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Kha/Shaco is such a massive pain in the ass to play against

OHminus··9 votes·6,448 views

To start off, anyone who knows me knows that I absolutely HATED the camouflage/invis changes and the assassin update.

Why? Because it meant that certain champs couldn't be spotted with a pink ward during key moments (such as fights/skirmishes).

While some assassin/vayne players might have enjoyed those changes, I certainly haven't. Because it means certain champions, like Kha'zix and Shaco, can R/Q (o and thank you Riot btw for increasing Shaco's Q duration at early ranks. Such helpful!!!) onto squishies without them even SEEING them and 100-0 them without giving said squishies time to react.

And while we're on the topic of invisibility, why the FUCK can Kha'zix become invisible every time he enters a bush? Did they just take Teemo's passive and place it onto Kha R, but only better? Once Kha becomes level 6 and evolve R, some Kha'zix players LITERALLY just invade the jungle and look to assassinate. Shaco can do that (minus the assassination part before he gets duskblade) but still manages to piss me off because he places boxes in the most random parts of my jungle. And if he's lucky, he'll be around and chunk me out of my jungle. Really, really fun gameplay. And that brings me to the next part.

Damage - why is Kha's damage to unisolated targets so high? And why is isolation range so small? I remember some time ago a target had to be isolated for Kha to do any serious damage. Now, all Kha has to do is abuse Duskblade along with his (ahem) COMPENSATED damage on his autos and Qs to just absolutely melt somebody. Same with Shaco,too - the guy builds Duskblade/Sheen and can start jumping around to start killing people.

Safety - Another one of my gripes. Evolved Kha R and Shaco Q provide too much SAFETY for the ad assassins they are. They can't be spotted by pink wards, one is literally a blink (a la Flash) that allows the champ to escape from almost every heinous situation they throw themselves into, and the other provides invis in EVERY single bush, allowing them to proc duskblade and more importantly juke the HELL out of the enemy team. It's not really fair when 3 people are chasing one low assassin into his own jungle, but then he enters a bush and (a la Rengar) he suddenly appears right behind our adc in the back and manages to one-shot her, and then Es out to SAFETY. This is actually so so stupid.

/end of rant.

35 Comments

skoulker4 votes

Just saying as a Shaco player, there is counterplay. Khazix is overpowered simply because his damage comes from Q, and not autos. This means that tabis don't help as much as they should against him, whereas Shaco is completely countered by them. Also you're either unskilled or uninformed if you think they gave Shaco better stealth with his rework. Early Q duration is next to nothing, and with the damage being changed to only proccing when leaving stealth there is a lot of counterplay. Before the changes "o and thank you Riot btw for increasing Shaco's Q duration at early ranks." Shaco's stealth was 3.5 seconds at all ranks. Now it is 1.5 / 2.25 / 3 / 3.75 / 4.5. So basically until level 7 Shaco has a blink to juke people. Sorry about you being unlucky or unskilled, but that doesn't mean Shaco is overpowered.

OHminus1 votes

Shaco's stealth was 3.5 seconds at all ranks. Now it is 1.5 / 2.25 / 3 / 3.75 / 4.5

That one was mb, read the patch notes backwards. Doesn't change the fact that Shaco's wr is insane and that he is insanely annoying to play against

BLIGHTBRINGER3 votes

So is Zed but I realised there's no point in complaining anymore. I just kind of dealt with the fact that I can't do anything about being deleted by his W + E + Q combo.

But yeah Kha'Zix and Shaco is worse, I agree.

OHminus2 votes

Yea, at least I can see the Zed coming. Also, when Zed R's I know he's going to appear behind my character model in a split second so I could use that to my advantage.

With Kha/Shaco they just appear behind me with no warning and proceed to delete me. Or annoy me with boxes. Whichever comes first.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

I'm fine with Shaco deleting me if it didn't also come with him being so annoyingly hard to kill. Yes Kha does that with his ult too, but Shaco also has splitpushing power which can turn the game into a 5v1 while the rest of his team does whatever they want.

DuskDaUmbreon2 votes

The issue with them isn't stealth. Or the fact that invis isn't shit on by 75g anymore. (That's actually a good change. Why? Because Riot had to shove a lot of power into their other abilities, because their invis was useless at Gold+, when people actually bought wards. Meaning they were legitimately broken in low-tier.)

Why is stealth and invis not a problem anymore? Because we can look at other champions who have stealth and that isn't their issue. As long as you at least have warning before they run at you, they're fine.

The issue with Shaco is the fact that his entire design is toxic. Nobody wants to ever fight him. His entire job is to piss you off. Hell, any jungler who's primary purpose is counterjungling is toxic.

Kha'zix's issue is that he has a metric fuckton of damage. He has way too much damage, and it's instant, and without warning.

OHminus1 votes

As long as you at least have warning before they run at you, they're fine.

But that's the problem. There's absolutely NO warning that this Kha is going to suddenly jump out at me. Shaco's Q puff is normally unseen and thus I don't really see him either.

remakoro2 votes

Im really interested why they had to COMPENSATE for duskblade changes. it almost like duskblade didnt start retarded chain of events by being so overpowered and so out of place that every single champion was running it. It was a new addition and not even that healthy or fun. And now they COMPENSATING for it like it was always supposed to be there. Compensate my supports for Locket changes? Some random buff for 1-2k hp would suffice i think.

webstar19951 votes

HATE SHACO

Step Sis Lux1 votes

They probably buffed his q cuz they wanted to force evolving(?) it first instead of r

OHminus1 votes

I still see a lot of people evolving R. And personally, I think nerfing the evolved R is a better solution to the problem than making other evolutions more enticing.

Step Sis Lux1 votes

{quoted}

I still see a lot of people evolving R. And personally, I think nerfing the evolved R is a better solution to the problem than making other evolutions more enticing.

They justshould nerf ad assasins burst, they are invisible and what u are uppose to do?xD

Ramyskie1 votes

Get a good team that counter invade kha zix, BAM easy win. But that never happens '>'

FOR JUSTICE1 votes

{quoted}

Get a good team

we play soloque here sir

tobequitefrank1 votes

THIS IS THE POINT OF THESE CHAMPIONS THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO HAVE THAT GAME PLAY AND YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO FIGURE YOUR WAY AROUND THEM. you people would just love it if every champion were the same. lmao if you cant beat em join em how bout that?

OHminus1 votes

lmao if you cant beat em join em how bout that?

Yea, I hate these kinds of arguments. Why don't you just play XXX champion if you think they're so OP? Uhh....because I have champions I like and actually want to play? Tyvm

THIS IS THE POINT OF THESE CHAMPIONS THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO HAVE THAT GAME PLAY AND YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO FIGURE YOUR WAY AROUND THEM.

Yea, let me just figure out a way to counter Kha'zix burst other than playing a tank

you people would just love it if every champion were the same

Where did you get this idea from? Every champ is diverse and that's the reason players play this game and play different champions. The problem with the aforementioned 2 is that they insta-one shot you from stealth without a chance for you to react.

O, and btw, congratulations for winning dumbest comment on this thread

ShaolinToilet1 votes

Kha has plenty of counters but players like you are just too lazy or greedy to use them

OHminus1 votes

Sure. Whenever I play Vi, I usually shit on Kha because post 6 with ult I can keep him subdued long enough to outduel him. The problem is when I play support or adc - even on Braum, when I go to ward he kills me in 2-3 seconds from stealth with little to no time to react.

ShaolinToilet1 votes

Play any mage with cc or any enchanter and he can't do anything in team fights. Ward with 2 people. If he has his q he is going to delete you unless you're Ali or janna

tobequitefrank1 votes

evelynn is a fully invisible champion that jungles you forget about her

3ternalkarma1 votes

{quoted}

evelynn is a fully invisible champion that jungles you forget about her

she is not exactly she is camo and you know shes coming when she puts her charm above your head. kha and shaco just spawn on your face with their middle fingers in the air

OHminus1 votes
  1. Her stealth is camouflage
  2. She's almost as bad as Kayn early
  3. She normally can't oneshot me by E+Q+Q+Q+R, which is her full combo if she doesnt want to send a signal to the enemy team
JRobin311 votes

item 2055 Only sees champions that you don't need to see... (still costs 75 gp)

But fear not! For RIOT has given you a free trinket designed to solve your problems...?

item 3341 / item 3364

Yes, that's right! These nifty little trinkets grant true sight, which means they can be used to track down invisible enemy champions! Yes, you may die before you activate your trinket, but there's always the chance that you will use it in a random location and spot the enemy (who will promptly run way for the duration of the effect, then sneak attack you while it is on cooldown)!

OHminus1 votes

Dunno if this is meant to be sarcastic or not. If yes, cool. Nice one haha.

If not - buying red trinkets to MAYBE spot out these champions is not worth it at all. You're giving up the actual intended use, which is to clear vision.

JRobin311 votes

Yes, that is sarcasm you detect.

5050BS1 votes

Stealth in general is toxic

There is no couterplay like there use to with pink wards

Kaìju1 votes

Playing against assassins all comes down to what tools are available and how fed everyone is. I just played an Ashe game where I first bought BT into Hurricane into IE. My reasoning was that they have Lethality MF and Zed, so I want to be able to survive. Zed was kinda fed, he had Youmuus and Duskblade. I had BT and Hurricane. He knew to go for me, so I made a miracle play I saw the split second before he melted me and just, used my flash! Crazy idea I know.

Honestly though, I understand assassins are annoying to deal with but they aren't these all powerful 0 counterplay champions. They have generally only one nuke combo and if you avoid it you can then hunt them down. You itemize against them, save your important cooldowns, and tighten up your play.

And for the record, I would much rather play against Zed and Kha than Shaco and Talon.

Kaìju1 votes

Playing against assassins all comes down to what tools are available and how fed everyone is. I just played an Ashe game where I first bought BT into Hurricane into IE. My reasoning was that they have Lethality MF and Zed, so I want to be able to survive. Zed was kinda fed, he had Youmuus and Duskblade. I had BT and Hurricane. He knew to go for me, so I made a miracle play. I saw the split second before he melted me and just, used my flash! Crazy idea I know.

Honestly though, I understand assassins are annoying to deal with but they aren't these all powerful 0 counterplay champions. They have generally only one nuke combo and if you avoid it you can then hunt them down. You itemize against them, save your important cooldowns, and tighten up your play.

And for the record, I would much rather play against Zed and Kha than Shaco and Talon.

OHminus1 votes

only one nuke combo

Yes, but Kha's nuke combo is just oppressive. There may be some counterplay (grouping together as 5 and jumping on him as soon as he appears) but that's just unhealthy and unfun. And from what I've seen, nothing stops the 6/2 Kha from just appearing right behind our adc and bursting him down before dying himself.

Kaìju1 votes

Does Kha use E to get onto the carry? And does he remain invisible when he uses E?

OHminus1 votes

Generally, no. R duration + bonus movement speed is long enough that he can travel to the backline. My guess is that he uses E to position himself within range of R/bush stealth and proceed to melt faces afterwards. Granted, everytime a Kha'zix player does this, we burst him down afterwards, but it's definitely not fun for the adc player that basically doesn't get to play the game.

Kaìju1 votes

I suppose so, but maybe those same ADC players should opt into defensive items like PD, DD, and BT to not get one shot and perhaps escape enough to heal back up. If I can deal with Kha as Ashe and not cry about it others should be able to on someone like Ezreal or Vayne.

Mighty Mortein1 votes

Shaco with the level 3 cheese gank after red. Always fun.

hhaavviikk1 votes

atleast shaco can't escape after engaging with his Q, kha`zix just E's in kills someone and lols out with his E and stealth again

Gildarzt1 votes

{quoted}

(o and thank you Riot btw for increasing Shaco's Q duration at early ranks. Such helpful!!!)

Wait, what?

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