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What is Skarner?

Shahamut··6 votes·1,743 views

I really feel that RIOT has had a hard time defining what role this champion plays. I'll put a tldr at the bottom with my personal conclusulion, but the goal of this thread is to attempt to define Skarner's role as a champion, and somewhat establish his identity.

For starters let's begin with a small history. When Skarner was released, he was shown to be an inescapable predator. He came equipped with a permanent slow once he got on top of you. This was later deemed unfair/unfun and removed.

Without the slows, Skarner initially suffered but he was eventually compensated with a new set of passives: crystal venom allowed Skarner to stun someone if he could land 3 spells on them. His movement speed on w gained a ramp up time and it's attack speed component was removed. His q gained a stacking component granting him move and attack speed. He seemed in a good spot at that time.

Then came the juggernauts. Riot began a process of trying to redefine their champion categories to help players (and them) better understand what their champions do and what roles they perform in the game. It was at this point they labeled Skarner as a juggernaut.

It didn't take long before Riot realized that what they envision a juggernaut to be was NOT what Skarner was. Nor did their magic rock kit change aid in pushing Skarner in that direction. To keep things at least slightly brief, the last I heard them saying is that Skarner is probably more of a vanguard.

I believe that RIOT is still off track, and here are my thoughts:

Skarner is not a juggernaut: Riot has already stated this, but to clear it up to others, I'll share my understanding. Juggernauts are high damage, somewhat tanky fighters that are dangerous to fight head on. They generally don't have great c.c., and are usually immobile. Skarner by contrast deals damage over extended fights. He has a slow, a stun, a suppression, and a move speed steroid. Juggernauts can usually be avoided by simply walking away. Not so as Skarner. My iconic juggernaut would be Illaoi.

I don't believe Skarner to be a vanguard. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but vanguards are initiating tanks. They usually have some way to gap close, accompanied by some kind of aoe c.c. Champions like Sejuani, Amumu, and Malphite come to mind. Skarner has a ramp up speed buff. Not much of a gap closer since he has to run straight at you. On top of that, all of his crowd control is VERY single target focused.

So, what is Skarner? What does he do? Look at his kit. (Ignoring his passive. That is a separate rant) Q- a spammable dps ability, primarily good for procing sheen, an item that has remained core on him since the beginning. W is a shield with a ramp up move speed bonus. His E (overloaded, a different rant) is a ranged slow that can be proced for a stun. His ultimate is a single target suppression and displacement. With all of the single target lockdown and a pure dps ability, ranged slow and a movespeed buff, i really feel like this guy is a duelist. A skirmisher, similar to a Fiora or a Jax. Jax is a duelist, who's function in a teamfight is a diver. Fiora is a carry. Aside from being good at fighting 1v1 and 1v2, what would Skarner provide to a teamfight? His secondary function is a Warden. His single target lockdown is great for stopping assassin's and divers. Is he the best warden? No, and nor should he be.

Tldr- Skarner is a duelist/skirmisher with a secondary function as a warden in team fights. His kit is made for dueling and punishing bad positioning. He is a hunter, so lose the rocks and get back to hunting down those who threaten your sleeping brethren.

"No escape!!" "Now I've got you!!" "Bwahahahahaha!!!"

30 Comments

Joalsm8 votes

[deleted]

Shahamut2 votes

Thank you... just take an upvote... lol

ImTheSideKick3 votes

Skarner is a taxi cab

item 3009 item 3800 item 3142 item 3069 item 3742 item 3139

you ARE coming with me and I AM speeding and I will be OVER CHARGING YOU .. 400 g

Variks the Loyal1 votes

Skarner is way too tanky to be a Skirmisher.

Juggernaut is a proper branding for him. He's just a different variant of Juggernaut than Illaoi. His damage is sustained instead of burst, and sticking power is his unique identity. He's easily kitable if he doesn't land his E.

He wouldn't be the only 'rundown' Juggernaut.Volibear Udyr Olaf

Shahamut1 votes

Your argument still goes against what Riot has already stated in that he isn't a juggernaut...

Sustained damage and sticking power are the OPPOSITE qualities of a juggernaut. That doesn't even make sense lol.

Volibear has to already be on top of you to apply his c.c., Olaf has the ranged slow, but no other c.c. or movement buffs to catch people outside of his ult. His ult makes him a secondary diver, because he can only do that when his ult is up.

I don't think Udyr is a juggernaut.

Variks the Loyal2 votes

Riot doesn't agree on what Skarner is. Some of them say Juggernaut, some say Vanguard, some say Diver (None say Skirmisher).

And that's not true. There's three qualities core to Juggernauts - damage, durability, and a lack of mobility. It doesn't matter if the damage is burst or sustained, magic or physical. They can be sticky so long as they're kitable.

Here's a subclass list.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

They're currently working on a revision of it to move a few champions around, and in that thread Rioters state they don't agree internally on what subclass Skarner should fall under. But Juggernaut is the best fit, seeing as how similar he is to Volibear, Olaf, and Udyr (Yes, Udyr is a Juggernaut).

One thing people often mistake is that Juggernauts need to be slow. On the contrary, quite a few of them move quickly. But they lack instant gapclosers to blink onto the target like a Diver or Assassin can.

Shahamut1 votes

Well, obviously I can't argue with, "this is what Riot says", but can disagree with your assessment of what a juggernaut is/Isn't and I think the fact that RIOT still doesn't agree is still evidence in my corner.

The scorpion is a hunter and a prey seeker. His dps isn't incredibly high, at all. He's a bit tankier which is his form of sustain, since he doesn't have any in his kit.

Variks the Loyal2 votes

The fantasy of a scorpion is that of an insectoid tank. Durable, ferocious, and destroying anything within reach of it's claws and venomous stinger. In real life, scorpions are shy, very much like Skarner and the brackern, preferring to retire underground undisturbed instead of conflict with others.

Skarner cannot be a skirmisher with his kit and thematics. He has too much CC and is too durable. Skarner wouldn't blow up if someone caught him out, like Fiora or Ekko would.

His gameplay fantasy was always fitting with that of a Juggernaut. He's tanky, kitable, and deals a lot of damage upclose such that he can outduel anybody. He has unique strengths that set him apart from other Juggernauts, like sustained damage and sticking power, and his ultimate would not be the only one to 'break the rules.' Riot said Shyvana gets to ignore the Juggernaut's main weakness for her ultimate, because it's an ultimate and it makes her unique. Olaf and Skarner's ultimates are similar; Olaf gets to ignore being kited, and Skarner gets to have lockdown that other Juggernauts aren't allowed to have.

Shahamut1 votes

I think he has too much c.c. and stickiness to be a juggernaut, not to mention his dps is nothing without sheen, and even with sheen it's not that high.

He's a lot closer to a really bad tank>>>warden than a juggernaut

Variks the Loyal2 votes

He doesn't have that much CC, and what CC he does have is single target.

He has the potential to stun multiple people in quick succession, but the odds of that happening are extremely slim and it's not at all reliable.

Skarner's damage was never such that he would be extremely high on the charts (Although he can be, just recently I had a fun game outdamaging a Lee Sin), but it was such that he was one of the best duelists. Very few people can 1v1 Skarner because he will simply outdamage them.

With Sheen, Skarner's damage is great. It's just that it's sustained and it's extremely short ranged, so he needs to stick onto people, which he can't always do. It also ramps up (The charge mechanic on his Q).

I've tested it out in practice tool. Skarner, full build, does more DPS than Darius if he can stick onto a target. But his damage is DPS, and not burst, which is the main difference.

Shahamut1 votes

The problem with your test is you are comparing sustained damage to burst. They do not compare. The fact of the matter is, Darius, if he 5 stacks you, will burst you will true damage faster than Skarner can dps you down. Not only that, because he killed you, he will now auto attack and ult your friend for more true damage.

If you are going to compare Skarner's damage to someone, it needs to be someone else who is a dps. How many other sustained damage juggernauts do we have? I guess you could try comparing him to Volibear, or Olaf to an extent. Although Olaf will be difficult as he gets more attack speed as he takes damage, which is a really tough variable to emulate. So I guess Volibear? Oh, wait, he has an execute bite attack... nevermind.

Variks the Loyal1 votes

My test is fine. There's a reason Skarner isn't considered as good as Darius, but that doesn't mean the sustained, sticky playstyle can't exist on Skarner, it just means he needs some changes.

Champions are different. Darius has his snowball dunking. Skarner has his sticking power and area control. Darius has true damage. Skarner has a suppress.

And all of this, of course, doesn't mean Skarner isn't a Juggernaut.

Shahamut1 votes

News flash, Skarner does not have area control, those rocks are contestable objectives, that are more or less worthless.

When they released it, they were WAY overtuned, hence Skarner saw LCS play for like, a weekend. :P

Those zones are not HIS control points. They are team objective control points. He holds no solo power over them.

And what makes Skarner "not a juggernaut" is EVERYTHING that RIOT has described a juggernaut to be.

Variks the Loyal1 votes

One nice change would be for Skarner to have solo power over them. IE, if he's in the radius, enemies cannot capture them.

Here is Riot's definition of 'Juggernaut':

"Juggernauts are melee titans who relentlessly march down the opposition and devastate those foolish enough to get within their grasp. They are the only subclass who excel at both dealing and taking significant amounts of damage, but in turn they have a tough time closing in on targets due to their low range and extremely limited mobility."

It sounds exactly like Skarner. He has no immediate gapclosers, relying on a slow-moving skillshot and a ramping MS boost to get close to enemies. He has extremely low range otherwise, where his woodchipper claws only effect a small radius around himself. He deals a lot of damage if he's allowed to continuously auto attack an enemy, and he's very durable.

He is very much a Juggernaut. He doesn't have the CC to be a tank, the mobility to be a Diver, or the sustain to be a Skirmisher. He's weakest when being kited, when he can't get within melee range of an enemy.

Shahamut1 votes

First things first: thank you for this conversation. I'm enjoying it :-)

I play a lot of Skarner, and I can tell you that Skarner does not have problems closing the gap and chasing people down. Even if you could argue that he does, I would like to also point out this iteration is the only Skarner that even remotely sounds close to that description. Every other version of Skarner was a speed demon.

The passive just needs to go. It has limited use, and is nothing but a skill less stat check. Either it's powerful and overbearing (how it started) or it's useless (how it is now). I have some top lane Skarner videos on YouTube. So far, I have bested a nunu, a Swain, and a Ryze. All should be able to kite me easily Right? I argue it's not that hard to close. But again, that is verse individuals. He can't bypass front lines, so not a diver. His low cool down shield is his sustain. Shields are a sudo-sustain for duelist who have no innate life steal or heals.

Variks the Loyal1 votes

Oh Skarner is still a speed demon, and always has been a speed demon. Juggernauts can be fast. Udyr, Olaf, and Volibear are fast. Shyvana, Trundle, and Garen are conditionally fast.

The thing about shields compared to other sustain, though, is that they're made stronger by health and resistances. Before, when Skarner's shield was for a flat amount instead of a portion of his health, pure resistance items like Frozen Heart and Wit's End were strong because they made his shield last as long as possible. Now it scales with health, and while I agree shields are an indirect form of sustain, it's not the same sort of sustain. Moreover, it's not conditional, and the defensive tools that Skirmishers have are all made to be conditional and rely more on player skill than their own strength(Yasuo wall blocks projectiles, Fiora parries CC, Tryndamere ignores death, Jax dodges autos, Yi channels a defensive steroid, etc).

I too play a lot of Skarner (Though in the jungle, since jungle is my preferred role), and I've got a few screenshots as well. One of my favorite is bursting a Xerath to about 30% health before he flashes and a Jinx rocket finishes him. The burst came from E stun + Sheen proc + Dead Man's proc + Q. Skarner's damage is great, it's reaching the extremely short range he needs to to deal that damage that is his main flaw at the moment, in my opinion. And that is in line with being a Juggernaut.

I do agree, though, that he needs another rework and a new passive. And I too am enjoying the convo :D

Shahamut1 votes

The difference between other "fast juggernauts" and Skarner though is his stickiness... if he didn't have the stun, I would be more inclined to agree with you. But Skarner is VERY difficult to escape from.

Olaf is similar but it's restricted to when he ult.

Shields are conditional sudo-sustain. You have to use it preemptively or it was worth nothing. For Skarner, it's also his movespeed boost, so his uses are a bit more forced. The shield still scales best with resist, since it scales off total and not just bonus health. Though obviously you want a combination of both.

Would you have considered previous versions of Skarner juggernauts as well?

EDIT Just looked through all the patch notes juggernaut and beyond. They have been reducing is speed and stickiness and damage. Lol.

Surely, this is evidence that Skarner wasn't a juggernaut prior to them attempting to make home one :-P

Variks the Loyal1 votes

Yes, that is a primary difference, because champions are different. Although I'd argue Udyr is just as sticky. Olaf is just as sticky even without his ult, if he continuously lands Undertow.

Also, yes, I would have always considered every iteration of Skarner a Juggernaut, because the primary counterplay is 'get out of melee range and kite him.' Skarner always did a large amount of damage and was always very durable, and the way you fight him was to not let him get close to you.

Shahamut1 votes

Jax is kind of sticky, more able, and melee. I could argue same

Variks the Loyal1 votes

Jax isn't as sticky or as fast, and his durability is locked behind a dodge mechanic (And a badly designed ultimate that will likely be changed when he gets VGU'd). Even with his defense mechanics, Jax isn't a tanky as a fully built Skarner.

Shahamut1 votes

Jax won't build as tanky as Skarner. And Skarner has to build tankier to win fights, because his damage is quite a bit lower than Jax. Jax isn't as fast, but has a stun that blocks damage and a gap closer. Pretty sticky if you ask me.

Fiora is also sticky as heck. She has built in sustain and a damage block/counter c.c. that slows or stuns. But like Jax, she will build more damage because she doesn't need as much to survive and deal her damage.

All three of them (Skarner, Jax, and Fiora) play pretty similarly overall. The mechanics are a little different, but they all stick on you and out duel you. They are all single target focused. Prior to the juggernaut changes, Skarner's move speed was high enough that he made a pretty good split pusher as well.

Variks the Loyal1 votes

I'm not going to deny that Jax and Fiora are sticky, because they are. But I'd argue that Skarner plays more similarly to Udyr or Volibear; large focus on AA's, on landing your (Largely single target) CC, on running down enemies and on being very tanky while dealing a lot of damage.

FEEDlNG TIME1 votes

tl;dr but he's a purple scorpion

Fed by Snu Snu1 votes

Skarner is a semi-tanky melee character whose function is to displace enemy champions closer to his own team with relative precision and provide minor forms of CC and sustained damage.

And that's it.

Terms like skirmisher, etc are retarded fancy words for Riot to be able to shift their argumentation depending on where and how they want to nerf/buff someone.

Shahamut1 votes

"Skarner is a melee league champion who does the stuff in his kit."

That's all I heard...

Fed by Snu Snu1 votes

{quoted}

"Skarner is a melee league champion who does the stuff in his kit."

That's all I heard...

And's that all there is to it. What he has in his kit.

Terms like skirmisher or bruiser are retarded, because the functionality of his kit is different from each game to another. For example he can also function as what Riot valls a "vanguard" (i think?) and peel for his carries with ultimate due to a very sticky target like Akali.

And that's why those terms are terrible, because they pigeon hole players into a specific mindset, as if all Skarner players are supposed to dive in, take someone out and that's the only way that they can win a game, because that's the fancy word that Riot assigned to them.

Pure nonsense.

mrgiraffeweevil1 votes

He feels like a juggernaut skirmisher hybrid. He doesn't scale into a hyper duelist like the ones you listed, but he still does damage. I think they should make him a tanky duelist. He should have sticking power, some tankyness, and some damage.

Shahamut1 votes

I'm pretty sure the only reason he feels like a juggernaut at all is because of his extreme loss of movement speed that came with the update.

mrgiraffeweevil1 votes

I just think he's always felt on the tanker side, so that's how people build him. It would make sense thematically, since a scorpion of that size would have a very tough exoskeleton.

Shahamut1 votes

He has, in fact, always been a little on the tankier side. More so after they removed the heal on his E.

The tankiness, combined with his shield, is his version of sustain as a fighter.

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