just give garen more spins for building attack speed.

Critmaster Garen·May 5, 2018·102 votes·22,263 views

would solve two problems of his.

1.) crit items would stay good on him after the rework, even when he cant avoid getting crit without attack speed

2.) attack speed items like become more efficient, and he remains a threat even with his spin on cooldown

edit.: 3) precision would become a more viable primary (or seconday) rune path as an alternative to resolve (sorcery), with less wasted stats.

behold my amazing paint skills.

https://imgur.com/NROJOEI

riot recently said that one of their set goals is to add additional build options and ratios to champion kits. obviously, adding AP scalings to garen doesnt make much sense in light of his lore. but adding additional spins for building bonus attack speed would make a lot of sense considering the already existing crit scaling on his abilities.

90 Comments

ModKnightsKemplarMay 5, 201831 votes

I think this could be really good for a Garen mini-rework. It's definitely an interesting idea, and I think it could work as long as they are willing to balance around it.

Critmaster GarenMay 5, 201812 votes

{quoted}

I think this could be really good for a Garen mini-rework. It's definitely an interesting idea, and I think it could work as long as they are willing to balance around it.

im not sure if it even needs to be a mini rework or just straight added. if the tuning is done well, then the crit itemization wont be over the top, and merely a viable alternative to existing builds.

yea, its to expect that it packs more of a punch than a regular bruiser build. youre probably going to be able to go toe to toe with the likes of Yasuo when building like him. but youre also sacrificing health and defense for the item 3046 item 3031 slots, which can be risky on a slower champion. if you build like a melee carry, you should be able to deal damage like a melee carry.

all they have to do is look at

over the course of 3 seconds, how many more times can garen auto attack for his current bonus attack speed
decide how much is one auto attack worth in spins (two? three?)

this is enough to set the scaling. if one auto attack is worth two spins in damage, and he has enough bonus attack speed to auto attack 1 times more over 3 seconds, then he gets two more spins on judgement.

TerozuMay 7, 20181 votes

Dude. 100% crit garen is gonna be doing 20% spin damage as true damage.

0#.#0

I waaaaannnnttsssss this~~~~~

Critmaster GarenMay 7, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Dude. 100% crit garen is gonna be doing 20% spin damage as true damage.

0#.#0

I waaaaannnnttsssss this~~~~~

i dont think the new infinity edge will make it to live with that 20% conversion. its just too much, because it puts the armor threshold for when adc deal more damage than with the old i.e. way too low.

i think the threshold should be around 150 armor instead, as those are the higher values that most fighters reach. not to mention, why do they even have armor pen items, when theyre going to ignore that much armor anyways?

honestly, i hope theyre swapping the true damage conversion for something else entirely. i hate how it shits on % damage reduction abilities that certain fighters and tanks are reliant on.

but having 60% crit chance off two items would be fun, yea.

BeersteinMay 5, 201816 votes

godno

Critmaster GarenMay 5, 201835 votes

{quoted}

godno

godyes.

BeersteinMay 5, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GB38Mw4b,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-05-05T21:35:50.198+0000)

godyes.

Edit: Misunderstood OP.

KhristophorosMay 5, 201817 votes

he wants his favorite champ to not be a troll pick anymore

Critmaster GarenMay 5, 201817 votes

{quoted}

That'd instantly make him overloaded. Unless you want your favorite champ 100% pick/banned it's a bad idea.

actually, it would just widen his itemization options.

i didnt say they should give him 20 extra spins for building 20% attack speed. its all just a matter of tuning the scaling.

Auz the RipperMay 6, 20184 votes

The only way garen would become 100% pick/ban is if they made him literally immortal

BeersteinMay 6, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Auz the Ripper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GB38Mw4b,comment-id=0000000000000002,timestamp=2018-05-06T01:30:03.934+0000)

The only way garen would become 100% pick/ban is if they made him literally immortal

If his spin to win turns him into a tornado I think he'd become more powerful than Darius.

Critmaster GarenMay 6, 20187 votes

{quoted}

If his spin to win turns him into a tornado I think he'd become more powerful than Darius.

the problem is, you see this as a buff, when its not.

if we take a standart bruiser build on garen and say that its 100% effective gold value out of the items he buys, and compare this to a item 3031 item 3046 or item 3078 build, then those builds are currently less than 100% effective, due to inefficient attack speed stats.

what im asking for is to make the attack speed items also 100% (or close to) effective, and a fully viable alternative to the standart bruiser builds.

the idea isnt really to buff him, but more to let us chose more different build pathes on the champion and preserve his crit builds, which are fairly unique for a juggernaut. the only other juggernaut who builds crit on top of my head is mundo, who sometimes picks phantom dancers unto a full defensive build, because it scales up his giant ad steroid on the e.

BeersteinMay 6, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GB38Mw4b,comment-id=000000000000000200000000,timestamp=2018-05-06T02:09:26.705+0000)

the problem is, you see this as a buff, when its not.

if we take a standart bruiser build on garen and say that its 100% effective gold value out of the items he buys, and compare this to a or build, then those builds are currently less than 100% effective, due to inefficient stats.

what im asking for is to make the attack speed items also 100% effective, and a fully viable alternative to the standart bruiser builds.

the idea isnt really to buff him, but more to let us chose more different build pathes on the champion and preserve his crit builds, which are fairly unique for a juggernaut. the only other juggernaut who builds crit on top of my head is mundo, who sometimes picks phantom dancers unto a full defensive build, because it scales up his giant ad steroid on the e.

I guess it's fine as long as it's well thought out. As in 100% attack speed doesn't necessarily mean 100% faster spin. An alternative could even be that while spinning aspd increases his movement speed (but not damage) That'd make him exceptionally sticky without technically giving him power.

Critmaster GarenMay 6, 20183 votes

{quoted}

I guess it's fine as long as it's well thought out. As in 100% attack speed doesn't necessarily mean 100% faster spin.

like i said. the way they could do it, is look at how many extra auto attacks his bonus attack speed would give him over the 3 seconds of a spin.

then look how much damage that would be and how many extra spin ticks would equal that auto attack damage (including spin base damage against a single target). then hed get the appropriate extra ticks on the spin.

BeersteinMay 6, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GB38Mw4b,comment-id=00000000000000020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-06T02:18:09.971+0000)

like i said. the way they could do it, is look at how many extra auto attacks his bonus attack speed would give him over the 3 seconds of a spin.

then look how much damage that would be and how many extra spin ticks would equal that damage (including spin base damage). then hed get the extra ticks on the spin.

It could be a % scale just like some scale off damage. But there's different possibilities from duration, to spin speed (damage), to movement speed cause lol...Spin speed (damage) is what I initially thought you were talking about, which is to say more concentrated damage in a shorter period. Which was my mistake.

I'd say impacting movement speed would actually be the most interesting and unique mechanic while making him perform a lot better. For Garen a lot of what he's about is needing to stick to someone with no legitimate gap closer. This would fix that.

Critmaster GarenMay 6, 20183 votes

{quoted}

It could be a % scale just like some scale off damage. But there's different possibilities from duration, to spin speed (damage), to movement speed cause lol...Spin speed (damage) is what I initially thought you were talking about, which is to say more concentrated damage in a shorter period. Which was my mistake.

well, i was talking about extra spins on the 3 second spin duration, not increasing the duration of the spin.

practically allowing him to spin, lets say for example 15 times with really high attack speed, instead of 10 times during a 3 second spin.

yea, that would be more damage, which would be fair considering you invested gold into an offensive stat, instead of another bruiser or defensive item.

DragonSheaMay 6, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GB38Mw4b,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-05-05T21:35:50.198+0000)

godyes.

and it would make item 3071 redundant on Garen as his spin's will break his opponents armor

Critmaster GarenMay 6, 20183 votes

{quoted}

and it would make redundant on Garen as his spin's will break his opponents armor

cleaver is already redundant. garen has armor shred on his spin, which stacks shitty with cleaver. and youre not seeing a lot of tanks on top lane these days that you need the cleaver.

KhristophorosMay 5, 201813 votes

This would be a good change because of Stormrazor. It looks so good for him except for how much of an attack speed investment it is.

ΦmalphintoΦMay 6, 20187 votes

Actually garen is a mess right now if he get defense items he lack of dmg as a fighter if he get attack items he lack of defense as a fighter can't buy attack speed items like other fighters has no use of life steal items bad toplaner bad engage bad defense early game if you picked him is a free win to poke toplaners he needs his flash all the time to start a fight almost impossible to reach enemy

im really sad for this guy i liked to play him..

2nd ChanceMay 6, 20186 votes

This would certainly be nice compensation for Garen after Riot slowly chipped away his itemization options with nerfs or complete changes/removals

Arcane Blue BoiMay 6, 20185 votes

Look, someone who plays crit garen instead of lethality. My faith on humanity is saved.

YuGiHoMay 6, 20184 votes

Yes please, i hope riot dos not just kill off crit garen.

Ok sure but whyMay 6, 20184 votes

Especially since you now NEED attack speed items (Zeal) for his E to even crit at all

Urgot needs this on his W too

Critmaster GarenMay 6, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ok sure but why,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GB38Mw4b,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-05-06T01:58:21.362+0000)

Especially since you now NEED attack speed items (Zeal) for his E to even crit at all

Urgot needs this on his W too

could also be fun to tune your rune builds to get just enough attack speed to get one more spin.

RagnaveilMay 6, 20181 votes

Issue is:

Urgot's W does NOT crit.
Urgot's W is locked at a solid 3 autos a second.

Auz the RipperMay 6, 20182 votes

Which riot implemented to insure urgot would never buy on-hit items

CronofugeMay 6, 20184 votes

Yeah some champs are being affected by the itemization changes in weird ways. Namely those who want crit for abilities but don't really want attack speed. Ones that come to mind are Garen, MF, and to a lesser degree, gangplank (he builds bruiser-sassin right now anyway)

I like the idea of your change. Building non-defensive items on Garen is a huge risk because he finds it hard to get in, granted the crit items and triforce give, as many people have complained about, movespeed. This could make him stronger in more ways than one but so many champs hard counter him that I don't think it's that big of a deal if he gets 5% movespeed. Besides, who doesn't want to see max attack speed ultra-beyblade garen?

Autrah FangMay 6, 20184 votes

honestly, why isn't it already like this? it just makes too much sense... especially with his E able to crit, and most crit being on attack speed items... (and after the IE and ER changes, it will only be on attack speed items)

Best Ekko NAMay 6, 20184 votes

If they're going to do this, Garen would need either:

Really trash scaling so his spins cannot reach a ridiculous amount or
A hard cap on the amount of spins he is capable of reaching with attack speed.

Garen's E already does a massive amount of damage. The problem with Garen has never been his damage, it's been his inability to reach targets. Giving Garen more damage doesn't solve his core problem of him being the most kite-able laughing stock in League of Legends.

If anything, what Garen really need is less damage and more ability to stick to targets. Every Garen guide I've ever read boasts about how Garen only needs 1 damage item because his base damages are so high. Giving him more spins with attack speed is just adding more unnecessary scalings to his kit where he's already the strongest (damage).

BeersteinMay 6, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Ekko NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GB38Mw4b,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2018-05-06T15:04:31.548+0000)

If they're going to do this, Garen would need either:

Really trash scaling so his spins cannot reach a ridiculous amount or

A hard cap on the amount of spins he is capable of reaching with attack speed.

Garen's E already does a massive amount of damage. The problem with Garen has never been his damage, it's been his inability to reach targets. Giving Garen more damage doesn't solve his core problem of him being the most kite-able laughing stock in League of Legends.

If anything, what Garen really need is less damage and more ability to stick to targets. Every Garen guide I've ever read boasts about how Garen only needs 1 damage item because his base damages are so high. Giving him more spins with attack speed is just adding more unnecessary scalings to his kit where he's already the strongest (damage).

Exactly, that's why I'm saying attack speed should just increase his movement speed while using E rather than do anything else.

Critmaster GarenMay 6, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Exactly, that's why I'm saying attack speed should just increase his movement speed while using E rather than do anything else.

if attack speed were to scale up his spins, it would be literally the same as building a flat ad item on him.

i already explained this to the other guy. if you build item 3077 on garen, then the flat ad value would increase his spin damage through its ad scaling.

if you built item 3086 on him, then the spin damage would increase the same through extra spins, and crits instead. its the same effect.

youre overestimating what kind of effect adding an attack speed scaling to judgement has. in practical terms, it would be the same as building flat ad on garen right now. which would allow him to build items he doesnt use very effectively now, but wouldnt end up as a buff.

Miku AppendMay 6, 20183 votes

Let him beyblade.

IfnethMay 5, 20182 votes

How about we make Judgment apply on-hit effects?

Critmaster GarenMay 5, 20183 votes

{quoted}

How about we make Judgment apply on-hit effects?

people complained that it would allow him to apply single target on hit in an aoe.

there are also some edge cases like how does item 3748 work with that? imo he would just proc it centered on his character, in the direction he moves.

but the coding would probably be more difficult to implement than a simple attack speed scaling. id be happy enough if he could use zeal items to full effect and build

item 3031 item 3046 into bruiser.

DubshokaMay 6, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GB38Mw4b,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-05-05T23:01:50.510+0000)

people complained that it would allow him to apply single target on hit in an aoe.

there are also some edge cases like how does work with that? imo he would just proc it centered on his character, in the direction he moves.

but the coding would probably be more difficult to implement than a simple attack speed scaling. id be happy enough if he could use zeal items to full effect and build

into bruiser.

What I imagine on-hit Judgment would be like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmPGuMGs8cg

RyusaetherMay 6, 20182 votes

Don't know tbh. It's healtier fot juggs to have this "anti-synergy" in theor builds. Id they scale both with AS and AD on their abilities there could be a problem.

Let's take Darius as an example. He benefits a lot from rough Bonus AD and CDR for his scalings, BUT he could use Atk Spd as well to stack his passive. Though investing in one of those stats means losing on the other side, and it's good to have this. So a Darius that invests in Atk Spd can stack his passive faster but loses ability damage and a bit of DPS because of his Q casting time. Now imagine his Q cast time getting reduced with Atk Spd: this would reduce windows and situations of counterplay, because he doesn't only smash you when you're near him but also gets you with short time reaction when you gain space from him.

With Garen is pretty much the same. If he does good dps just by autoing AND he even has an Atk Spd scaling on his E making it deal even more dmg, you can't play neither on his CDs nor his low basic Atk Spd.

Critmaster GarenMay 6, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Don't know tbh. It's healtier fot juggs to have this "anti-synergy" in theor builds. Id they scale both with AS and AD on their abilities there could be a problem.

Let's take Darius as an example. He benefits a lot from rough Bonus AD and CDR for his scalings, BUT he could use Atk Spd as well to stack his passive. Though investing in one of those stats means losing on the other side, and it's good to have this. So a Darius that invests in Atk Spd can stack his passive faster but loses ability damage and a bit of DPS because of his Q casting time. Now imagine his Q cast time getting reduced with Atk Spd: this would reduce windows and situations of counterplay, because he doesn't only smash you when you're near him but also gets you with short time reaction when you gain space from him.

With Garen is pretty much the same. If he does good dps just by autoing AND he even has an Atk Spd scaling on his E making it deal even more dmg, you can't play neither on his CDs nor his low basic Atk Spd.

the comparison between shortening darius q windup and increasing the number of spins on garens e is faulty. the spin is more of a straight damage tool and replacement for auto attacks, while the big thing about darius q is his heal, and the ability to make hitting a darius q easier, or guaranteed is really not comparable to adding a damage scaling on garens spin for building attack speed.

id compare it more to building a flat ad item like item 3077 on garen, vs building a crit/attack speed item like item 3086

the tiamat would scale up the flat damage on the spin through the ad scaling. the zeal would scale up the same damage just by adding more spins, and having some of the spins crit. its the same effect. in both cases also his auto attacks would be more damaging. being it for having more ad, or simply attacking more often with occational crits, with lower ad.

crit builds like that also tend to run lower cdr, since youre mostly going 2 crit items into defensive items like item 3742 that dont provide cooldown reduction.

plus, most juggernauts do scale with attack speed. especially Darius . hence why there are a couple attack speed builds for him, and why he likes building item 3078 over cleaver. he wants to build his stacks as fast as possible. which he does by auto attacking more often. his windows of not basic attacking his opponent, while in q animation are very small to begin with.

DrMundo tends to build item 3046 on occation to scale up the giant ad steroid on his e

Yorick builds triforce and mostly auto attacks in addition to his ghoul damage

Udyr Shyvana Olaf Volibear are practically built around attack speed.

a couple Mordekaiser mains were already excited about the new keystone, because it would mean getting his 3 q hits off very fast.

why would it be an issue to give garen the option for alternative/similar builds?

RyusaetherMay 7, 20182 votes

Heal aside (which I agree is a huge part of his Q), Darius 's Q deals a shitton of dmg with a huge scaling at the cost of having a windup in which you could've used your autos, that's why I brought it as an example, because I thought it was similar to Garen with his toggled E (which shreds armor, not a bad point either, and with that AS scaling would shred it faster).

I agree that juggs do like AS indeed, but I think they'd rather nont invest as much on it, hence why Trinity is usually the only AS item a jugg gets (it gives a lot of useful stats) while they try to get the AS from other sources like keystones/runepaths/alacrity. Because AS items usually don't give the combat stats they use the most (rough dmg and HP) to survive AND deal dmg in a fight. I too buy a PD on Darius once in a while when really fed, and it feels super nice, but the problem of juggs is that they usually replace a tanky toplaner and you won't have a tank in your team to engage, thus making you do a job you're not supposed to do (I mean juggs CAN engage but it's much harder and they take much more dmg during the engage) aand it requires you to be tankier than you would like to be to do such a job. If juggs had the effective possibility to build more combat/dueling stata instead of so many ho and resistances to avoid getting melted, it would be nice and you would probably rather going for that juicy AS, maybe even a Botrk or this like that.

Btw I was too strict in my judgement, it's not that such a change would be so drastic, it would only help out alternative buildpaths, which is good.

LibroMastroMay 6, 20182 votes

Fix his E first, you cant move after it ends

Critmaster GarenMay 6, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Fix his E first, you cant move after it ends

do both. if they were to do this anyways, would be a good time as any to fix that bug.

Yaśuo MainMay 5, 20181 votes

does his E still crit because that's the only reason i would ever build crit on garen

KhristophorosMay 5, 20182 votes

Apparently it can still crit. lol

Critmaster GarenMay 5, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yaśuo Main,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GB38Mw4b,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-05-05T22:05:39.527+0000)

does his E still crit because that's the only reason i would ever build crit on garen

yes. but the crit build has suffered from all the itemization changes that happened over the seasons.

originally, there were more pure AD/crit items in the game. most namely item 3142 item 3031 and atmas impaler. these items easily fit into his regular bruiser builds and had some great synergy with his kit.

with the removal of atmas, the rework of ghostblade, and the upcoming infinity edge changes, garens efficient crit itemization kindof died out over the years. building attack speed is kindof iffy, since garen simply doesnt auto attack half the time hes fighting. so there are a lot of wasted stats on zeal items.

adding attack speed scaling to the number of spin ticks would make these items 100% effective on him, instead of like 75%. which makes crit builds a more viable alternative to classic bruiser-, lethality+predator-, or fake tank builds (glacial augment with righteous glory).

Friendly RamMay 6, 20181 votes

Would increasing the tick rate and shortening the duration work for attack speed?

Critmaster GarenMay 6, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Friendly Ram,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GB38Mw4b,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-05-06T02:06:43.273+0000)

Would increasing the tick rate and shortening the duration work for attack speed?

duration would stay the same. just more ticks in the 3 seconds of the spin imo.

Z3SleeperMay 6, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GB38Mw4b,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-05-05T21:32:18.987+0000)

riot recently said that one of their stated goals is to add additional build options and ratios to champion kits.

Quote please so I can read it? Bout to theorize ratio additions for everyone.

Critmaster GarenMay 6, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Quote please so I can read it? Bout to theorize ratio additions for everyone.

im really too lazy to search for it, but you must have noticed, that they added and readded some ap ratios to champion kits recently. they did direcly say it though.

EROTIC RAID BOSSMay 6, 20181 votes

crit items aren't intended to be good on him lol

they want him to build like a juggernaut ideally.

like its cool you wanna do your own weird off meta thing but they don't need to support it.

Critmaster GarenMay 6, 201810 votes

[{quoted}](name=EROTIC RAID BOSS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GB38Mw4b,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2018-05-06T17:04:09.189+0000)

crit items aren't intended to be good on him lol

they want him to build like a juggernaut ideally.

like its cool you wanna do your own weird off meta thing but they don't need to support it.

the crit scaling has been in his kit since he was added to the game 8 years ago.

its part of his kit, and used to be supported by better items. its not an off meta build, but something that fell out of favour simply due to item reworks and removal of atmas impaler.

he used to be supported by items, that made him a bruiser with critical strike in his builds. but those items were reworked for other classes, since all other champions who want to build critical strike also want it with attack speed. garen is pretty much the only champion who scales with crit, but at the same time doesnt scale with as.

adding as scaling to his spin would allow him to keep his crit builds.