Commenting on Current Karma Changes (7.1)

SilverSquid··56 votes·4,839 views

A new year, a new season, a new patch, a new Karma?

Well, I guess not. Not many things have changed, but I am more interested in Riot's commentary on her. As some Karma mains have noted, communication about her issues are rare and as a community we are often left in the dark about what Riot plans for a champion in the future, how they currently see them, etc.

So, let's inspect what they wrote about Karma in the most recent patch 7.1

For almost a year, Karma’s enjoyed a slow build-up into becoming the go-to generalist support among League’s top players. This stems from a change made all the way back in 6.6, where we aimed to give her scaling a little more ‘oomph’ so Karma could feel appropriately rewarded for a strong performance. We’re happy with her scaling, but amping up Karma’s base shield in the very same patch led to a massive performance bump that few of her peers could step to. In light of her dominant laning strengths, we’re reverting Karma’s base shield to its previous effectiveness while keeping her growth throughout the game intact.

I remember patch 6.6 very vividly. The Karma community was mostly confused about all the buffs. This was the 4th of 4 straight number buffs in 7 months. I highligthed my worries publicly back then, but still had hopes that my predictions were wrong. My predictions being, that buffing her numbers instead of addressing her issues would lead to problems.

Put shortly: If a champion is kinda good at everything and you keep buffing them, of course they will become better at everything than most champions. As the Karma community kept asking for more direction to her kit and identity, Riot ignored it and just kept pushing her into the meta. Creating a very oppressive and boring presence, instead of an interesting champion, and stealing the show from other enchanters (poor Lulu).

For what it's worth I hope that Karma's rise in popularity brought her issues to the light of day, but I am also very inclined to say "We kinda told you so"

http://i.imgur.com/UNSopqd.png

Quickly addressing the change to Focused Resolve, Karma’s tether actually ticked for damage more often than similar spells. This meant that your natural counterplay (running away) was less effective than it should have been, since Karma would usually get most of the damage before breaking anyways. It’s important to note that while the overall damage of Focused Resolve is staying the same, losing one tick does interfere with her passive’s interaction with Mantra’s cooldown. We still think it’s an appropriate power-down for the Enlightened One paired with the hit to her shield, but we’ll be watching to make sure she doesn’t drop too far as a result.

Now this is where it gets confusing. Let's split this up, shall we?

Karma’s tether actually ticked for damage more often than similar spells.

And this is a problem why? I mean it's one of the few things keeping it from being a straight up copy from LeBlanc's/Morgana's tether, so I thought this was fine.

This meant that your natural counterplay (running away) was less effective than it should have been, since Karma would usually get most of the damage before breaking anyways

Quite the contrary. In my experience it either broke immediately (because you started casting at max range and someone left your range before the tether formed), someone would dash/blink aways immediately (taking only 1 tick) or someone didn't have mobility (and take all 3 ticks).

To my experience it happened really rarely, that the enemy:

  • DIDN'T have a mobility spell they immediately used
  • DID have a better speed buff than Karma that they used to counter Karma's E
  • DID this to successfully break the tether after 1s, but before 2s

This means that those changes:

  • slightly BUFF Karmas damage against anyone using a mobility spell to instantly break it (from 33% to 50%)
  • keep the damage the SAME against anyone being unable to escape her (from 100% to 100%)
  • slightly NERF the damage against anyone in those niche cases (from 66% to 50%)

I am not really complaining about this part, their assesment just seems wrong and it confuses me. How did they decide that this happened so often it was a problem? And how is "running away" an accepted counterplay to a champion that has a slow and a speed buff built into the kit? To me it would make sense if she ticked EVEN MORE OFTEN, to show a clear difference between breaking the tether early or late. But please, if you think I am wrong here, share your experience in the comments!

EDIT: Thinking about it; they probably wanted to syncronize the damage of W and the heal of RW, to make what happens more intuitive. But this would have been a better argument than what Riot presented here.

losing one tick does interfere with her passive’s interaction with Mantra’s cooldown

So you are aware of this "stealth" nerf to her passive - and in turn - her ultimate. I am just wondering.... why? Back in 5.10 you buffed her passive to make her scale better, this indirectly nerfs it again. Which could make sense, because under perfect conditions Karma can currently mantra Q TWICE in 3 seconds. Which is slightly ridiculous. I mean yes, under "perfect conditions" there are quite a few ridiculous champions out there, but still.

http://orig15.deviantart.net/fc0e/f/2012/184/f/2/league_of_legends___chibi_karma_by_tonnelee-d55v9b4.jpg

You know what?

I would have preferred you guys would have left in the shieldbomb instead of starting this buff-nerf nonsense on her. I don't understand why you removed a core mechanic from a champion anyways, to just give her a numbers buff. It makes no sense to me. I mean, I am very impressed with your balancing skills, Riot, but watching you guys keeping Karma from being either an insignificant no-one or an oppressive generalist feels like watching my little brother balance on a knife's edge. It looks very impressive but hurts watching.

So, can't we instead convince my little brother to quit the circus try to give Karma a well deserved niche as a battlemage/enchanter? Something she was, could be and should be? Something that is unclaimed to this day and could enrichen LoL while also making Karma more easy to handle? Isn't that something we all could profit from?

If you agree, please upvote and comment, so we can show Riot we care. If you disagree, please explain, so I can increase my understanding of Karma and her community.

Thanks :D!

57 Comments

Winterkill16 votes

Riot will not change the E+R ever. They will use the excuse that she has been out too long and new Karma players would miss it too much when they did exactly the same thing to old Karma players. Riot doesn't intend to do anything for Karma for the next 3 years. They don't care. I have been a ton fo threads and responding to Red named posts . . . . to get any sort of communication . . . . . and one guy said "I really have nothing to say." Well, you haven't had anything constructive about her for the past 4 years either.

Ryze takes precedence over Karma. Ekko takes precedence over Karma. Jinx takes precedence over Karma. The squirrel Lulu talks to on the Summoners Rift takes precedence over Karma. Riot will do absolutely nothing and I will continue to create threads and show them exactly how they acting. The proof will be thrown right in front of them and Riot will having nothing more to say than, "Ryze is getting a mini rework in 2017 . . . . but champions like Karma, Vlad, Morde, and Shen will be ignored."

SilverSquid13 votes

My brother: I would love to see you at my side, but I feel anger has corrupted you. They don't ignore her out of spite, It's just: 133 others need them too. Which sucks for us and is not nice yet are they evil not, or cruel.

Use "neglective", say "unattentive" shout out: "misslead"! Cause those hurt as much and are just as true But with cursing and threats your sons won't come back You know they never do.

Arakadia1 votes

Sons?

SilverSquid3 votes

It's like saying "you catch more flies with honey".

DKM Bismarck1 votes

The issue with that is Vlad, Morde and Shen are all in fairly weak spots with pretty "okay at best" designs. The only thing about Karma is her design is bad and oppressive like Lulu's was/is, I shouldn't see Karma in 3 different roles so often. Tank Karma top, Mage Karma mid, Supportive Karma support, the fact she can use like half the games items so damn well and end up being oppressive for such a long while tells me she isn't healthy. She needs number nerfs or a rework. Those three are UP, Karma is OP. I wouldn't even liken them to one another because Karma's rework is also considerably older..

Erockandroll2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blade Or Soul,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GMcPYePV,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2017-01-13T09:16:48.853+0000)

The issue with that is Vlad, Morde and Shen are all in fairly weak spots with pretty "okay at best" designs. The only thing about Karma is her design is bad and oppressive like Lulu's was/is, I shouldn't see Karma in 3 different roles so often. Tank Karma top, Mage Karma mid, Supportive Karma support, the fact she can use like half the games items so damn well and end up being oppressive for such a long while tells me she isn't healthy. She needs number nerfs or a rework. Those three are UP, Karma is OP. I wouldn't even liken them to one another because Karma's rework is also considerably older..

I'm beginning to think this is part of the ever growing identity issue that Karma is having. However it doesn't necessarily have to do with her presence in multiple lanes, but rather how those different positions rely on different aspects of her kit. Cause as soon as one particular part of her kit creates an oppressive play pattern, Riot feels obligated to nerf it. And as the end result, after several different builds came and went, Karma was left with a kit that is clearly master of none. Expecially since her abilities lack cohesion to eachother. (Except how they reduce ult cd) and the fact that their is little crossover between each ability. (Riot: "what no, screw shield bomb, mantra-Q is damage, mantra-E is team engage.")

Karma is probably going to need something closer to a rework to actually fix such identity issues. (Multi tool wasn't a good one apparently) Yet that is going to take some time since a) because her visuals arn't awful, and her kit still competitive, she's far from being a priority for a major rework. and b) There's no consensus on what role she's going to fill. Just about any mid lane build will also work top lane, and their are enough people (myself included) who still like playing her as the support.

Ulquiorra9955 votes

But if they reverted it to what it was immediately after the rework (still had a weaker AoE shield and speed boost but also her signature shieldbomb) that excuse'd be null and void. New Karma players won't miss it because it'd still be there just a bit weaker.

And why the hell did they even have to remove the signature skill of a champion? Imagine the outrage if they changed, say, Lee's ultimate to no longer have a knockback in exchange for buffs in other areas. But Karma? Fuck her and her playerbase. And before anyone says "defense and offense on one skill are toxic", I raise you Ivern.

FPSKILLERBOB13 votes

Themeaticly, I love Karma, but shes just so... boring. Rehashed, No identity at all.

BlueBilberry1 votes

{quoted}

Themeaticly, I love Karma, but shes just so... boring. Rehashed, No identity at all.

I don't agree. She's Karma, the Champion with the Built-in Shift key. :)

Kitten of Evil2 votes

Karma, the Champion you Use when Lulu is Weaker in the Current Patch.

Abyssphere8 votes

I don't really have a huge amount to add on the topic of Karma, to be honest, but I had to upvote and comment because this really is excellently written, and your insight into her situation is excellent. I hope that when Riot finally do get around to doing work on Karma, they contact people like you.

Ultîma7 votes

I love Karma, and seeing her constantly buffed or nerfed without any real justification is really annoying. Regarding the W, it was good that it functionned differently, because unlike Leblanc or Morgana's bind, it didn't slow the person being targetted. Karma has to expend E or Q (and therefore more mana) to remain within range - a weakness that isn't shared by the other two characters.

The shield bomb mechanic being removed is even more of a slap to the face, considering it was her signature move and then given to another character after. I feel like Riot does not care for Karma fans at all, even in spite of her rising popularity throughout all of last year. Changes to her always seem to be made without any community input or interraction. Sad considering Syndra mains got exactly what they wanted for their character after the recent ult-nerf debate. I wish Karma mains would get the same kind of decency.

Pyrophilia5 votes

Just give up already. Riot doesn't care.

They literally PHYSICALLY don't give a shit. The sooner you accept that, the better and healthier it will be for you.

I speak from experience. Just let it go. And maybe stop buying RP.

SilverSquid3 votes

This might sound weird, but commentary, critisizm and contribution is my way of coping

Lexyy5 votes

I've been maining Karma for only a year and a half (since I started playing lol), so I don't know what was she like before the rework.

I hate that she got so popular, that only means the nerf is inevitable.

Personally, E nerfs don't really affect me because I love playing her full ap the most. I wish she could be more of a mid lane champion, than a support one.

I don't think she's that op, tbh......

SnugglePuggle946 votes

She was a mid laner first. But Riot pushed her into the support role. I was and still am clearly pissed about that. Leave a champion where they were originally not push it to another lane.

Lexyy1 votes

Yeah, I totally agree. I guess people started playing her support so Riot nerfed to suit that role.

Rosemarch5 votes

After a couple years of me sort of lurking around the boards and hoping to one day see karma be brought up, I'm glad you're posting about this. As imperfect as older karma and 'newer' karma is, I'd love to see some sort of change, if not at least discussion between the rioters about what they can salvage from Karma; I personally was around when the initial rework came out, and slowly came to terms with it. But after multiple changes and tweaks, even what little identity she had in her rework was picked at and shifted, it's a shame how she has so much potential, yet only goes so far ahead from just overbuffed numbers.

IxtaliKing5 votes

A bit late to the party, but I'm wondering when the Live Balance Team will realise that shield bot support Karma is not only unsatisfying (when balanced), but is grossly short selling her. I read Reav3's comment earlier and it bugged me because we're NOT actually asking for a VGU from the Champ Up team to be prioritised, we're asking for directional changes from the Live Balance Team. It was the balance team who put the nail in Karma's coffin and set it ablaze with their 5.10, 6.6, then steady stream of ill-considered nerfs.

I know people must be tired of seeing Karma complaint threads on the boards, but if the Karma community doesn't speak up when she's being mishandled, then we too shoulder the blame when Riot does something we don't like. This is what happened in 5.10, Riot killed Karma and her community was barely present, and the ones who fought were silenced by Riot's little 'yes' men apologists. If we had been this vocal when they were destroying her in 5.10, it might not have happened the way it did.

Dessem4 votes

This meant that your natural counterplay (running away) was less effective than it should have been

I think it's amusing this line could exist in a game that has Irelia's E.

Steelflame4 votes

Lets face it, she originally got her rework at a time of the game where she had no real value. She was a support-mage with high gold scaling but low bases, who was designed to not support an ADC as much as support a tanky bruiser-ish team. Juggernauts didn't, and wouldn't, exist for 3-4 seasons. As a supportish champion, she needed tons of gold to be effective, and yet at the time the support role was literally a boots+wards bot. No items, no nothing, it was boots, wards. Maybe an Aegis if you were feeling frisky. Health stacking wouldn't be a major thing for 1-2 seasons, when the primary value of a %based heal being that it can heal a high hp target very effectively.

Karma was reworked to fit the game at the time, but had she been left alone, the game would have came to her, instead, with a far more unique kit intact than the most generic enchantress support possible, -1 ult.

SilverSquid1 votes

I mean, that's why I played her mostly mid. Or took over once I realized my carry was worthless (which happened a lot in the rating I used to be in)

Also I am more complaining about what they have been doing with her SINCE her rework, not IN her rework.

CasterGilgamesh4 votes

i dont know how you do it man i lost hope in riots balance team when they messed up my Soraka made her into a monstrosity where she is so bland it hurts hell i would rather riot just cope mercy from overwatch and call it a day

SilverSquid3 votes

Well, to quote myself: "commentary, critisizm and contribution is my way of coping"

Besides, if my threads increase the likelyhood of her getting a fair treatment by only 0.01% it was probably worth it already. Or if only one person walks out of this thread understanding her and her issues better. Every step towards my end goal of a fulfilling and balanced Karma helps and a journey of 1000 miles starts with the first step. And then goes on with the next.

I couldn't even think of stopping after the first 500.

Winterkill4 votes

Please tag this post in threads Riot Developers involved on the balance and update team . . . or live game update team . . . . so they read it. Silver is one of the more resourceful Karma players that knows what is best for her and it seems to be ignored by all of the Riot Game Developers. It's already been stated that Karma is not going to be worked on at all this year by the Champ Up team, which is the team that does VGU.

Some of the Developers have openly admitted that no one is talking about Karma right now in house or to the community, which is a MAJOR problem. If Riot can justify talking about specific champions that are not Karma for more than 4 years, it is a problem. We need to make sure they know that she is not "in a good spot right now" when they are continuing to ignore pleas and restoring Karma to her former glory . . . or a version of it so they can do a VGU later on.

IxtaliKing4 votes

I find it hard to believe that the Live Gameplay team doesn't know that people feel this way about Karma. It's ridiculous,

Winterkill1 votes

They don't care when Ryze is the topic of conversation in their meetings. Why talk about Karma's problems when they can talk about Ryze. Choices.

IxtaliKing4 votes

Lol but what I don't get is that most Rioters are completely oblivious to Karma's situation. I mean... I guess it explains a lot as to how her 5.10 changes made it through to live.

Winterkill1 votes

It's easier to change one ability completely than ber entire Mantra system and how it works with all of her abilities.

Sraeg20133 votes

To solve all problems I propose we rename Karma to...

Qarma.

*dun dun duuuun*

Malignis3 votes

Honestly I was so sad when they removed her shieldbomb. It was my favourite part of her kit and it was fun when you had to clear a big minion wave but they were too spread out for the Q to clear them alone. Sadly Riot removing Karma's ability to shield minions would make the effect much more limiting now but I still wish they had kept it.

Corvo Attano2 votes

Herpies

SilverSquid14 votes

Are you currently having a problem with harpies or herpes? Those two problems seem to require vastly different solutions, but let's talk about it. I am sure we can help you!

Corvo Attano2 votes

Harpies

They are everywhere

Oh and about Karma

Shes alright but she does not have much identity, i wish her ult brought a bit more to the table than just, oh hey look my q is a nuke now or tank karma with her w.

SilverSquid2 votes

Shes alright but she does not have much identity, i wish her ult brought a bit more to the table than just, oh hey look my q is a nuke now or tank karma with her w.

It used to. That's the part that hurts so much. But I am glad people start seeing the lost potential!

######PS: I will get you a paladin immediately!

Master Lycan1 votes

"The ranger's have arrived! What is the situation?"

Sraeg20132 votes
Spice POWAH5 votes

"That's what you get for only having three monsters in your deck!"

(If you don't get the reference this'll just be awkward)

Sraeg20131 votes

Yu-Gi-Oh?

Dunno.

Spice POWAH1 votes

Yeah, more specifically, the Yugioh abridged parody.

Lord Boltrix1 votes

Pretty sure she had four monsters, three chicks and a dragon.

Still pretty fucking bad lel.

Malignis2 votes

Honestly I was so sad when they removed her shieldbomb. It was my favourite part of her kit and it was fun when you had to clear a big minion wave but they were too spread out for the Q to clear them alone. Sadly Riot removing Karma's ability to shield minions would make the effect much more limiting now but I still wish they had kept it.

inplane2 votes

I really hope Riot takes her into a more "Support-y Battlemage" direction like how Old Karma was. With today's itemization, it's clear that team-wide shielding is not very healthy. I'd rather have one giant shield than multiple decent shields. I do like a skillshot heal though. That's a pretty unique idea and it's pretty disappointing that they removed the only one from the game.

The most important thing that I'd like Karma to be is to have less range but more impact. Her current kit encourages so many different playstyles that she doesn't have a solid niche. Her Q encourages long-ranged poking but her W encourages close-ranged combat. Seeing how much more fun it is to stay close and outplay, I'd really like to see her boring Q to go.

Warden Karma2 votes

Nice Discussion Silver :)

I still wish Riot would do a "mini rework" like they did in Patch 5.10, but "more in the Direction of Karma's original Theme" (Duality, Decision making, Battlemage etc.). Just to bridge the time between a proper Rework. I know it would be used to justify to not to grant her a rework in the future and would now take ressources away, where they might be needed more. On the other Hand, Riots Mini Rework in Patch 5.10 came out of nowhere if I remember correctly and actually put her in a even worse spot Identity/Uniqueness and skillexpression wise. So who knows if they grant her some tweaks in the meantime and/or we have to wait for another 1,2 years for a rework.



And as always I leave an Idea/inspiration:

This one could be used as her Passive , but might be better when used as her Mantra.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/7/76/Mantra.png [R] Mantra

Cooldown: 45

Mantras Cooldown is only reduced by its own effect and Cooldown Reduction, but not by time. Mantras Cooldown is reduced

  • when hitting enemy Champions with damage by 2 Seconds (1 for AA)
  • aiding allied Champions considered in battle with enemy Champions by 1 Second
  • when Karma is dealt damage (Depending on the amount of Damage dealt; ~10% Health = 1 Second)

Mantra comes Off Cooldown, Karma gains an additional Mantra Charge. Karma can store a maximum of 2 Mantra Charges.

What would be the difference between the current Mantra and this one?

  1. You could have have multiple Mantra charges at once.
  2. It has more a Theme of Balance (Procs on enemies and allies), a Theme of Karma (procs when damage is dealt to her) and a Battlemage Theme (You must be in Battle/Range of enemy).
  3. Since it would not just simple ready up when you wait enough, you need to work for your Mantra Charges. That is also why it can grant CDR when Karma is dealt Damage (which might be unfair otherwise because Passives, which procs and grant benefits for the Champion dealt Damage is difficult to justify Gamehealthwise: Why should an enemy be punished for doing something he/she is supposed to do?)
  4. If used as a Mantra, she can get a new, more interesting Passive, since the current Passive is integrated.
  5. Bonus: It would make sense Lore wise (as her Twin Dragon powers only manifested as Karma and her people were threated by noxians and that Resilience made her more "enlightnend")
Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

Riot have already discussed a lot about Karma. They are aware she was pretty much Riot's biggest failure ever. She'll probably get some work in the Enchanter update if it ever happens. Until then she'll remain in a front row seat on the Buff-Nerf Train.

SilverSquid4 votes

I wouldn't call it "a lot", but there were some good indicators in the past few years. Meddler calling her uninspired and bland, Groovylord admitting her rework wasn't needed.... but still I have no idea WHAT they want to do with her. If she is adressed in the enchanter update in 2018 I want Riot to do it right. And from what I can gather atm, I don't feel like they would.

Until then she'll remain in a front row seat on the Buff-Nerf Train.

I am already feeling sick after 1 year of this crap. How is that not frustrating them more than us?

BastionKross4 votes

Because it's easier to stick Karma on the train then it is to give her an update/rework to fix her issues. Riot is like electricity, it always picks the path of least resistance. Or, in simpler terms, they are lazy as hell; to the point where some things only get done because there's a large outcry for an extended period of time (see dynamic queue).

And yeah, I know there's over 130 other champs in the game all crying for attention. But no one's bringing that up when Ryze gets his annual rework, or Lee gets buffs before every Worlds to ensure he's in them, or Eve is getting tossed in the dumpster every season because the vision changes broke her all over again.

It's not hard to see: some champs get a lot more attention (positive or negative) than others. You have to expect that to a certain degree with a roster this size, but it's over the line into favoritism far too often. Karma just happens to be one of the champs that isn't particularly favored or unfavored, and sometimes that's worse.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

back at it with the karma threads huh

Winterkill3 votes

Yeah. It is because no Department at Riot Games is communicating about Karma. You know all of that communication about Ryze every year . . . . . . is always the topic of conversation with Riot Games.

SilverSquid2 votes

"back"? Did I stop?

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