With Taric's rework, another point & click stun is removed

Sasogwa·Apr 5, 2016·73 votes·6,608 views

Yep, people don't like to be stunned via a point & click because it feels a bit oppressive and all. But if we think deeper, every ranged reliable CC is a good tool to limit the overwhelming power of mobility creep. Even if we don't like it, it's like something that limits the domination of mobile champions. And on a champion with low mobility, the counterplay is not really that hard : position well not to be in danger if stunned/not to be stunned or get a QSS. Overall I don't think it will affect Taric's power level, but I'm concerned. Hopefully though, with Poppy's W and the grounded effect on Cassiopeia's rework and possible implementation on other champions, mobility will have counterplay.

98 Comments

Big LincolnApr 5, 201645 votes

this wouldn't be that much of an issue if mobility actually came with trade-offs

KarKzzApr 6, 20163 votes

You mean, that gapcloser should't do the same damage (sometime MORE) than a classic "damaging" ability ?

Big LincolnApr 6, 20169 votes

I mean that mobility isn't treated as something that should come with a price somewhere else in the champion's kit. (Range, Waveclear, AoE, CC, etc)

It's just GIVEN to champions now.

TehNACHOApr 6, 20163 votes

To be fair: AurelionSol gives up potentially one combat ability. Yes it synergizes with his Q, but for the medium range mage that he is, it's still a lot of loss combat potential. Kindred can only maximize her Q's mobility in a limited area, a definite weakness for Marksman imo. Otherwise it's quite frankly not an impressive ability in and of itself. TahmKench gives up a combat ultimate Ekko straight up doesn't do that much damage. When it comes to his mid lane performance (AP Build), he's champion 41 of 49 in terms of raw damage. He also just plainly underperforms, stat wise, in general. Bard either requires charms, or grants the enemy team mobility as well. RekSai gives up a combat ultimate, which is crazy for a fighter.

I ran through 6 champions with mobility before we hit Kalista, a champion that I'd agree that mobility is just "given" to.

Big LincolnApr 6, 20162 votes

yes, modern champions are much, MUCH better in terms of this. Aurelion also gets canceled out of it if he takes champ or turret damage. Very fair mobility.

But look at shit like Lucian Zed Ahri Leblanc Renekton , the older champions, who just have ridiculous mobility with very minor trade-offs. These are the ones that people usually refer to when mobility creep is an issue, because they've got everything or almost everything they need for their role.

IMO Ekko is a mess of design for being a utility assassin to begin with. His AP damage is only "low" usually because he dies before he has a chance to get it off. Tank Ekko, however, is VERY strong, and AP bruiser builds strike a firm compromise between them.

TehNACHOApr 6, 20161 votes

While what you say is true, please realize it contradicts your:

It's just GIVEN to champions now.

statement, specifically the "given now" part. It implies that the modern champs are the problem.

elon wątrobaApr 6, 20161 votes

Yep, such modern many problemz Riven

dEAdbUsApr 7, 20161 votes

Underperforming ekko killing every one in tank build and dominates on pro scene

TehNACHOApr 7, 20161 votes

Statistics used are his intended mid lane AP build~

BioticBronyApr 5, 201621 votes

The reason why they removed it is because he couldn't protect his allies from multiple people. It was just single target, that is something you put on a fighter and not a support, while the single target was great for top lane, it made it hard for support.

CroaninApr 5, 20169 votes

{quoted}

The reason why they removed it is because he couldn't protect his allies from multiple people. It was just single target, that is something you put on a fighter and not a support, while the single target was great for top lane, it made it hard for support.

Agreed, one of the most frustrating things about playing Taric is he can only do so much when his carries get collapsed on. One point and click stun wont save him from 3 divers, were as must supports can repel an entire onslaught.

Critmaster GarenApr 6, 201614 votes

i dont think point and click cc is a very healthy mechanic to deal with mobility.

plus, it usually hits low mobility champs harder than mobile ones. i mean look at ryze. if you didnt have some sort of mobility to just jump out of his cast range between snares, he permanently nailed you down.

the new "grounded" debuff is a better tool to deal with hypermobile champs.

RocketRelmApr 6, 20161 votes

Grounded only deals with dash/blink style mobility. The breed of "I have 600+ Movespeed, all the time" mobility is not so easily dealt with by such a debuff.

Critmaster GarenApr 6, 20167 votes

{quoted}

Grounded only deals with dash/blink style mobility. The breed of "I have 600+ Movespeed, all the time" mobility is not so easily dealt with by such a debuff.

thats dealt with by any and every slow or any other form of movement impairing cc. and even if you dont have a slow on your champion, everyone can itemize into it.

there are like 10 items in the game that give you slow actives or passives.

UirayaApr 5, 201611 votes

Continued and deliberate empowerment of mobile champions.

Riot has the tools to address this game's flagrant mobility creep; that they refuse to use them is quite telling.

IgotlazyApr 5, 20168 votes

Really? I mean things like Azir's Ult, Poppy's W and the new "Grounded" debuff shows that they're trying.

UirayaApr 5, 20163 votes

Once these effects wind up on more than three champs we might be getting somewhere. Grounded should be as ubiquitous as slow is, if not a direct upgrade for all slow effects.

IgotlazyApr 5, 20168 votes

It's a little extreme to have it everywhere. We want clear counters, not "block out the sun".

UirayaApr 5, 20162 votes

Why not? Mobility is everywhere.

And a mobile champ who finds themselves with grounded only gains an advantage against other mobile champs.

IgotlazyApr 5, 20166 votes

Wouldn't a mobile champ who finds themselves grounded gain a DISadvantage against other mobile champs? Since they have their mobility while the one affected does not?

An ability such as Grounded would be INCREDIBLY disruptive to the play styles of a large majority of champions. Slow is the least disruptive CC in the game and that shows by how common it is. Meanwhile Knock-ups are one of the most harming so it's a relatively rare CC and abilities that have it are usually Ults/skillshots/have high cooldowns. A disruptive AND niche effect such as this should in my opinion, be relatively rare. Champions that have Grounded should be picked because they have it with the intent to counter mobility, not because they are powerful and have Grounded as a bonus.

Also so what if mobility is everywhere? It's not necessarily a bad thing if it's relatively common.

3TWarriorApr 6, 20162 votes

the problem is that champion kits have not been updated to deal with mobility and immobile champions are often completely at the mercy of an abusing mobile champion

for instance, ekko gains an execute every 3rd auto attack and then gains a large bonus to movement speed

zed is zed

riven is riven

ezreal can blink (something an ADC shouldn't have when flash is already and frequently used with ezreal)

and many other factors which skillshot champions can not keep up with

IgotlazyApr 6, 20161 votes

I just want to mention that Ekko's Passive is not actually an execute.

Why should champion kits be updated to deal with mobility? Some champs being weak to mobility makes sense balance wise. What I do think we need is a couple of more cases where there are Champs that counter mobility. The OP that I responded to said "Riot has the tools to address this game's flagrant mobility creep; that they refuse to use them is quite telling". We ARE seeing them try to tune some champs towards this. That's all I am trying to say.

SpecterVonBarenApr 6, 20161 votes

He probably means his W passive.

IgotlazyApr 6, 20161 votes

"ekko gains an execute every 3rd auto attack" is what he said. This is just wrong. I get that he mixed some stuff up, but jeez :/

AnidanApr 6, 20165 votes

Ezreal trades damage for that safety. Say what you want about Ezreal, he's not packing anything close to the highest damage of any carry, and for that he gains safety and utility. He's a comparatively low damage, safe carry. That's pretty standard in games.

67chromeApr 5, 20168 votes

But if we think deeper, every ranged reliable CC is a good tool to limit the overwhelming power of mobility creep.

Not really.

Skillshots tend to have ~twice the range of all point-click skills, which is a pretty huge advantage when dealing with mobility. More range allows you to strike mobile targets when they're trying to weave in and out of combat, and skillshots not requiring a target also makes them substantially better when dealing with champions using fog of war, brush, or stealth. No target requirement also makes skillshots really solid at backwards kiting: as a skillshot CC skill with 800 range and a travel-speed of 1600 will work as the equivalent of a 1000 range skill vs. a champion chasing after you with 400 movement speed. For champions running away: skillshots having more range than point-click skills usually makes that pretty even.

The main advantage point-click has over skillshots is in-lane when everyone is mobbing around with a bunch of minion cover. Which isn't something a lot of hyper-mobile champions do as frequently as everyone else, seeing as mobility tends to give good roaming potential and re-positioning tools that heavily favor not hiding behind minions. Also: any skillshot that isn't blocked by minions still works in these scinarios.

The main stat that really goes the extra mile in CC skills when dealing with speedy champions is, well, speed. Particularly in casting animations and projectile speeds. Most CC skills have a long cast time and slow missile speed. Taric's Dazzle was no exception within the point-click realm, and sluggish skills are not a good response to fast champions.

CC skills with rapid casting times and fast projectile speeds are significantly more useful when dealing with mobile champions. Janna's Monsoon is insanely good in this regard, as it not only applies a mini-stun but it also completely eradicates the movement advantage a wide range of gap-closers offer. It's not a point-click skill.

Leona's Shield of Daybreak stun is inversely weak with dealing with mobile champions, as it's slow casting time allows champions such as Katarina to unload her full combo before the stun applies, and it takes more time than Fizz needs to transition between Zhonya's and Trickster, making her CC pretty weak at shutting down either mobile champion without a lot of skill, foresight, and timing on Leona's part.

Considering Taric can cast his stun twice now, not seeing his new stun as weaker vs. mobile champions. Considering most mobile champions are assassins or half-assassins, Taric's Invulnerability is also stronger vs. mobile champions than he was before.

IlliadApr 5, 20166 votes

[deleted]

SasogwaApr 5, 201641 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tetsu Juan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GPI8hmwA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-04-05T19:28:49.272+0000)

why are you complaining again? counterplay is supposed to exist, and skill needs to be involved, try aiming a skill shot bud [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

If the skillshot isn't ridiculously fast and you're faced with someone that has a spammable dash (a bunch of meta champions do); you only hit if your opponent is bad.

IlliadApr 5, 20162 votes

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MuffleMouse411Apr 5, 201626 votes

It's funny seeing someone who's most played champion is Malzahar complain about a champion with a point and click stun.

SociopathFriendApr 6, 20164 votes

In defense of Malz mains (who this man does not represent) Malzahar does have one of the hardest skillshots to land in the entire game. If you can land that consistently then you deserve to be cocky about landing skillshots.

That said, this was definitely a good trade for Taric, his stun can now hit multiple people- that's a helluva tradeoff.

WimbledofyApr 6, 20166 votes

you can't predict a dash if your ability is not fast enough. If your ability is not fast enough, there is no dash to predict because they will dash AFTER you cast your ability so they can see where it is traveling.

Take cho'gath's Q for example: Unless my oponent's dash is on cooldown, I cannot completely predict their movement because as soon as they see where my ability forms they can dash out unless they are only able to run in one direction and their dash is slow and short. If I'm chasing a caitlyn and she knows she can't fight me, her only option is to dash away with her E which is predictable. But if it was something like a zed and his W is up, there is no way I can predict his direction of travel since unless he is bad, he will use his dash reactively to avoid my knockup.

IlliadApr 6, 20166 votes

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WimbledofyApr 6, 20162 votes

not sure why someone downvoted this last one you wrote.

Photos of GhostsApr 6, 20163 votes

Because he's acting as a victim after being very condescending over several comments.

Mister ModestyApr 6, 20164 votes

New Taric is a disappointment. Weaker heals. Easy-to-dodge stun. Useless Ult- they must still have Bard in their minds.. W is just a horrible excuse to nerf the rest of his kit. And the passive is just a horrible re-write. 2 hits < 1 hit+magic damage The CD on the passive doesnt matter- spamming heal is pointless because it has to be charged. Stun is so damn slow that getting a DC on it isnt worth it.. The W is just an ugly excuse to make everything weak by allowing abilities to be cast twice. Sorry- but Taric was ruined. Take it from an ACTUAL Taric main. Not these homo-loving fanboys who just want to see Taric french Ez.

BioticBronyApr 6, 20162 votes

Okay while yes his heals are a bit weaker they are really spammable. His passive will lower them down by 4 seconds per hit due to his heals being lowered by an additional 3 seconds. Plus the charge system is meant more for laning and farming or if you are being poked down hard while being able to spam heals in a fight.

Also you say his passive his weaker, it does more damage then it does now. Base damage of 15 +5 per level and 15% bonus armor per hit meaning 30 +10 per level and 30% bonus armor on 2 hits.

While his stun is easy to dodge he can cast it from two people meaning you have to move around in a fight even more to dodge it forcing people out of position.

You do realize that his w is also a shield right? He can use it quite a bit in a fight.

Plus you saying you are a taric main just seems like you are saying don't argue with me.

Mister ModestyApr 7, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Okay while yes his heals are a bit weaker they are really spammable. His passive will lower them down by 4 seconds per hit due to his heals being lowered by an additional 3 seconds. Plus the charge system is meant more for laning and farming or if you are being poked down hard while being able to spam heals in a fight.

Also you say his passive his weaker, it does more damage then it does now. Base damage of 15 +5 per level and 15% bonus armor per hit meaning 30 +10 per level and 30% bonus armor on 2 hits.

While his stun is easy to dodge he can cast it from two people meaning you have to move around in a fight even more to dodge it forcing people out of position.

You do realize that his w is also a shield right? He can use it quite a bit in a fight.

Plus you saying you are a taric main just seems like you are saying don't argue with me.

First, whether or not it's a good update is subjective. As a Taric player, I was looking forward to an update- but I was hoping his gameplay wouldn't change so drastically.

Passive- Better for grinding, worse for peeling. Extra time making the attack is going to make a subtle change in a Taric engage.

Q- For one, it needs to be charged- this means it will not be at its most effective until it reaches 3 charges. Taric's passive grants him CD, but counters spam heals, given the unlikelihood of having 3 charges upon recast. Secondly, it promotes ally crowding- Taric now doesn't get crowded unless by enemies. Now everyone is going to be rubbing on him like it's a rave. (which makes sense because he's a gorgeous man.. but hurts gameplay)

W- First, I like this ability. However, my like for this ability is severely cut by the fact it acts as an excuse to nerf his kit. Slow, easy to dodge stuns- but you get to cast it twice simultaneously. Nerfed healing, but it can be cast twice simultaneously.

E- The skill is so slow, it's like an Anivia 'iceball'- I don't know Anivia's abilities' names. Even if it's being cast in two separate directions, there's enough time to decide and move to a safe place. This really only makes the stun an effective zoning tool, which only applies CC when the enemy is too stubborn or stupid to move- or if they're already stunned.

R- It fits his concept better, but I don't see it working well in actual gameplay. Unless your allies crowd you while moving toward a similar objective, it's pointless. And this seems like an all-the-time scenario, and the same stipulation exists with his current Ult, but allies can be unpredictable. Taric's current Ult gives incentive to stay by Taric for the duration, where as invulnerability might convince some players to wander- or they could do whatever- which makes the timing of the Ult critical and 'chancey'. The only certainty you have with the cast is during a losing team fight- and even then some allies might flee, others might engage- creating confusion AND wasting the Ult.

MimyApr 5, 20163 votes

Time for Annie to hit puberty....

jk... she'll always be the annoying flash tibbers stun burst...

Sythriel DrakenApr 6, 20163 votes

Annie point and click stun's are oppressive you say???

OleandervineApr 6, 20163 votes

I have to say, I'm slightly torn. I love both of the Taric stuns, and I can see both having great synergy. The new one will be absolute murder in team fights, along with his entire kit. The old point and click was better for laning - which is actually where he needs it more. To make it effectively to the team fight phase with your ADC all fed and ready to roll, you need that stun to peel off upcoming ganks and to put champions like Lucian and Kalista in their place. Champs like them are becoming increasingly harder to deal with because many champs, melee especially, can't reliably make them stop moving. Taric's current Dazzle can stop them, and perfectly long enough for his ADC to land a kill or to limit them further with Exhaust. Since he'll be losing the ability to reliably stop them, he'll have to pray he can land one of his AOE Dazzles and otherwise hope his buddy kills them and makes it to team fighting with enough kills to carry the team.

BoulderoxApr 6, 20163 votes

Annie you need a makeover child...

MalzaharAnyLaneApr 7, 20163 votes

Every removal of a point and click stun or silence is a direct buff to mobility creep.

invisiblecat1Apr 6, 20162 votes

CC on Ranged point and click spells is just too broken, while something like Suppresssions are just too strong

SasogwaApr 6, 20163 votes

{quoted}

CC on Ranged point and click spells is just too broken, while something like Suppresssions are just too strong

Or is it really? Malzahar and Warwick are extremely far from dominating high elo/competitive and are easily interrupted by another champion or buy a goddamn item 3140 . Isn't it Riot that wants to make us believe that point & click ranged CC is broken? After all, when item 3222 summoner 1 item 3102 and oranges exist. I even wonder if we don't see a lot of banshee's anymore because the game lacks those point & click things. Or maybe it's too easy to proc with spammable spells. Again, I don't defend the healthiness of this ; but I wondered about its necessity. And of course linked it to the potential grounded debuff we'll see in the future that might be a good addition to the game, since it's pretty much the only alternative.