@Riot is there a mage rework coming?

Danyul Targaryen·Nov 3, 2015·51 votes·14,605 views

The new ad itemization blows ap itemization out of the water and there are so many ap champs that need help. A responce would be nice

93 Comments

RiotMeddlerNov 3, 201540 votes

We haven't decided yet which class of characters/set of items we might tackle once Marksmen are done. Some form of caster's definitely got some appeal, since we've done a couple of auto attacking/AD using classes in juggernauts and marksmen. There's also some good arguments for a subset of tanks or supports too though, since the two classes we've worked on have both been primary damage dealers, so hitting a more utility focused class would offer some good contrast. Finally there's also some appeal in tackling a class that's been hard to balance and itemize for historically, so assassins for example would also have a fair bit of merit as a choice.

As far as quality of choices go I'm with you that the new AD itemization's a big step up. Personally it feels more like AD itemization (for some characters at least) is catching up to where AP itemization's generally been though, rather than eclipsing it.

ErockandrollNov 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

We haven't decided yet which class of characters/set of items we might tackle once Marksmen are done. Some form of caster's definitely got some appeal, since we've done a couple of auto attacking/AD using classes in juggernauts and marksmen. There's also some good arguments for a subset of tanks or supports too though, since the two classes we've worked on have both been primary damage dealers, so hitting a more utility focused class would offer some good contrast. Finally there's also some appeal in tackling a class that's been hard to balance and itemize for historically, so assassins for example would also have a fair bit of merit as a choice.

As far as quality of choices go I'm with you that the new AD itemization's a big step up. Personally it feels more like AD itemization (for some characters at least) is catching up to where AP itemization's generally been though, rather than eclipsing it.

since your reintroducing Executioners calling, (increasing the amount of available GV by 100%), do you think you could take another look at sustain supports? It's getting harder for them to make an impact with the larger amount of healing reduction.

CrazedPorcupineNov 3, 20157 votes

The New Grievous Wounds now only reduces SELF healing by 30%. This is actually a massive buff to sustain supports.

Celeste BenalNov 3, 20152 votes

~~I don't see any changes to Grievous Wounds.~~ Link?

Found this: https://twitter.com/ReinaSweet/status/659977987077509120

Says effect has been reduced to 40%. Nothing about 30% and nothing about only self-heal.

Danyul TargaryenNov 3, 201511 votes

{quoted}

We haven't decided yet which class of characters/set of items we might tackle once Marksmen are done. Some form of caster's definitely got some appeal, since we've done a couple of auto attacking/AD using classes in juggernauts and marksmen. There's also some good arguments for a subset of tanks or supports too though, since the two classes we've worked on have both been primary damage dealers, so hitting a more utility focused class would offer some good contrast. Finally there's also some appeal in tackling a class that's been hard to balance and itemize for historically, so assassins for example would also have a fair bit of merit as a choice.

As far as quality of choices go I'm with you that the new AD itemization's a big step up. Personally it feels more like AD itemization (for some characters at least) is catching up to where AP itemization's generally been though, rather than eclipsing it.

First off thanks for the response Second.. taking 20% damage as bleed and taking less damage from the last champion you attacked is a huge amount of utility better than anything ap champs have . All ap items with utility have ad equivalents, Liadries and bork, rylias and frozen mallet, quicksilver and zhonyas kinda), stick shiz and ludens. Ap champs dont have those 2 things above and its really gonna hurt there damage output. Can u explain to me why your sub sequentially nerfing the only item that ap champs have to defend against ad champs while buffing ad champs tremendously, increeasng the cost of basically all major ap items but are leaving the price of statick shivv and phantom dancer the same when phantom dancer has huge utility on it now, and also im also curious how you expect mages to hit max cdr with the change to ludicity and how theyre gonna have to sacrifice alot to get to max cdr but ad champs wont have to

JustMyBassCannonNov 3, 20158 votes

[{quoted}](name=Danyul Targaryen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GE26aGB8,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-11-03T05:39:23.731+0000)

Second.. taking 20% damage as bleed and taking less damage from the last champion you attacked is a huge amount of utility better than anything ap champs have

Defense =/= Utility. Damage reduction/delay is defensive, not utility.
AP champions still have universally usable HP itemization and Zhonya's Hourglass.

RalanrNov 3, 20159 votes

Not to mention they can build offensively while building defensively. A they have at least one MR item and maybe 2 AP items that provide AP.

WarlockLawNov 3, 20152 votes

The HP itemization ap champs gets is comparable to lifesteal that ad gets. When adc's suddenly get damage reduction and/or health in their builds ap champs should also gain damage reduction and/or sustain to balance it out. As it stands adc itemization out classes ap by miles even without the nerfs to zhonyas

JustMyBassCannonNov 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The HP itemization ap champs gets is comparable to lifesteal that ad gets.

10% Lifesteal is on par with 400 HP after you deal 4000 physical damage post-reduction.

A Bloodthirster or Ravenous Hydra provides enough sustain to be about as much bonus HP as a Rod of Ages at full stacks (Hydra is assuming you have multiple targets in the fight, otherwise it's weak). BotRK, current live Essence Reaver and PBE Death's Dance provide about as much sustain as a Rylai's Crystal Scepter provides HP.

It works a lot better for a mage to have RoA and Rylai's in their first two slots than it does for most champions to stack Lifesteal items before 5th slot.

Never mind that Mages have Armor and MR, whereas ADCs only have MR, and the AD/health items don't benefit ADCs so much as the bruisers who freaking needed them.

When adc's suddenly get damage reduction and/or health in their builds ap champs should also gain damage reduction and/or sustain to balance it out. As it stands adc itemization out classes ap by miles even without the nerfs to zhonyas

Because AP itemization certainly hasn't been ahead of AD itemization for years. /sarcasm

Aceatbl4zeNov 3, 20151 votes

Because Zonyas' passive is so fkin frustrating and op that you should at least pay a decent price for that, You enjoyed to shit on adc way too much and no one complained about it , you are all crying before even testing the patch.

Danyul TargaryenNov 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Because Zonyas' passive is so fkin frustrating and op that you should at least pay a decent price for that, You enjoyed to shit on adc way too much and no one complained about it , you are all crying before even testing the patch.

you sound mad

RalanrNov 3, 20152 votes

May I vote for Assassins? You've had trouble balancing them in the past (at least that's what a lot of people complain about, like with Evelynn ).

Also for class updates, do you look at champions that aren't picked often as well as champions whose kits don't really work?

HellioningNov 3, 201530 votes

AD casters getting an actually good spellvamp option before actual mages are.

That is kinda stupid.

(And honestly, when people complain about AP itemization, they're basically just complaining about Zhonya's.)

ZantumallNov 3, 20152 votes

You know they're buffing WotA, right? It's a full 200g cheaper on the PBE with no loss of stats.

HellioningNov 3, 20151 votes

And it also doesn't have that neat passive.

ZantumallNov 3, 20152 votes

Yeah, but it doesn't need it. The passive on Death's Dance is an anti-burst mechanism, and Zhonya's already fills that role for mages (as do the numerous good Health/AP items, to a lesser extent). Death's Dance just has to be a passive instead of an active because AD carries need to keep auto attacking to be worth anything; most mages can blow their burst combo, pop Zhonya's, and have cooldowns ready when it ends without losing any DPS time.

MiraweaveNov 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, but it doesn't need it. The passive on Death's Dance is an anti-burst mechanism, and Zhonya's already fills that role for mages (as do the numerous good Health/AP items, to a lesser extent). Death's Dance just has to be a passive instead of an active because AD carries need to keep auto attacking to be worth anything; most mages can blow their burst combo, pop Zhonya's, and have cooldowns ready when it ends without losing any DPS time.

Let's ignore the fact that Death's Dance is reasonably gold efficient, while Hourglass after the nerfs is... not something you want to buy in any situation where you don't absolutely need it.

RocketRelmNov 3, 201516 votes

{quoted}

You know they're buffing WotA, right? It's a full 200g cheaper on the PBE with no loss of stats.

While giving AD an 800 gold Grievous Wounds item. I largely feel that buff is there because the "Spell Vamp" has been effectively cut down to 10% from 15%.

ZantumallNov 3, 20152 votes

I really doubt we're going to see GW in every game (although I do think that Executioner's should activate below a certain health threshold, like Morello's does now, but that's beside the point). I suspect that with WotA 200g cheaper it'll be a more appealing option for mages who can make good use of it but don't have enough built-in sustain to warrant buying GW against them, especially manaless champs like Kennen and Katarina who used to buy revolver in lane. I could be wrong, but I don't really see anyone buying Executioner's just to counter a WotA, I feel like it'll mostly only get bought when the enemy team has a Swain/Vlad/Mundo/etc.

Adrian UmbraNov 3, 20152 votes

The Grievous Wounds passive isn't on Executioner's Calling, it's on Last Whisper. Yeah, that armor pen item bought by just about every ADC already? It cuts down on healing now. People who play healing dependent champions aren't exactly happy about this.

The Ginger NingaNov 3, 20153 votes

It's on Executioner's Calling, not on Last Whisper, but those two items combine to make a new item with both of their passives.

Adrian UmbraNov 3, 20151 votes

Oh cool, thanks for the correction, haven't been all that up to date with the specific preseason changes. Still, with Riot encouraging the item with the absurd amount of lifesteal and healing ADCs are getting (not to mention the damage reduction), it still means that healing based champions are going to get screwed by this, especially since it doesn't really have the same limits that Morellonomicon does.

XyltinNov 5, 20151 votes

It actually has more limits. Morellos is overall a good item with a passive that nobody cares about. Morellos needs to be good without the passive or else nobody would get it.

The new LW upgrades are differnt. there are 2 (riot even said a 3rd is probably coming later this season) options. One that reduces healing and the other one increases AA dmg by up to 15% if a target has more max HP than you, which is the case for most champs comapred to ADCs. AD assassins, brusiers, juggernauts, casters, ... even backline supports with Sightstone have more HP than ADCs. With only +500 HP a caster takes 15% more AA dmg from ADCs. So a caster that builds ROA or Rylais actually wasted all the gold for the HP stat because he will die in nearly the same time against an ADC.

Having to decide between healing reduction and that +0-15% AA dmg passive, most people will go fo the AA enhancement except they have a very problematic Mundo or Aatrox on the enemies team and no Morellos and Ignite. Sacrificing so much for a healing reduction that doesn't even counter Soraka anymore (only counters self sustain, not healing from other champs) is a huge thing for DDs and no easy choice.

It is very likely that Riot has to reduce some healing effects in the late game due to the nerfed healing reduction (Soraka, Heal and maybe even soem self sustain like Mundos rank 3 ult).

Celeste BenalNov 3, 20151 votes

Incorrect. It is indeed on Executioner's Calling and its higher tier item. Last Whisper and up has bonus armor pen.

Adrian UmbraNov 4, 20151 votes

I'm aware of this now, see my reply to the above post.

StephenizgodNov 3, 20151 votes

Executioner's Calling and Last Whisper combine to make Mortal Reminder or something like that, i forget what its called but basically yes... we will be seeing it every game.

XyltinNov 5, 20151 votes

Getting the GW LW will help against the healing, but ADCs are sacrificing the 15% bonus dmg vs most frontline targets, which is huge. Do you really think they are throwing that away to counter 40% of a single WotA? WotA has good sustain if it comes to sieging or really close fights.

And don't forget that a lot of AP mids already had a morellos anyways.

And Death's Dance only has 12% raw dmg as LS while WotA still has 15%. that is a huge difference. It also costs 900 more gold and has no smaller version that can give you sustain. if you want to go for a certain stat/passive/active and you need to wait for 3.4k gold to actually get it, it makes the stat/passive/active very unattractive for the early game.

Look at the current ER. Actually a good item, but when you get it, you actually want to use the sustain in the laning phase (same with WotA), but you need to get to the finished item before you are able to cover that weakness of yours with its bonuses. WotA doesn't have that problem.

Death's Dance has a similar problem. The only good thing about it is that it also offers the 3 sec dmg delay for 12% of the incoming dmg. that was good when it was 20% or if it would still be 5 sec, but that passive is not that strong anymore and the item loses to most other dmg items for giving less sustain than WotA for way more gold when it comes to AD casters. It gives more sustain to AA champs due to the constant DPS instead of bursting.

RedCycloneNov 3, 20156 votes

Considering how AP utility supports have been at the back of the line of the meta for 2 years now, I sincerely hope you do something about the tank support domination that has been clearly rampant over this year Maybe the preseason changes may shift the meta a little, but I can't help but think that because tank supports all can survive, get people kills and peel effectively, there isn't much point for squishy supports who need AP to get their utility to do anything, nothing much will change

g07h4xf00Nov 3, 20153 votes

{quoted}

We haven't decided yet which class of characters/set of items we might tackle once Marksmen are done. Some form of caster's definitely got some appeal, since we've done a couple of auto attacking/AD using classes in juggernauts and marksmen. There's also some good arguments for a subset of tanks or supports too though, since the two classes we've worked on have both been primary damage dealers, so hitting a more utility focused class would offer some good contrast. Finally there's also some appeal in tackling a class that's been hard to balance and itemize for historically, so assassins for example would also have a fair bit of merit as a choice.

As far as quality of choices go I'm with you that the new AD itemization's a big step up. Personally it feels more like AD itemization (for some characters at least) is catching up to where AP itemization's generally been though, rather than eclipsing it.

It's 100% eclipsing it, are you kidding me???? It's even worse because armor items are a fucking joke now whereas MR items are were buffed like crazy.

Silents429Nov 3, 20155 votes

I personally want assassins looked at, they are always plagued with problems it seems like and I avoid champions that are balance nightmares.

SolideusNov 3, 20153 votes

One that'd be be great is tackling the form-swappers! Elise Jayce Nidalee They could really use the work, getting them closer to the design-values of Gnar and Rek'Sai, but I guess it could be a bigger project than most.

EvilMerodachNov 3, 20154 votes

{quoted}

We haven't decided yet which class of characters/set of items we might tackle once Marksmen are done. Some form of caster's definitely got some appeal, since we've done a couple of auto attacking/AD using classes in juggernauts and marksmen. There's also some good arguments for a subset of tanks or supports too though, since the two classes we've worked on have both been primary damage dealers, so hitting a more utility focused class would offer some good contrast. Finally there's also some appeal in tackling a class that's been hard to balance and itemize for historically, so assassins for example would also have a fair bit of merit as a choice.

As far as quality of choices go I'm with you that the new AD itemization's a big step up. Personally it feels more like AD itemization (for some characters at least) is catching up to where AP itemization's generally been though, rather than eclipsing it.

I vote ad casters DrMundo Jayce Khazix Olaf Pantheon Talon Or melee ap's Akali Diana Evelynn Katarina Nunu

Not for buffs or nerfs, itemization maybe? Or just some general gameplay changes for them. Those both seem to be a pretty awkward state. Feast/famine or over/under tuned. None of those seem to have a happy medium with the way the game works around them.

EG: panth seem to be in an 'ok' spot right now, but getting a buff by way of blocking AA based cc's....he might go to OP levels, then a minor nerf to his stats to fix that might make him unviable. No middle grounds.

I know people want tanks to work, but I feel like tanks can be fixed by number tweeks/slight item buffs/nerfs. I don't think they need as big of an overhaul as people think.

Akali, Kat, Eve, and Kha are more or less known to be unbalanceable by way of numbers. Because they've been changed a lot, and still have not felt right in a long time. They need something bigger to make them work out.

SpoofghoulNov 3, 20151 votes

Actually i do think tanks need an overhaul and not just numbers tweaking or item buffing. They are simply to binary now they become hard to kill and have cc thats it. Yes they are slightly different but thats pretty much what they do engage and soak damage. In which case the most reliable one's will always come out on top. lIke Malphite or Maokai their cc is hard to dodge and they have good defense steroid.

Btw Mundo and Olaf are not ad casters they are aggro tanks with good innate sustain damage and tenacity. they sit on your caries are difficult to dps down and bring good damage whilst being hard to peel off. They are actually a kind of tank with a very clear unique kind of ability. Think of them as fighter/bruiser tanks.

But all the other tanks do very similar things. They could differentiate in tanking capabilities. Sion needs his passive to stack hp in order to become tanky in the first place, what if for example the health he stacks is added as a red bar, or red health, this hp would be immune to all kinds of %hp damage including %hp true damage(but not flat true damage). Then give his shield a bit of an overhaul too where it lets true damage pass through hitting sion directly but as long as the shield perists he receives 30% less magic damage. This would make him strong vs hyper carries like Vayne and Kog but not any different vs jinx for example, in fact he has low base armor making him the weakest of all tanks vs normal carries. He can potentially become a hypertank but only by stacking this health, which compensates for his weak early game, he only gets more defense vs dps ap and therefore also alot of %hp ap damage if he does not use his shield for damage. meanwhile the rest of his kit is still high risk high reward in terms of cc peel and damage, everything needs to charge up for cc and damage and they are also skillshots making them easy to avoid, but devastating if they land.

Malphite for example already has a powerfull armor steroid and scales with armor. This could be emphasised more by giving him maybe an option to increase his base armor aswell. This would make him very strong vs normal ad dps but less so vs true dmg and magic damage.

Just an example of ideas here. But giving tanks stronger different tanking niches makes one tank more valueble then others in different situations. On top of that they can also differentiate in damage more in terms of overal damage potential, burst, dps, reliable damage, skillshot dependant, magic damage heavy, physical damage heavy. And differences in teamfighting by having better engage or better peel. More utility can also be added to tanks giving them better different niche roles for tank diversity.

While i do agree assasins are in a somewhat bad spot at the moment they can literally only be good for 1 situation and that is picking off soft targets before a fight starts. they often need high base damage and good scaling with mobility, and this often creates problems when they snowball they start bursting tanks and squishies alike which is a bit unhealthy. using mobilty to get some low risk high reward plays which makes it more unhealthy when they start snowballing, i mean look at Riven for example she never has to fight if she doesnt want to which is somehwat unhealthy for snowball reliant champions. First riot needs to find a way to make these champions less snowball reliant, and i dont really have an idea how, right now its stomp or be stomped with alot of peeling otions in items making hings difficult as the game progresses, give them too much free stats and power and they start facerolling over everything else again.

EvilMerodachNov 3, 20157 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bane Saber,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GE26aGB8,comment-id=0000000c0001,timestamp=2015-11-03T13:52:54.082+0000)

Hm, yah, and maybe Yasuo too.

With riven and zed and yas and talon all having huge balance problems. (Garen is unbalanced atm, but that's basically because he's in a new class of champions, not because anything is inherently broken on his kit or class = number tweeks could probably fix him.)

Though they're closer on the end of ad assassins. But still ad casters. (As in, a higher amount of their damage comes from casting skills, other than autoattacks, with champs like Tryndamere Aatrox or Darius being on the opposite end of that, with their skills mostly being for positioning/survivability/etc, and AA's being most of their damage...)

I feel the flaw is AD caster items being the same (for the most part) to AD assassin items. With the items being tuned for AD assassins. So the AD casters will either be strong or weak, depending on how well the AD assassin items work with them. Having their own item class would help a lot. As you could tune the items that are good for AD casters other than the AD casters themselves...which, historically, just doesn't work out.

Now the option is closer to- Buff AD assassin items...and Talon becomes Warlord Destroyer of Worlds again, Riven becomes even more of a pain in the ass...and assassins themselves turn out 'ok.' Or buff/nerf each AD caster, each ending up slightly OP or UP, depending on numbers, and trying to slightly change numbers either makes them OP or unviable. (As we've seen happen with Kha and Talon repeatedly.)

{quoted}

While i do agree assasins are in a somewhat bad spot at the moment they can literally only be good for 1 situation and that is picking off soft targets before a fight starts. they often need high base damage and good scaling with mobility, and this often creates problems when they snowball they start bursting tanks and squishies alike which is a bit unhealthy. using mobilty to get some low risk high reward plays which makes it more unhealthy when they start snowballing, i mean look at Riven for example she never has to fight if she doesnt want to which is somehwat unhealthy for snowball reliant champions. First riot needs to find a way to make these champions less snowball reliant, and i dont really have an idea how, right now its stomp or be stomped with alot of peeling otions in items making hings difficult as the game progresses, give them too much free stats and power and they start facerolling over everything else again.

Which is why I think AD assassins/casters need different itemization/more work, not the tanks. Tweek numbers for tanks, overhaul the snowbally types. Tanks could be fine if their counters weren't so wonky feast/famine type.

TL;DR- You might be able to fix tanks by overhauling tanks, but then AD casters would still need work. I think most of the problem with tanks is because of assassins and ad casters, so if you fix them, tanks might get fixed too along the way, then 3 classes are working/viable.

Just working on tanks would only fix tanks, still leaving Riven out there...being annoying..with her broken ~~kit~~ sword and whatnot.

SpoofghoulNov 3, 20151 votes

Well techically ad assassins are ad casters, They work very similar, they both use abilities to deal damage, they alo get to double dip in the ad stat because it makes their auto attacks scale 1 on 1. Right now there are 2 items coming which are awesome for ad casters specifically namely deaths dance and the new youmous

when i think of ad caster i think of urgot or pantheon or jayce, when i think of ad assasin i think of khazix zed talon.

I think the problems are the outliers like garen/darius as juggernaught with lots of innate damage and tankyness they generaly just build black cleaver for the shred and thats all they need to man handle any tank. the other outliers are champions like fiora with her massive true damage and ability to block everything. Or riven acting as a tribrid of bruiser assasin ad caster with toxic amounts of mobility cc and shielding.

These champions tend to get away with abusing current strong items whilst not being reliant on some of the other weaker items aswell.

Tanks seem to fail against all of these in one situation or another, either their armor get shredded their outsustained their armor or cc gets straight ignored, skillshot cc countered by hyper mobility, or they lack general early game damage or sustain to at least go even to some extend.

Different itemization is pretty difficult since both scale off the same stat, i can see numbers tweaking like scaling and base damages working better for a quickfix.

As for tanks general strengts to tank better worse vs different damage types and enemy types like tanks whom fare well vs juggernaught & ad casters other are better vs hyper carries, etc etc at least then you have options to deal with what the enemy team is picking. But also different situations where they are good at, like a high sustain tank with wave clear and some defensive utility for defending towers, to help defend against splitpushes. Or a siege tank with long ranged poke options.

For the ad users this might also be where differences between ad casters and ad assasins can come in like splitpush vs siege or defensive ad casters or assasins with some form of extra utility. But make them fullfill beter niche options.

Tl;dr item differences will be difficult if they scale off the same stat or, as long as both are ad this will be an imposible task.

EvilMerodachNov 3, 20151 votes

Quick thought on what an AD caster item might be: A: higher cdr than normal on an AD item (but less AD/other stats) B: something reverse of 'on-hit' like item 3091 , where a skill does something extra on spell cast/landing a skillshot, similar to how item 3025 works on Ezreal 's Q, but able to work off of other champions who don't have a skill like Ezreal's Q. (Not saying it has to be an AoE slow like IBG, just something added to a skill hit, not an AA hit. Could be an over time damage, like item 3151 , but made for an AD?) C: something like item 3508 , but not all fk'd like reaver is...

Point would be to give stats/passives/actives that would be really nice for an AD caster to have, but not slot efficient for people who deal most of their damage through straight AA's. Like a burn damage item for landing a skill on Tryndamere would be fairly useless (as he only has 1 skill that could proc it, and he mostly only uses that to get in/out of a fight, half the time not even hitting an enemy champ with it), but it would be insanely good on Jayce , as he could proc it 3 or 4 times in a row.

SpoofghoulNov 3, 20151 votes

You mean something like ludens for ad casters or liandries, well these items technically work on physical spells too they arent really good on them :P

But it should then be something different then what ap's already have. In aram you have this item called entropy which slows and give a small true damage dot. as well as rage passive.

Maybe something like that but then for adcasters im just brainstorming here havent figured a name for it yet but heres teh stats. 3800 gold 275 hp 55 ad Unique passive Manavamp: Casting spells restores 5% of physical damage dealth as mana, halved for aoe effects. Unique passive Energize: Dealing physical damage with spells but not auto attacks grants 35 movementspeed decaying over 2 seconds Unique active Entropy: 150 Seconds cooldown, for the next 5 seconds dealing physical damage reduces The enemies movementspeed by 25% decaying over 1,5 seconds and Deal an additional 20-90 true damage based on lvl, auto attacking and casting spells reduces the cooldown of this active by 2 seconds.

EvilMerodachNov 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You mean something like ludens for ad casters or liandries, well these items technically work on physical spells too they arent really good on them :P

But it should then be something different then what ap's already have. In aram you have this item called entropy which slows and give a small true damage dot. as well as rage passive.

Maybe something like that but then for adcasters im just brainstorming here havent figured a name for it yet but heres teh stats. 3800 gold 275 hp 55 ad Unique passive Manavamp: Casting spells restores 5% of physical damage dealth as mana, halved for aoe effects. Unique passive Energize: Dealing physical damage with spells but not auto attacks grants 35 movementspeed decaying over 2 seconds Unique active Entropy: 150 Seconds cooldown, for the next 5 seconds dealing physical damage reduces The enemies movementspeed by 25% decaying over 1,5 seconds and Deal an additional 20-90 true damage based on lvl, auto attacking and casting spells reduces the cooldown of this active by 2 seconds.

Hm, I'd be scared of the restoring mana part. As that could push Yorick all up in the 'infinite wall of sustain' place that no one likes him being at (because it's boring AF...imagin nasus vs yorick with that item..)

THIS just in: Top lane update, 75minutes in, neither Yorick or Nasus have recalled since level 8, multiple attempts from both teams to gank/and-or talk team mates out of leaving top have failed in misery, with either jungler falling asleep while waiting on top laners to unfreeze the minion wave, or shouts of "MAH STACKS" for each plea from allies to help other lanes.
In light of recent top lane META shifts, top lane has been renamed to 'Alcatraz' shudders

And at the same time it would do nothing for Zed Yasuo DrMundo Aatrox (and anyone else who doesn't have mana resource).

But you are on the right page. Something AD scaling spell casters would want, but straight autoattackers would just rather get something with more raw AD on it.

SpoofghoulNov 3, 20151 votes

Yasuo is pretty broken so he needs no help and mundo isn't an ad caster, aatrox is aa reliant and half his spells scale with ap ... Zed isnt doing too well because everyone counters his ult and and toplane already has better duelists atm. he is also an ad assasin so there is that aswell.

Its actually good to have that mana part on it as a lot of ad casters actually do use mana. And it does not give that much mana back it just makes live a little easier vs all the manaless and energy users who buy vamp scepter and suddenly have infinite lanesustain no i think my item woudl work fairly well as it gives alot of everything but not so much that an ad caster wouldn't need other items.

EvilMerodachNov 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You mean something like ludens for ad casters or liandries, well these items technically work on physical spells too they arent really good on them :P

But it should then be something different then what ap's already have. In aram you have this item called entropy which slows and give a small true damage dot. as well as rage passive.

Maybe something like that but then for adcasters im just brainstorming here havent figured a name for it yet but heres teh stats. 3800 gold 275 hp 55 ad Unique passive Manavamp: Casting spells restores 5% of physical damage dealth as mana, halved for aoe effects. Unique passive Energize: Dealing physical damage with spells but not auto attacks grants 35 movementspeed decaying over 2 seconds Unique active Entropy: 150 Seconds cooldown, for the next 5 seconds dealing physical damage reduces The enemies movementspeed by 25% decaying over 1,5 seconds and Deal an additional 20-90 true damage based on lvl, auto attacking and casting spells reduces the cooldown of this active by 2 seconds.

Possible rough idea for another item: Idea from a mix of- item 3050 + item 3087 or item 3285 + Ryze passive.

Builds from item 3067 + item 1038 + (some gold) 200hp + 10% cdr + 60 AD (So only 10 AD gained from combining..plus the passive...) Passive: Build charges by movement or spell cast, at 100 charges, your next spell cast increases your AD by (20?) and causing abilities that hit enemy champions to reduce other ability cooldowns by 3 seconds (1 for targeted abilities) for the next 10 seconds, 50 second cooldown (starts after the 10 seconds, so 60 seconds between each 'overcharge').

Might be too strong on Jayce/Kha. Might be too niche for anyone else to use...not sure... Just an idea..

SpoofghoulNov 3, 20151 votes

Wow that could be very op x'D ryze zix fotm i think or what of urgot with 0 cooldown on his q O.O holy shit that be ridiculous :D

Passive is interestig though.

Maybe it could work like that momentum from deadmans plate where you build up a charge and at 100 charges you next ability's damage would be calculated as if you had 50 bonus ad. You then build like 15 charges by casting and 1 or so for every teemo you move.

And whenever this triggers your non ultimate cooldowns get reset by 20%

CasterGilgameshNov 3, 20154 votes

I just want Sona to be an Aura support who safely buffs her allies.we don't NEED her to be a poke Mage We DONT need her to be fancy we just want her to do what she was meant to do and that's actually BUFF her team.

rinsujoNov 3, 20152 votes

I miss traditional supports - the rise of carry/tank supports is certainly understandable with the way the game has evolved, but there was a time when utility supports were actually useful and made a difference. I miss that. I miss being able to increase my team's threat by being nearby, that ability to actually make a difference in a teamfight without just being another high-damage dealer or cc machine. To be fair, sometimes I want to do those too, and that's certainly fun, but... sometimes I just want to be underestimated.

Dammit, I need to find a reliable duo partner who fits my ridiculous schedule so I can start supporting again.

CasterGilgameshNov 3, 20153 votes

Ikr I don't know when riot started thinking Utility was op but I guess it is..take Soraka for example

KoboldNov 3, 20155 votes

There are 5 main groups that I see that should be looked at.

Sustainers: Aatrox, Irelia, Warwick, and Zac being the primary focus with Vladimir having an extremely special mention. (I have a low key rework idea for aatrox that I need to get posted later) lesser extent sustainers being Xin, Swain, Renekton, and Nocturne. These are the first on the list as bringing back GW for AD brings them into needing to be looked at.

Supports: Sona, Nami, Karma, and Lulu, as stated by many others as having a similar niche.

Tanks: Amumu, Cho'Gath, Galio, and Rammus need some love and work done with the new changes to items from preseason.

Assassins: Pretty much all of the assassin champions need to be looked at and evaluated on what they should bring compared to what they do bring. As most overlap into other roles and take some part from other roles that are not needed.

Mages: Syndra, Cass, and Ryze being the big three that need work. Syndra needs some love, Cass has had continued work that hasn't bore any fruit, and Ryze has been a balance nightmare on every attempt to rework him.

NagmaNov 3, 20155 votes

before you decide , finish what you started with Cassiopeia

XyltinNov 5, 20151 votes

How about AD assassins/casters? They are getting some item options with the AD itemization changes, but they still lack gameplay (Talon and Kha'Zix). Talon is a very one dimensional champ and should get worked on. Kha is in an ok spot, but it seems that the new jungle actually hurts his early game without giving him more power mid or late (lose a lot of Hp when jungling, new jungle items are delaying him and his playstyle, no full ArPen anymore which hurts AD assassins more than AA based champs because they rely on their burst and CDs) and in the lane I don't think he will ever shine again because he gets bullied too easily without a chance to strike back with enough power except when the enemy is isolated. He can be played in the lane, but is a very hard niche pick.

I would love to see AD assassins actually being a pick out of the mid lane or jungle and champs with options and counters like Zed, who is the best AD assassin. But even Zed has some problems with QSS and Zhonya's and also all the new champs countering him super hard. His ult gets useless in so many scenarios.

I think AD assassins are a small group but there could be a lot of work that would not only help these 3 but even more future AD assassins.

SolideusNov 6, 20151 votes

You picked up the marksman updates pretty quickly after the juggernauts were done; will you try to start the next batch soon after marksmen, also?

ExecutorDillNov 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

We haven't decided yet which class of characters/set of items we might tackle once Marksmen are done. Some form of caster's definitely got some appeal, since we've done a couple of auto attacking/AD using classes in juggernauts and marksmen. There's also some good arguments for a subset of tanks or supports too though, since the two classes we've worked on have both been primary damage dealers, so hitting a more utility focused class would offer some good contrast. Finally there's also some appeal in tackling a class that's been hard to balance and itemize for historically, so assassins for example would also have a fair bit of merit as a choice.

As far as quality of choices go I'm with you that the new AD itemization's a big step up. Personally it feels more like AD itemization (for some characters at least) is catching up to where AP itemization's generally been though, rather than eclipsing it.

Yes I agree assassins need the help. Along with reworking Talon and Akali to make them more cooler will not say shaco cause its evident you guys have something planned for him.

I just hope that Shen rework comes off spectacular xD he's my main.

P3rroNov 7, 20151 votes

A look at the AP Utility Mages would be awesome. Champs like Karma, Lulu, Orianna, and Sona, are what I'm thinking of. They are well-rounded and have options to offer, including buffs, shields/hastes, and CC, while capable of dealing damage if built full Mage. Since this niche is good at enhancing their team, more options for AP + Utility items would be cool to see! Items like that would offer decent AP(40-50 AP) plus a utility effect. Zeke's Herald, Frost Queen's Claim, and Ardent Censer are along the lines of what I'm thinking.