PSA: Champion mains CAN have a say on how OP their main is

OHminus·Jul 22, 2016·42 votes·2,449 views

Just because someone mains a champ and doesn't want to see that champ nerfed to the ground does NOT mean that that person is completely blind and oblivious to how OP that champion is.

Mains of a certain champ actually SHOULD have a say because they play that champion a lot more than the other circlejerkers on the boards, and thus know the strengths and weaknesses (or lack thereof) of the champion in discussion.

It amazes me how certain circlejerkers just discredit champion mains whenever they try to make a reasonable point on the boards.

92 Comments

RcGjWO640wJul 22, 201611 votes

Vi is a good example. Almost no one like playing against a Vi. She hits you like a runaway minivan and dunks you into the next life, but god is she hard to play against duelists. If she gets the drop on you, you're dead, but you deserve to be because you likely didn't ward well enough. Against someone who can survive her burst and duel her back harder, such as Jax or Olaf, she gets wrecked pathetically. Yeah, Vi CAN build as a duelist, but that's not really why you bring Vi to the party.

lllusive ManJul 22, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Vi is a good example. Almost no one like playing against a Vi. She hits you like a runaway minivan and dunks you into the next life, but god is she hard to play against duelists. If she gets the drop on you, you're dead, but you deserve to be because you likely didn't ward well enough. Against someone who can survive her burst and duel her back harder, such as Jax or Olaf, she gets wrecked pathetically. Yeah, Vi CAN build as a duelist, but that's not really why you bring Vi to the party.

illaoi is a good example too i see the site of the enemy clearly that shes frustrating to play against but actually you can beat her easy and people who cry for an nerf are just learning resistend

RcGjWO640wJul 22, 20163 votes

Countering Illaoi, at least to me, seems more like a game of exploiting cooldowns than anything. While she has all of her cds up, she's really hard to deal with since she has a lot of burst and great sustain, not to mention retarded lifesteal. Then again, 1 ignite or god forbid, your AD champs having the single brain cell required to build a item 3033 that shuts her down almost by itself.

Also, I don't get why so many people run away when she grabs your spirit. BEAT THAT BITCHES ASS if she's going to stand there like a dipshit and punch your vessel. You will always do more damage to her than she can do to you in a 1v1 scenario.

KingnewgameplusJul 22, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Countering Illaoi, at least to me, seems more like a game of exploiting cooldowns than anything. While she has all of her cds up, she's really hard to deal with since she has a lot of burst and great sustain, not to mention retarded lifesteal. Then again, 1 ignite or god forbid, your AD champs having the single brain cell required to build a that shuts her down almost by itself.

Also, I don't get why so many people run away when she grabs your spirit. BEAT THAT BITCHES ASS if she's going to stand there like a dipshit and punch your vessel. You will always do more damage to her than she can do to you in a 1v1 scenario.

Don't duel illaoi if your soul is pulled out, because if she hits both you and the soul with her q she will do a metric fuckton of damage to you.

Toplane FencerJul 23, 20161 votes

Running is much better. Why not 1v1 when she doesn't have the e? There's no reason to 1v1 her when she pulls your soul.

Aatrox Mid 1v5Jul 23, 20161 votes

i would beat dat ass but if she lands her tentacles... oh boy the slam damage

Toplane FencerJul 23, 20161 votes

It's so fun to play against Vi if you're playing Fiora, she really doesn't stand a chance.

Slamurai JackJul 22, 20169 votes

Ha, I haven't been allowed to have an opinion for a good 2 1/2 years now.

Handin Out NapsJul 22, 20165 votes

Should have mained a tank or mage. :^)

Slamurai JackJul 22, 201615 votes

It's funny because I actually main 3 champs. Yasuo Sejuani Velkoz

When I tell people that Yasuo really isn't that big of a deal and is above average at best, I get told to stfu for being a biased Yasuo main and to stop trying to protect my 50ish% winrate freelo.

When I tell people that Sejuani and Vel'koz are completely busted and easily among the best champs at their roles, I get told to stfu and stop trying to brag about about good I am. I have around a 60% winrate on both champs. I have a 50% winrate on the "freelo" champ. Does not compute.

UlriahJul 22, 20168 votes

Yasuo is way, way, WAAAAYYY more complex than Sej and Vel combined, and way harder to master. Therefore, the problem with him is not that the champ itself is ''freelo'', but thanks to his overloaded kit a good Yasuo player can be terrifying. Not to mention if his team has someone with AoE knock-up.

Also, one of his ''weaknesses'' is that he doesn't have any escape from ganks (just something I picked up from Valkrin), so, if I'm facing a Yasuo, and my jungler is a farmer or just doesn't want to gank my lane, then I guess Yasuo doesn't really have any weakness.

If you think I'm wrong, then by all means, I'm open to any advice of how to beat Yasuo in lane, more specifically how to deal with his mobility.

ƒoesJul 23, 20161 votes

There's quite a big deal of champions who counter Yasuo. Any way to hard CC him is a good way. Jax, Irelia, Darius, Fiora, etc, all counter Yasuo a lot because they all can either outdamage him, hard CC him, block autos, or have too much armor for the Yasuo to deal with.

Even slows have an effect on Yasuo. Just do it when he doesn't have too many means of escape with his E, and try to bait out his Windwall. It's on a 26-second cooldown until he levels it up the second time, which will be at level 14. Of course, by then, he may have some cooldown reduction (based on his build, usually only if he has Triforce, which gives him 20% CDR - if he has Thunderlord's, there is a chance he will have 5% CDR at the start of the game).

Basically, just CC him and bait out his Windwall. Also, his passive shield is INCREDIBLY easy to proc - I can't stress this enough. Just auto-attack him ONCE and there you have it, he'll be out of it for the next 15 seconds.

RozairJul 22, 20162 votes

i think that the sej and vel being op is more of just a fact that your skilled while i do agree yasuo is freelow. The issue with yasuo is that he is a noob trap, meaning that he is fun to play so you will see him alot but he could do very bad because the player doesnt quite understand the champion. Meanwhile you get someone who has great knowledge of the game and yasuo and thats a very big problem. Its hard to get an accurate measure of how good yasuo actually is because his play rate is so high. I think riot completely misses this because they only go by the hard number facts. The same goes with zed as well as (beleive it or not) Alistar.

Slamurai JackJul 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

i think that the sej and vel being op is more of just a fact that your skilled while i do agree yasuo is freelo.

I'm not going to deny that Im good at Sejuani. I've spent a lot of time optimizing her builds and figuring out the best way to win with her. But this is a little extreme.

http://imgur.com/a/XM801

Skins ProjectJul 22, 20161 votes

WHEERE IS THE VELCOZ! WHEREEEEEE

Slamurai JackJul 23, 20161 votes

I haven't been playing the Vel'koz as much simply because mid is just a pain to get these days. He was my highest performing champ in Seasons 4 and 5 however and he's still my 3rd most played champ this season.

WheatloafJul 23, 20161 votes

Gonna have to agree Vel'Koz is strong right now. Part of it is the meta being pretty good for him (Kass coming back in might change that), but he could definitely stand some nerfs. He's fair at the design level though, so he'd have to be downright busted for most people to notice he's strong.

Also, how does Vel fair against actual Yasuos? Usually all I get are fools that expect wind wall to stop my ult. Or for me to never predict their dashes.

Slamurai JackJul 23, 20161 votes

The laning phase can be rough if you're not careful and the Yasuo is ready to punish your mistakes. But once teamfights start, Vel dominates. He simply does too much indiscriminate AOE damage for Yasuo to handle. Granted, the dynamic changes a bit if the Yasuo has something like a Malphite on his team. Just gotta be extra careful to not get initiated on in those situations.

Aatrox Mid 1v5Jul 23, 20161 votes

i used to play a lot of yasuo and hes definitely not broken he just snowballs hard with the crit chance. the reason why a lot of the community hates yasuo is because hes just not fun to play against. if youre someone who relys on skillshots like syndra, or if his god damn windwall blocks your everything like ahri. so yeah, i think hes balanced, just not fun to play against. hes easy to focus in teamfights as long as hes not stupidly fed from the laner who got tilted from his presence.

Ashe JungleJul 23, 20162 votes

It's less about him being OP and more about how frustrating he is to play against and how in matchup against ranged champs he has an undue amount of agency to decide how they will interact.

BakedLotionJul 23, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=As3QfBPo,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-07-22T16:19:07.492+0000)

Ha, I haven't been allowed to have an opinion for a good 2 1/2 years now.

Because fuck Yasuo

JofeyyJul 23, 20168 votes

Let me try....

Zed is now a decently balanced High-risk high-reward champion

Hides under desk

Slamurai JackJul 23, 20164 votes

I'm willing to up the ante: Zed is quite weak after his latest nerfs because his harass is now too unreliable and his early game is simply too weak from the combination of the Q and W nerfs. You do basically no damage early game unless you land a double shuriken and his W has an insane 22 second CD at rank 1, so you don't even have that many opportunities to use double shuriken. And any smart mage will play extremely aggressive in lane whenever your W is down since you have no gap closer and your single Q damage is entirely negligible, especially before lvl 5. Sure, you start having the chance to win once you reach lvl 6 but you're lucky to not be significantly behind by that point against mids that punish your garbage early game.

Mira Arya EntheJul 23, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=As3QfBPo,comment-id=00110000,timestamp=2016-07-23T00:48:38.043+0000)

I'm willing to up the ante: Zed is quite weak after his latest nerfs because his harass is now too unreliable and his early game is simply too weak from the combination of the Q and W nerfs. You do basically no damage early game unless you land a double shuriken and his W has an insane 22 second CD at rank 1, so you don't even have that many opportunities to use double shuriken. And any smart mage will play extremely aggressive in lane whenever your W is down since you have no gap closer and your single Q damage is entirely negligible, especially before lvl 5. Sure, you start having the chance to win once you reach lvl 6 but you're lucky to not be significantly behind by that point against mids that punish your garbage early game.

Sounds like healthy assassin design. It needs to be hard to snowball assassins. I like Zed's current state. He can kill me, but it takes effort.

Slamurai JackJul 23, 20162 votes

It takes a fair bit too much effort for how reliant he is on landing significant poke before going for the kill. He has far less reliable harass than Leblanc, a less reliable all in than Talon, Akali, and Fizz, less reliable safety than Ekko, and weaker scaling than Kassadin and Katarina. There's really no good reason to pick Zed over the alternatives at this point, and that's a problem. People like to complain whenever Zed becomes popular but it's still preferable to literally any other mid lane assassin becoming popular.

Mira Arya EntheJul 23, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=As3QfBPo,comment-id=0011000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-23T01:25:56.679+0000)

It takes a fair bit too much effort for how reliant he is on landing significant poke before going for the kill. He has far less reliable harass than Leblanc, a less reliable all in than Talon, Akali, and Fizz, less reliable safety than Ekko, and weaker scaling than Kassadin and Katarina. There's really no good reason to pick Zed over the alternatives at this point, and that's a problem. People like to complain whenever Zed becomes popular but it's still preferable to literally any other mid lane assassin becoming popular.

Yes and no. I still see him banned and picked quite a bit. And getting fed and winning quite a bit. Kass has a crappy win rate right now. So does Akali. Don't know about the others. LeBlanc is too oppressive I agree. But I think the other assassins should be more like Zed, not the other way around. Because I can fight Zed, but still lose to him, or win again him. Based on the skill matchup.

NineTailedMysticJul 23, 20161 votes

Or he can just go somewhere else. Anecdotal evidence ahead, but I had a recent game where the Zed never killed me until 20 min, even after I got moderately camped. Then he just went other places, such as getting a double kill bot lane or going top whenever I leave the lane. He ended 21/7 killing me once that game. Shit's infuriating.

Before you say it, I ping his MIAs minimum once but usually like a mad man and ward. No, this isn't a ranked game so my Silver 2 rank doesn't apply since my normals MMR is high Gold/Low Plat

Slamurai JackJul 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Or he can just go somewhere else. Anecdotal evidence ahead, but I had a recent game where the Zed never killed me until 20 min, even after I got moderately camped. Then he just went other places, such as getting a double kill bot lane or going top whenever I leave the lane. He ended 21/7 killing me once that game. Shit's infuriating.

Believe me, that shit still happens in diamond way too often. I actually like to keep count of just how many kills my team can manage to feed my laner after I've won my lane. The record so far is 31 kills to an Annie. It was really quite impressive actually: I went 17/2 that game and my only 2 deaths were from the Annie flash DFG Ult igniting me. Thankfully, we still managed to win because while the Annie managed to get tons of kills, she also died 18 times.

I miss silver man.

blkKalameetJul 23, 20163 votes

desks are normally made of wood.

nice. flammable. wood.

OHminusJul 23, 20161 votes

Good one m8

In all honesty, if you back up your statement with examples and reasonable arguments, then all should be fine.

Or you can just meme.

http://i.imgur.com/X9GhRlc.jpg

JofeyyJul 23, 20162 votes

Meme? I try my friend, I try

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/CHqgsY67SzU/hqdefault.jpg

Mandang0Jul 22, 20166 votes

Everyone should have a say, but you need a solid argument that's not "I have experience playing the champ".

The biggest problem I have with the champ mains is that they tend to put all the all the responsibility for the problem on the other player: "you deserved to die" rather than accepting that their champion has the tools to force the situations even without misplays.

In general, if I can take your argument and make it about any champ simply by changing the name, it's probably a terrible argument. ("Just shut them down early", "Just CC them", "Just focus them", etc)

UnboundCreatorJul 22, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Everyone should have a say, but you need a solid argument that's not "I have experience playing the champ".

The biggest problem I have with the champ mains is that they tend to put all the all the responsibility for the problem on the other player: "you deserved to die" rather than accepting that their champion has the tools to force the situations even without misplays.

In general, if I can take your argument and make it about any champ simply by changing the name, it's probably a terrible argument. ("Just shut them down early", "Just CC them", "Just focus them", etc)

Logged in to upvote

Mira Arya EntheJul 23, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Everyone should have a say, but you need a solid argument that's not "I have experience playing the champ".

The biggest problem I have with the champ mains is that they tend to put all the all the responsibility for the problem on the other player: "you deserved to die" rather than accepting that their champion has the tools to force the situations even without misplays.

In general, if I can take your argument and make it about any champ simply by changing the name, it's probably a terrible argument. ("Just shut them down early", "Just CC them", "Just focus them", etc)

Logged in to upvote. This is the worst argument in every videogame. It's essentially saying "They aren't OP, just beat them!"

Saying "Just CC them" as if I wasn't using my CC on them. Same with focusing. And "Shut them down early" is so retarded. You can shut down a lot of champs early and they still steamroll. Or just TP/Roam and gank other lanes to snowball. When your solution is "Just (fill in the blank) them." it's probably not a solution, but a vacuum state simplification.

I play Shyvana, Ashe, Lux, Malz and Riven. With a little Leona. If you accuse them of being OP, I will either conceed that and suggest nerfs, or argue through actual game mechanics and scenarios. And offer viable solutions.

KomatoseJul 22, 20164 votes

Ashe main here, I willingly admit that she's broken and will probably be nerfed.

DarkRitualJul 22, 20163 votes

Right after the mage update, I picked up on Zyra. I figured she was so op and would get nerfed pretty quick. Then they buffed her.

I was LupxelJul 22, 20161 votes

Sad sto--- Oh wait. LeL lucky bastard 😁

DarkRitualJul 23, 20161 votes

She became FotM and people learned to play against her :(

GULAG 4 UJul 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Right after the mage update, I picked up on Zyra. I figured she was so op and would get nerfed pretty quick. Then they buffed her.

So I picked up aatrox at level 10 and mained him just to see that he's trash and move on to khha'zix...and they buff the op zyyra. Rito pls.

The12ZodiacKeysJul 23, 20163 votes

Can we have AD Rengar back cause off tank or full tank Rengar is not fun. the first champ i mained and i only get depressed when i use him.

blkKalameetJul 23, 20161 votes

I think this is why he's likely one up for more major work in the assassin update.

his kit has proved problematic to balance. with good numbers he becomes oppressive and anti fun. bearly touch those numbers and he falls off a cliff in most regards.

The12ZodiacKeysJul 23, 20161 votes

I hope so, I miss playing him as an assassin, it doesn't feel right as an engage tank.

blkKalameetJul 23, 20161 votes

he still works decently well as an assassin right now, not as good as he could be doing mind you.

he has rather particular match ups he's good in. just never take him if you even think it's a trundle jungle, he will eat you in your jungle lvl 2. I pick trundle every time there's a rengar...

try ap rengar if you want something fun with him. rather satisfying yelling at somebody and killing them, and the sustain is rather nice as a bonus.

The12ZodiacKeysJul 23, 20161 votes

Never tried ap rengar or seen a trundle jg this season might try it though for the time being.

blkKalameetJul 23, 20161 votes

trundle jungle is really easy and rather powerful against most ad junglers. go blood razor, Bork, then rage blade if you're ahead. tank up after that and you can almost anything. or just go straight tank and reak havoc as you please.

gayIR4Ycg1Jul 22, 20162 votes

Riven is fun but not op not by any stretch of the imagination

HaloDragonXJul 22, 20162 votes

Hey now, I just wanna know why ADC mains are the only class allowed to call their class really weak? They've been strong all season. Graves, Kindred, Lucian, Ezreal, Quinn, MF, Caitlyn, ect. Only a few ADCs are gutter garbage and the rest really good overall. But tanks, I deal no damage to tanks 15% bonus damage exists on LDR.

Squidward DabJul 22, 20162 votes

I think the reason most ADC mains say their champions and class is weak is usually because even if you get fed on an ADC, anyone that has more than 3 kills can usually kill you as you are reliant on your team to keep you safe which I'm not saying is unfair but when you get fed don't you feel you should be able to rely on your team less? But yea I do see where you're coming from

OleandervineJul 22, 20162 votes

To the original topic at hand, most people who main champions tend to be extremely biased towards that champion and will often defend that champion come hell or high water. This is why people often bash OP champ mains, because generally, the mains can't particularly see how OP their champ is because that would mean admitting that they don't have actual skill, and instead are exploiting overblown mechanics. So yes, while mains may understand most of the strengths and weaknesses of their champion, they usually can't admit to all of the faults. This is why Lee Sin and Zed have been so resistant to nerfs over the years; their mains have made cases that "he has a weakness to CC," and "just buy X item and you can counter him" and the infamous "he's a high skill champ, so of course people who master him will destroy others."

OHminusJul 23, 20163 votes

While this may be the case, it's not fair to discount the opinions of ALL Lee/Zed mains. Lee and Zed mains who make reasonable points often get lost in the circlejerking of the boards and get downvoted to high hell just because someone looks into their account and sees 500+ games played on Lee/Zed.