Not every champion in the game has to jungle.
"Akali should get her passive on monsters so she can be broken in the jungle!" "Camille should heal off monsters so she can jungle!" "Ezreal W should hit monsters so he can jungle!"
Every new champion/rework doesn't have to jungle. Just sayin'
ModKnightsKemplar10 votesOn the flip side, how cool would it be if they could?
I think Riot is smart not to make that a goal, because it would be a lot of work, but if you can find a way to make it work by allowing an ability or a passive do a little extra damage to monsters, why wouldn't you? It's basically free diversity for your game.
Get Ogre Here6 votesOn the flip side, how cool would it be if they could?
I think Riot is smart not to make that a goal, because it would be a lot of work, but if you can find a way to make it work by allowing an ability or a passive do a little extra damage to monsters, why wouldn't you? It's basically free diversity for your game.
Because it can easily be broken having someone who isn't designed for the jungle work in the jungle. That can open Pandora's box of possibilities for potential broken strategies and stuff. I think Riot just wants to avoid having more on their plate in terms of balance and try to put champions where they belong.
ModKnightsKemplar11 votesLike I said, if you can make it work. I include game health in that evaluation.
It's good to have healthy diversity. There's no such thing as too much diversity, imo. If you see unhealthy strats, you should always prune those, but it's a different issue than strategic diversity.
Get Ogre Here1 votesLike I said, if you can make it work. I include game health in that evaluation.
It's good to have healthy diversity. There's no such thing as too much diversity, imo. If you see unhealthy strats, you should always prune those, but it's a different issue than strategic diversity.
Riot probably makes everything that they believe can work in the jungle work, but if they're uncomfortable with it they probably will just stray away from it. And even if they think it can work that will still require trial-and-error, again, that Riot likely wants to avoid considering the balance issues currently in the game.
I see where you're coming from, I just think it isn't feasible, at least at the current time.
ModKnightsKemplar2 votesI'm not arguing for more than we have, really. I agree with you, I think Riot usually does this when they think it makes sense.
I do think it would be cool if it made sense for every champion; obviously, that's never going to happen. I think maybe my first comment is being interpreted differently than I intended :D
All I meant to say was, I do like it when they can do this, and I understand the impulse of wishing it could be so with every champion. Taric jungle would be really fun. But I'm not wishing for the balance nightmare that would ensue. I don't think it's a realistic expectation.
Get Ogre Here1 votesI'm not arguing for more than we have, really. I agree with you, I think Riot usually does this when they think it makes sense.
I do think it would be cool if it made sense for every champion; obviously, that's never going to happen. I think maybe my first comment is being interpreted differently than I intended :D
All I meant to say was, I do like it when they can do this, and I understand the impulse of wishing it could be so with every champion. Taric jungle would be really fun. But I'm not wishing for the balance nightmare that would ensue. I don't think it's a realistic expectation.
Oh I see. I agree, even though I don't play jungle having diversity is still really cool! As much as I also wish there could be more diversity (feasibly) unfortunately it just won't happen. Maybe if Riot fixes their current game then in the future they can experiment with that :p
ModKnightsKemplar2 votesYeah, exactly. They have much bigger fish to fry.
Get Ogre Here1 votesYeah, exactly. They have much bigger fish to fry.
Fish are friends, not food! >:o
SwiftKitten882 votes[{quoted}](name=Get Ogre Here,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GNv22WsO,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-10-11T18:50:54.215+0000)
Because it can easily be broken having someone who isn't designed for the jungle work in the jungle. That can open Pandora's box of possibilities for potential broken strategies and stuff. I think Riot just wants to avoid having more on their plate in terms of balance and try to put champions where they belong.
LOL, i really don't think u have any idea how true this actually is. i know VERY well, as it happened to my main nidalee in 5.1 well after she was reworked in 4.10 (strangely people still seemed to think she was reworked into the jungler when she wasn't, and balme her rework when her rework was a godsend)
but back to the topic on hand
from 4.17 to when season 5 started riot was perfectly balanced in 3 lanes
top and mid where she had a balanced 50% in every elo
and support where she had a 48% winrate
in 5.1 she had ONE change done
no change to damage at all in any way
and that change was "hunted now procs on jungle camps" (and for a time they rooted monsters too)
however unbeknownst to riot (and even me and this remains one of only 2 
changes on pbe i couldn't predict... no one could have and i don't blame riot for that.. but i DO blame them for how they later addressed it)
what happened was... just like you said... nid was balanced around lane.. and therefore as a laner who was generally always in vision... you know where she was.. so where the spear was going to come from, u knew where to stay behind minions as u kept vision on her. nid also have no form of effective CS outside of kitty form. which before patch 4.10 she didnt have until 6.. and in 4.10 she got access to at lvl 6. but lost all the armor and mr and speed boost kitty form gave therefore it was only actually SAFE to clear in kitty form if you were ahead.
what this mean is nid generally have a hard time CSing, because without kitty form she could not clear, and if she got behind at all in lane (which was easy to do because it was hard to CS with) she generally had a low gold early game and REALLY took off around mid game
unless she landed good spears early on in lane
so now we bring her into the jungle in 5.1.. and we dont change her in any way other than letting per proc her passive on jungle camps (this allowed her to clear.
the difference this bad is... nid's power spike was based around having a laner and have low gold early..
wjat they did.. was they gave her a MASSIVE increase in gold.. rhew fastest clear in the game.. and she would get crazy far ahead.
so they nerfed her.. but this wasn't the rework team who did work to make her give her an amazing rework... these were the moronic balance team who cant do shit properly once than one patch a year.
so in the process of "nerfing" her jungle.. they actually barely hurt it at all and completely GUT her laning.. FORCING her into the jungle
and once nid winrate in the other roles dropped below 30%, the sites stopped tracking it. ( at last one ones that existed back them)
this is why nid's traps are currently 100% worthless for anything other than trying top not facecheck bushes and trying to give a 1 second warning if someone in trying to invade you
to compare her 3 forms of traps
pre rework it was 80 base damage and .4 ap ratio it also cut armor and MR by 20-40% in a 400 range aoe
gave u full ward vision when placed and gave true sight
AFTER her rework (4.10)
they removed the aoe... and they cut the damage to 20 they also removed the true sight and they cut the mana cut by a bit and cut the cooldown by a bit and they completely removed the % armor and magic pen
what they added was an 8% max hp damage that gained 1% per 50 AP (aka a .2 damage ratio) and becuase its max hp damage #they capped this at 200 vs monsters
this was done by the rework team..
but when the BALANCE team said "traps deal too much damage" vs monsters.
no naturally you would expect them to idk...
#LOWER THE FUCKING DAMAGE CAP ON MONSTERS
but no riots "balance" team says
lets completely removed the % hp damage
and they increased her damage from 20 to 40 base damage. and the AP ratio from .02 to .20%
and they changed they also nerfed it even more by hitting the vision on placement and the range it would proc your passive
keep in mid that when u compare this to her PRE-rework traps they deal HALF the damage.. have HALF the ratio dont do aoe dont give true sight (this was later added back to her passive years later) don't even proc passive (or give vision) unless the unit is within 1400 units down from 5500 (btw a max spear travels 1600 units) so they need to be VERY close no lon have the vision on placement radius reduced from around 1200 to 400
and thats why her traps are currently the weakest damaging skill in the entire game.. meanwhile they add % max hp damage to a shit tone of other stuff
but a traps which takes TWO SECOND to even arm after u place it.. gets to deal 40 base damage with a .2 ap ratio does CC the enemy or even reveal them if their not already on the same screen as her.
all riot needed to do was LOWER the cap from 200 to 40.. THATS IT!!
YOUR REWORK TEAM ALREADY IMPLEMENTED A CAP VS MONSTERS.
this was ALSO the change that kicked her out of lanes. ( that dropped the lanes below 30%)
later still the made it completely impossible for nid to lane by removing her pounce reset until lvl 16
and increasing the cooldown from 5 seconds to 6 (along with every other kitty skill)
and TECHNIALLY its IS reduced from 6 seconds to 4 second.
but.. i dont really consider lower the cooldown from 6 seconds to 4 seconds when its an ESCAPE tool that moves u 400 units away..
CudyDarkyz1 votesReading Nidelee's story makes me sad as a Taliyah player.
MLDzXnRRR1 votesReading Nidelee's story makes me sad as a Taliyah player.
Nidalee - messed up kit (why does she heal?), potentially useless as long as the game is not finished fast.
SwiftKitten881 votesNidalee - messed up kit (why does she heal?), potentially useless as long as the game is not finished fast.
nidalee heal is call primal surge, it increases her attack speed and acts as a heal.. nidalee was orginall a laner (like we said. and orginally didnt have kitty form until lvl 6
her heal also takes a LOT of mana.. she normally uses it to heal after a trade if mana permits... but doing so can still be dangerous as it leave u open to another trade after that in which case u will be very low on mana.
as for her jungle? nids heal is to allow her to clear the jungle as an AP champ without having to back
divers generally get hard CC or shields and they stay in the fight until its over were as assassins you usually go in.. do the trade ( or nowadays flat out 1 shot kill the target because of damage creep) but then u GET OUT
and get ready for the next engage
becuase nidale form of "escape" really only moves her barely out of melee range. she still takes damage. she has a heal to heal up before the next engage (if she actaully lives can successfully got out)
lore wise, while her lore is absurdly outdated. riot has since nid has vastayan blood, but is not a true vastaya. (likely from a grandparent)
her parents died to a disease in the jungle and she was raised by cats absorbing the raw magical power of the jungle. (this makes little sense to me as it owuld make one of her parents even more vastaya than she is so why did they die)
( again her lore hasn't been updated since her release into the game in patch 1.0.0.63
so yeah really OUTDATED lore. hint hint nudge nudge lore team
but basically that healing power is what kept her alive and from getting sick and dying alone side her parents.
back to in -game wile this heal is also her attack speed boost and is what u max first in top lane nidalee when u build AD or AD into hybrid.
so there are your reasons why she has a heal and why it fits her kit
MLDzXnRRR1 votesso there are your reasons why she has a heal and why it fits her kit
Heal on assassin/long ranged poke champ will never be balanced. She can randomly win a lane just by walking around and spamming heal when she has a blue buff. Tanks don't care about her and counter her hard, but in typical soloQ game - 5 carries vs 5 carries, she can be a good champ. Getting 1shotted just because you stepped on a trap in bush and she can jump on you now (good that they nerfed the range) is also anti-fun. Nidalee may be a hard champ to play optimally, but she is not very fun to play against - mainly because she tries cheese the enemy jungler, her laning vs melees can be oppressive when she is strong and she falls off like a rock, making taking farm on this champ a crime. Even farmed support will be more useful than fed Nidalee vs meta team comp (if it is a tank meta, picking Nida is just trolling)
SwiftKitten881 votesHeal on assassin/long ranged poke champ will never be balanced.
its been balanced since her release
She can randomly win a lane just by walking around and spamming heal when she has a blue buff.
spamming her heal? her heal is not a spammable spell it has a 12 second cooldown, how long are you going to sit there in lane healing your allies and not jungling. that stament is absurd.. yout either going to get counter ganked or lose half your jungle if u do that.. as as soon as the enemy SEE's nid. she becomes a lot easier to deal with and she needs to land a spear before she can go in...
Tanks don't care about her and counter her hard, but in typical soloQ game - 5 carries vs 5 carries, she can be a good champ.
as does every bruisers in the game, every diver, half the assassins do what she does better wihout needing to land a skillshot and are more mobile and actaully have full resets.. she can can be good with good teamwork this is correct
Getting 1shotted just because you stepped on a trap in bush and she can jump on you now (good that they nerfed the range) is also anti-fun. LOL, are u actually trying to be serious here. nidalee traps do 40 damage with a .2 ap ratio.. as a player who plays nidalee in about half by games.
let me tell you somthing
nidalee damage comes from her spear and her takedown
her takedown does the most damage becuase it its damage is increased based on thier missing hp as it is an execute ability. if the enemy is above 1/3rd hp... takedown isnt going to kill them unless your CRAZY far ahead.
for that scenario you described to happen.. the following this have to happen: 1 the enemy has to be at less that 20% hp.. 2 they have to be a squishy target that nid can kill, 3 they have to already be on the same screen as her 4 they cant be a target she just attempted to kill as her pounce will be on cooldown 5 the trap has to be armed after placement (which takes 2 seconds) 6. they actaully have to step on the trap.
now this HAS happened. to me i HAVE gottewn a kill this was.. THREE TIMES since season 6
three times in about 800 nid games this has happened.
so yeah... it theoretically possible but the chances of that happening.. are astronomically low.
Nidalee may be a hard champ to play optimally, but she is not very fun to play against - mainly because she tries cheese the enemy jungler,
in what way? your not going to get invalded by a nid before she hits lvl 3 unless she is starting at your camp, in which case thats your fault for not doing a 5 point start
her laning vs melees can be oppressive when she is strong and she falls off like a rock, making taking farm on this champ a crime. Even farmed support will be more useful than fed Nidalee vs meta team comp (if it is a tank meta, picking Nida is just trolling)
this is also correct, sadly... by lategame anyways.. nid has a very weak lategame as even if she can deal damage she still needs to land that spear to go in.. and during teamfights unless she has 3 oceans or 2 oceans and a blue... or 1 oceans your your teaming fighting in the jungle. she cant sieage without running out of mana.. and as a squihsy target she cant really pounce in a teamfight first and she would get blown up before she even landed.. nid as never had a good lategame.
she does have a good splitpush though with primal surge and 
, and can backdoor easily enough.
she also has a fairly decent chase a cleanup if there are targets running around from a teamfight.
she isnt completely useless lategame... but most supports are generally more useful during a fight.
she can also force an enage with a 
proc onto a 
's luden proc for a 5 man slow if you have follow up to chase.
ideally when u pick nid your not playing for late game.. but she isn't 100% useless... just like 80% useless XD
SwiftKitten881 votesReading Nidelee's story makes me sad as a Taliyah player.
what i didn't say was i was the person who made the threat asking riot to allow her to jungle becuase :
all her lore is based around her being raised and growing up in the jungle, why cant she jungle?
imagine how i felt after i lost all the lanes i loved to play because of that post.
#ITS ALL MY FAULT [cass-cry]
Hayaishi2 votesOn the flip side, how cool would it be if they could?
I think Riot is smart not to make that a goal, because it would be a lot of work, but if you can find a way to make it work by allowing an ability or a passive do a little extra damage to monsters, why wouldn't you? It's basically free diversity for your game.
Because diversity isn't always good.
Ralanr2 votesThat’s exactly why not everyone can jungle.
GayFluffyUnicorn2 votesBut why does the diversity only have to exist for jungle? Remember toplane kayn? Probably not.
ModKnightsKemplar2 votesWell, this should, ideally, go both ways.
If someone is getting changes to make them good in jungle, that means they are coming from one of the lanes where they are expected to be played. This should help out diversity in other lanes, as a result.
Hi lm Zoe2 votesI agree but Ez should be able to mark blue & red buff tho
Terozu1 votesEzreal W does hit monsters.
Get Ogre Here1 votesEzreal W does hit monsters.
Well I saw a post before that said it doesn't, maybe the extra Q damage doesn't apply?
rtbf761092713 votesEzreal W does hit monsters.
it only hits dragon and baron
Oleandervine1 votesWell, Camille's W DID heal off of jungle monsters when she launched, and the moment people started trying her out as a jungler, Riot nerfed the capability off of her, muttering something about lane sustain or some nonsense.
Get Ogre Here1 votesWell, Camille's W DID heal off of jungle monsters when she launched, and the moment people started trying her out as a jungler, Riot nerfed the capability off of her, muttering something about lane sustain or some nonsense.
Camille jg is super toxic, her ganks are really hard to avoid (near impossible if she knows what she's doing) and post-level 3 she can easily out-duel a lot of other junglers. I'm personally glad it's not viable. (Also she did need the nerf to her lane sustain, it was killing 2 birds with 1 stone.)
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesIt's not viable? The retards of riot nerfed her into a primarily jungler now and guess what it#s super fuckin toxic to play against. In lane she has a lot of counterplay and counter matchups in the jungle tho, dear god.
Larriet1 votesI kind of want Ezreal to jungle just for SSG, rest in peace.
Colton1471 votes
TheSingularity1 votesPrimarily because the jungle used to be softer with a smaller gap between strong and weak and a far more steady slope.
Currently you're either god tier or your crap.
Previously I found allot of abnormal junglers so much fun.
It adds variety. If they get booted out of lane they have somewhere left to go. This way they're more viable in general and it provides more flexibility in team comp
Clapper of Asses1 votesMan i just want 
to jungle );
Ratpie1 votesYou used to be able to jungle nearly any champion. It was a lot more fun, but that was because of how the jungle worked and how the old rune system worked that you could tweak your stats more specifically. With the new rune system and tweaks to jungle, now there are a lot of champions that are nonviable in jungle, and then a few God tier that are so far ahead of most other junglers that you just don't see the variety that used to exist. But I feel like that has happened to every lane. There has always been meta, but season 8 has had the most restrictive meta.
I do not think that they can tweak champs individually to get that viability in jungle without opening game breaking strats. I think the real cure is in how runes and the jungle exist as a whole. There needs to be more choice in what stats champs get, which sounds like that may be coming back, and they need to make early jungle invades not so easy. Some junglers are really weak early, and it is far too easy to put them behind so they can never catch up.
6Sfool1 votesAs a person who mains Yorick jungle, and am trying to bring back Galio jungle, I want to punch you. I will admit that you have a point, some champions are toxic as junglers (Camille). It is irritating though when all that is keeping a champion from being a balanced jungler is one of those "minions only" types of interactions.
Noor Sakata1 votesBecause it's the most broken role
Sire Hippington1 votesWhy wouldn't you? Obviously, if something starts to out perform his intendet roles in the jungle or creates massive gamehealth issues, that needs to be adrssed(with the easiest fixing beeing to revert what ever change enabled them to jungle) But generally speaking, why wouldn't you boost diversity if a simple change is enough? The important part is to not be hesitant on reverting the change if things get problematic(like they should have done with nida waaaaay back)
Jerry SeinfeId1 votesBecause jungle Leona.
Pika Fox1 votesJungle Ezreal has been a thing since like S1, so suggestions on him at least comes from a place where he has historically been a really fun jungler.
chipndip11 votesCamille can jg without it, though.
Heraimish1 votesLore wise it makes sense for Ezreal to be a jungler, because he is an explorer.
Strawberrycocoa1 votesJungle and Support share a common theme of people wanting to play whoever they feel like in the roles regardless of design. Mostly because they're generally the two least desirable slots, so people who get forced into it want to still be able to play who they like.
FOR JUSTICE1 votesImo its because of the mobility creep. Since everyone and their grandmother has some kind of dash in their kit, it makes coming from the most obnoxious gank paths possible. Plus, jungle as a role has historically been the goofiest when it comes to variety.