a completely unique champion.

The problem is that none of the other assassins need to do this. Eve will lose every single duel, even if she's ridiculously fed, and can be shut down extremely easily by good positioning, again unlike any other assassin. That makes Eve a healthier assassin than the others, but it also leaves her as a very poor pick if you want to play an assassin.

If you get ahead as Kha'zix, Shaco, Diana, Fizz, Zed, Rengar, etc., you can instantly delete an enemy target with pretty much no counterplay. So you're left wondering why you should play Eve, when those other champions all do her job, better, often with less (strategic skill requirement.) No only does Eve have a harder time closing in with priority targets (since, as mentioned, she needs to use strategy rather than just dashing in), she also has really poor stats in all areas - she's extremely fragile and does extremely low damage for an assassin.

Eve is intentionally kept weak in those areas because her stealth is deemed to be toxic (oddly, more so than champions with real invisibility or much more unhealthy play patterns), and the real reason for that is because of the current vision system. Trinkets are heavily nerfed, you can't buy a pink ward trinket any more, you can only have a single pink ward and it's visible. When Eve was first reworked to have permanent detectable stealth, she was in a much healthier place because her skillset worked with League's vision system at the time. As the vision system has shifted to give less and less access to vision and detection, so as her kill become harder to balance and she's needed to be kept artificially weak as a result.

Definitely agree that she urgently needs a visual rework. Her skillset could do with some work, but the main problem is its interaction with the vision system.

19348180DEL1Mar 24, 20171 votes

Personally, I like the Shadow Walker theme she has at current. Shrouded in mystery is the very defining cue for a "Shadow Walker", someone who walks in anonymity. Perhaps the Succubus thing should be a skin idea, I'm all for that. But making her a Hell-spawn draws away from the Shadow Walker theme. We just need more skins to give her more ideas to play with. But a Shadow Walking anonymous mercenary seems to fit quite well with her IMHO.