ADCs are pushing APCs out of mid, why isn't this being fixed?

Yenn·Aug 15, 2017·87 votes·3,878 views

Seriously, what's the reason for not addressing this?

We're constantly seeing Sivir, Lucian, and Corki brought mid for a double ADC + double tank team, because it out-performs a standard ADC + APC team in every way. Very few APCs aside from champions with unavoidable front loaded burst, like Annie and Syndra, can deal with an ADC mid once the mid game hits.

Once mid game hits, there's absolutely no way to trade with them, and you're completely fucked if they get in range of you. If you don't kill them in a single rotation, you're either dead or they life steal back to full.

Something needs to change to stop ADCs from being strong mid picks, whether it be gutting their wave clear, life steal, or early game.

122 Comments

LadyRenlyAug 15, 201738 votes

People complain "why do we keep Corki so weak?" This is why. Destroys midlane, then runs it down lane xd and proceeds to triple kill your team solo

LankPantsAug 15, 201711 votes

This is exactly how I feel about Lucian too. Whenever that fucker's viable he's both playable and dominant in every lane. He needs to be left as 42% WR garbage because he's the worst ADC design in the game.

AhristocatsAug 15, 201716 votes

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/lucian/diamond

43% win rate midlane

tell me how he dominates every lane this post is so dumb, AP carries complaining when they can oneshot an entire team just because an adc is being played in 5% of the time midlane

yay nibbersAug 15, 20174 votes

43% average winrate. Which only matters until you look at, on the same page you linked, his winrate/ranked games played and see that it's just people doing it for the first time dragging down the average. His mid 'winrate/ranked games played' graph is actually very similar to ADC Lucian. If you look at all the other stats too, they perform pretty similarly in general. If you only look at average winrate, Support Lucian is OP because it has a 60% winrate.

Also, what AP carries are one-shotting entire teams? A lucky, fed Brand, maybe.

AirKingNeoAug 16, 20171 votes

That is literally the most bullshit argument ever and people are falling for it.

ShablagooAug 17, 20171 votes

Cmon man have you never play any mage with aoe dmg, they literally the only class that can kill three ppl simultaneously with an ult or or their other skills. Mages are literally the epitome of high aoe dmg, other them twitch and yes we know he is cancer idk why right hasnt done anything at all yet.

yay nibbersAug 17, 20171 votes

I have. I routinely play Ahri and sometimes play Brand and Annie. Annie is the only one I can imagine realistically coming close to ONE SHOTTING and entire team, and even then likely only the squishies. Yes, mages can do pretty high damage, but extremely rarely if ever are you going to see any of them 100-0 an entire team at once. At best you might see a Brand or Annie get a lucky double kill because a couple squishies happened to stand near each other, but it's not likely.

ShablagooAug 17, 20171 votes

3 ppl being the three squishies ppl on the team, ori has one of the best wombo combo potential with any one that can get backline. Ofc no whole team are getting oneshot man it was obviously an exaggeration but three squishy backliners get flash ult by annie or get ori ulted from an engage and that's pretty much the teamfight ending there. Mages, idk that apc your taking about, but honestly for the most part literally do well in every phase of the game man, ahri literally is one of the best solo carries and has been for the whole season.

Honestly stop saying this nonsense about mages being pushed out of ur mid lane, if they were the best mid laners would be all adc's, but no adc shows on the top. I understand that bot lane is getting strong and honestly the entire bot lane needs to be looked at but mages are feeling any effect at all, the classes most hit are juggernauts and assassins. Mage itemization is fine, so is the class, what possible thing is there to really complain about other then complaining just to complain.

LankPantsAug 15, 20172 votes

Aren't you the one who was justifying the Syndra nerfs entirely because she's picked in pro play? She's pretty much trash in soloqueue too and yet got nerfed only because of proplay. If you want to be evenhanded here it actually made far more sense to take a shotgun to Lucian over Syndra, he's far more omnipresent in proplay and the current state of mid WILL make him a pick/ban at worlds.

AhristocatsAug 15, 201710 votes

i don't know why am i replying to the one telling me that adc morde is garbage when i'm top 13 morde world and have 73% win rate on 120 adc morde games

{quoted}

Aren't you the one who was justifying the Syndra nerfs entirely because she's picked in pro play? She's pretty much trash in soloqueue

she's trash in the elo where poeple are trash in diamond+ (and i'm generous to put low diamond) she has 48.8% win rate with a high pick rate and this is trash? have you ever seen nautilus win rate sir?

lucian has 43% win rate midlane, THIS IS trash

lucian alone is garbage, his mana cost are too high for him to do something and you complain about him

get a life for fuck sake

WrÆthAug 16, 20172 votes

Shes not even trash in elos where people are trash. Seriously. You could q r and delete a carry, which is hella valuable in low elo.

AirKingNeoAug 15, 20174 votes

Stop presenting facts. These low elo players will never realize that AP is far more powerful than AD right now (hence why out of the top 20 winrates for mid, only 3 are AD; 5 out of the top 20 play rates are AD).

Seriously, even in the face of facts and data, these players will always play their AP victim card. They'll all downvote you. You'll always make bullshit responses. They're all not Platinum or higher.

FairyfleurAug 15, 20171 votes

Why rankshame?

AirKingNeoAug 16, 20171 votes

I'm not. I'm describing a demographic based on how they act.

FairyfleurAug 16, 20172 votes

You're saying, "all mage mains are below platinum". If that isn't rankshaming I don't know what it is. Even if what you're saying can't be described as rankshaming, you're still discrediting the opinions of many based on a rank.

SweedishGunnerAug 15, 201718 votes

Corki is ridiculous and whoever thought Magic damage crits was a good idea is an idiot.

AirKingNeoAug 15, 201712 votes

Yeah I think the original 10% true + 100% physical (his old passive) was better design.

SohleksAug 16, 20171 votes

Yeah and they have watered down his nukes so he can be a faceroll right clicking no CC Cassio. I'd rather go back.

ModWulf HelhammerAug 15, 201724 votes

Sivir? Seriously? Where are you seeing that?

Lucian is only showing up there minutely (because he got picked in LCS), because he gets bullied to hard in bot

Corki has always had a presence as a mid laner due to his mixed damage and poke/spellcaster playstyle.

YennAug 15, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Sivir? Seriously? Where are you seeing that?

Lucian is only showing up there minutely (because he got picked in LCS), because he gets bullied to hard in bot

Corki has always had a presence as a mid laner due to his mixed damage and poke/spellcaster playstyle.

Why would you not play Sivir mid? She wave clears as fast or faster than most mids, she makes for very easy lane ganks, and spell shield shits on anything that could possibly burst her down.

ModWulf HelhammerAug 15, 201718 votes

Can't answer my question with another. Show me a consistent amount of people playing Sivir mid, then we'll talk.

Otherwise this is just another mindless ADC complaint post with no actual substance.

[nice shadow edit. For people just coming to the thread, his comment originally just said "why would you not play Sivir mid?". He has since added some potential 'benefits' of it, while also showing he has barely played Sivir and thinks your spellshield will keep you from getting bursted. And he still hasn't answered my original comment.)

SH AzykanAug 15, 20173 votes

its Yenn what do you expect at this point?

AirKingNeoAug 15, 20171 votes

It's the boards, what should you expect other than whining ADCs are broken and AP champions need buffs.

Jaygo41Aug 15, 20171 votes

Ahh but when I called out mage bias months ago people were so quick to say all I did was play bruisers and that i was a dumb ape

AirKingNeoAug 15, 20171 votes

Man, I just play kayle, some top laners, and ADC.

Jaygo41Aug 15, 20172 votes

Pretty diverse honestly. I guess I meant to say that this bias existed when mages were tearing people to pieces not long ago and we had the good old "battle mage xd" meta of viktor, cassiopeia, vlad, and syndra destroying everything EDIT: when i said the champs were brutally overtuned, people just told me that they're fulfilling their role

SkorchAug 15, 201720 votes

And Quinn goes top, and Graves goes JG, and MF goes support.

And Ziggs goes bot. And Malz, Brand, Annie go support. And Akali, Talon, Fizz go Top.

And Wukong, Jarvan, Maokai goes JG, And Sion, Blitzcrank go Support. And Mordekaiser goes ADC.

And Janna and Soraka go top, And Morgana goes mid.

Note: Some of these arent considered Meta when they do these. But most of them are.

If people want "Champion diversity" In all lanes, then they have to deal with ADCs too.

And dont look at me and say "ADCs are PUSHING APCs out of mid lane, because thats just not true. Mid APCs still have plenty PLENTY high pickrate to deny what you are saying.

Pommel KnightAug 15, 201714 votes

Ziggs got pushed out with adc buffs.
Brand got nerfed.
Malzahar got nerfed.
Annie was nerfed ages ago.
Fizz got gutted 3 times.
Akali was mostly played top anyway.
Wukong, J4 and Maokai were always junglers.
When did Jana and Soraka go top?
Morgana was made as a midlaner, but was a better support.
Quinn didn't get nerfed, lethality did. Also she was a toplaner from start, adc was never her role.
Graves is still viable, but he was nerfed because you couldn't kill him while doing assassin lvl dmg.
MF got nerfed on her e dmg and buffed as adc.

The problem is that adc's are supposed to be backline carries who get killed easily. But when you have twitch healing 300hp per aa while ulting 5 people then that's a problem. Also give me another class that is mandatory for a team. Support isn't really, sight stone is, you even gave examples (Brand, Malzahar).

You can make a whole team of only adc's Top: Quinn Mid: Corki, Lucian Jungle: Graves, Kindred, Twitch Support: MF, Ashe ADC: Every ADC

GayFluffyUnicornAug 15, 20173 votes

No we don't have to deal with adcs. Adcs are not meant to be able to solo lane. The fact that they CAN since the rework shows a glaring problem. Quinn and graves are different in that they don't even build crit except maybe a PD for how broken it is. If someone like lucian should be able to solo lane he shouldn't be able to build crit. If you ever played against lucian mid he is a lanebully and scales better than anything else in the midlane. That's not how it's supposed to work.

LeetriAug 15, 20174 votes

Who says ADCs aren't supposed to solo lane? Originally that's exactly what they did, they were solo mid while the support was laning with the bruiser bot. Only reason they're in a duo lane is because they benefit more from the support than the bruiser.

Ivern and IreliaAug 15, 201714 votes

To be fair Mid lane mages pushed supports out of bot and instead of fixing it, riot made it official. Zyra Malzahar completely outclassed champs like Braum Leona TahmKench last season and earlier this season. After the mage update, many of those mages invaded the bot lane making lots of traditional supports obsolete. Riot even started balancing these mages around the support role and ultimately just re classed those mages as supports, securing their place at bot lane forever. So certain classes stealing other classes' lane is nothing new.

ModAcademy KaynAug 15, 20175 votes

I get Brand and Zyra, but Malz? Really? They half-reverted the damn guy trying to get him out of the Support lane.

An Undead bratAug 15, 20175 votes

You mean they were forced to go bot because in mid they got instagibbed by anything AD?

AirKingNeoAug 15, 20173 votes

Nope! No AD champion was viable enough mid to push them out. Do your research!

It was Syndra, Taliyah, Orianna, and other mages pushing them away.

ArmadillloAug 15, 20173 votes

Don't worry soon every mage player will be supports because of the cancerous ADCs.

Pale PirateAug 15, 20179 votes

#APLIFESMATTER

hhaavviikkAug 15, 20178 votes

because for some reason riot thought ''you know what, ADC's are late game monsters but why not also give them a strong early and mid game?'' and that's what happened for some stupid reason, still hate it, back in season 1/2 there weren't any ADC's beating you early game, a support could kill a ADC 1 vs 1 in the early game, ANYONE could beat the ADC 1 vs 1 early game but not anymore, apparently riot didn't like that, well fine, then how about making every champions strong at all stages of the game? adc's got that treatment so give other classes that treatment as well

EedatAug 15, 20177 votes

Uhhhhhhh, what?

http://imgur.com/a/Jf8qS

KaìjuAug 15, 20176 votes

"ADCs have amazing early game." Seems to be a thing I hear a lot. Weird, I'm still getting dumpsetered all the time as Ashe but I can play Kalista and go 12/3. Some ADCs are overtuned but I would not complain about all of them. And as for sustain, that is probably more due to Bork first item and or Warlords.

BerylCrabAug 15, 20172 votes

{quoted}

"ADCs have amazing early game." Seems to be a thing I hear a lot. Weird, I'm still getting dumpsetered all the time as Ashe but I can play Kalista and go 12/3. Some ADCs are overtuned but I would not complain about all of them. And as for sustain, that is probably more due to Bork first item and or Warlords.

very true, and the funny thing is the reason they are overtuned is because other roles are also being overtuned with the new champions that have come out / are coming out. Lee Sin and Yasuo are huge culprits of this, and just look at kayn, if you see a good kayn player using kayn and you actually believe that shit is fair for a champion like ashe, or ezreal.....i really don't know what to tell you.

SH AzykanAug 15, 20171 votes

ez might be the best adc to deal with a good kayn though? blue build Ez can kite him out forever, even with kayns spammable dash

OyddAWqJ5rAug 15, 20174 votes

honestly alot of things can kite Kayn, he aint that fast especially since his Q locks him at the end, it's like a minor movement boost on a 4 second CD.

BerylCrabAug 15, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=CryF Zykan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GEn0H0Ad,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2017-08-15T12:06:27.496+0000)

ez might be the best adc to deal with a good kayn though? blue build Ez can kite him out forever, even with kayns spammable dash

uhm....is this a troll? you do know what his ult does right? this has to be a troll.

SH AzykanAug 15, 20173 votes

I know exactly what kayns ult does. I also know that ezreal can blink after kayn comes out of his ult. Also compared to every other ADC, Blue build Ezreal is one of the hardest to kill because he actually gets defensive stats on top of the now spammable slow and shortish cd blink to kite with.

BerylCrabAug 15, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=CryF Zykan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GEn0H0Ad,comment-id=00040000000000010000,timestamp=2017-08-15T15:06:49.334+0000)

I know exactly what kayns ult does. I also know that ezreal can blink after kayn comes out of his ult. Also compared to every other ADC, Blue build Ezreal is one of the hardest to kill because he actually gets defensive stats on top of the now spammable slow and shortish cd blink to kite with.

You clearly never play ezreal.

oh my bad. you played him on 3/18/17. one time.

your match history: jinx jinx jinx jinx jhin jhin jhin galio galio galio galio galio galio galio galio galio galio

You should definitely comment on ezreal's balance since you NEVER play him.

AirKingNeoAug 15, 20172 votes

I mean I comment about champions I've never played but that's because I have very good understanding about the game and I also understand how every champion works.

Rockem SockmAug 15, 20176 votes

They want Corki to fill the adc slot when your team is all Ap. He will always be cancer. Ezreal should fill this slot because his waveclear is shit and he can't be abused mid.

Lucian is a mid pick into specific mages that bully others out of mid. He has specific win conditions because he sucks late.

People are copy and passting Lcs shit without understanding why. Remember Mf support? Does your adc even understand the cleanse pick?

It never ends

xToxicOsirisxAug 15, 20175 votes

Who? Which adcs are going mid? Only ones I can think of are Corki, who no longer goes bot, and minutely lucian. I've never seen a sivir mid. Of those three, only 1 of them actually has enough people playing them to register on op.gg, who is corki.

sheldonbunnyAug 15, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Who? Which adcs are going mid? Only ones I can think of are Corki, who no longer goes bot, and minutely lucian. I've never seen a sivir mid. Of those three, only 1 of them actually has enough people playing them to register on op.gg, who is corki.

Mid Ez would count for multiple seasons. Enough for public awareness, but no idea on current popularity.