So why does he also get to do 60-70% of a squishys hp with zero AP items on base damages alone?
C9 Squeeky 2 votesThe 
changes in particular only made him stronger as well. They should make his Q have to hit 2 champions for the Spiderman sandwich instead of a unique enemy. Your own minions shouldn't be able to punish you like that.
fuffychan3 votesYeah I have to agree. Anything to at least improve his skillcap? His E cone range is takes up the entire screen and he can hold it for so long. Make the cone more narrow and like a slingshot so he cant sit there and wait for so long.
i cant move wtf2 votesI think that's a good way to nerf him. I'd go one step further and suggest it's made really narrow with no change in it's current range BUT change the animation so it doesn't indicate to the enemy team which direction he's charging up to shoot toward. That added deception would give him some wiggle room to stay as slippery/annoying as he is currently if the zac player's good but punish a zac that doesn't predict well.
fuffychan2 votesThat would be fine. I would even be fine if they buffed his travel speed on it as long as they make the cone much smaller. As it is now its idiotproof.
Another idea, maybe if he doesnt hit an enemy with it, he gets a "crash landing" and a 1 second self stun upon impact. Anything to increase his skillcap and punish him for missing.
Rewt2 votesjust make it so that you have to choose where you want to E to before you charge. You can cancel it for 75% mana refund and 75% cooldown refund.
C9 Squeeky 3 votes...what mana?
Durzaka1 votesSo his Q then becomes nearly useless for ganking mid and top.
Yeah, awesome change. That will sure feel good to use.
Also, Zac builds (and wins) more often with a stalkers blade rather than Trackers. So that really doesnt have anything to do with his strength.
C9 Squeeky 2 votesHis Q would still do damage like old Q, and old Zac was definitely playable before the rework, plus is now scales off Zac's max HP. He still has 2 forms of CC post 6; even pre 6 you really underestimate the power of his E. It's a long range aoe knock-up. Zac is still good for teamfights, just like the other 2 tank reworks.
Durzaka1 votesOld Zac had nearly twice the amount of damage post-6 compared to current Zac. So many people seem to forget that Zac's old ult would hit 3 times for the same amount of damage. Which was A LOT of his overall time.
His old Q also had a MUCH higher base damage, giving him more pressure during ganks (pressure he now gets with the CC on his Q), AND the slow lasted 4 times as long (2 seconds vs. 0.5 seconds now) AND it has significantly lower cooldown at low levels.
Don't pretend that Old Zac didnt pay for what current Zac now has. He may be overtuned, but saying to just play like before is ridiculous and not possible, because without the CC on his Q (and old damage from his ult) He is flat out worse in every aspect.
fuffychan1 voteswithout the CC on his Q (and old damage from his ult) He is flat out worse in every aspect.
Hey guys, if you take [insert good points here] away from X, they suck!
Wow, such wisdom!
Durzaka2 votes...
its almost like thats exactly what the person I responded to (AKA NOT YOU) was saying.
So what exactly is your fucking point?
C9 Squeeky 1 votesZac IS NOT supposed to 1-shot unless you put gold into damage. He shouldn't be an unkillable tank carry like Poppy was.
Durzaka1 votesok?
I never said he should.
But OP suggested removing CC from his ganks and just "play like you did before." Which would have been absolute trash because old Zac had less CC and more damage.
C9 Squeeky 1 voteseven "LS" said that if his Q did no damage, Zac would be 100% pick/ban as he is post-rework. It has nothing to do with the damage. Taking damage off Q would hurt his jungle clear but that's about it.
Durzaka1 votesYoure following the wrong chain buddy.
The original conversation i commented on was that he would need 2 champions to use the CC knock together on his Q. Not about taking away damage from it (which I think should probably be done, btw).
C9 Squeeky 1 votesOK then why you are complaining about his Q needing 2 champions if you agree he doesn't need the damage anyway? It's not a root/stun, it's a displacement which not only stops the enemy from running to safety, it puts him further away from it. You don't think Zac players should be punished if they miss their E? Because Q corrects that mistake and capitalize on it when the E does hit. You can't miss Q if E knocks them up. You act like Zac has no ganking power without reworked Q when his E is a powerful tool.
Durzaka1 votesYOU act like Zac didnt give up power from his old Q when he got the reworked Q.
His old Q was still a significant ganking tool as well, just not as much as reworked Q. So to say that Old Zac only had E to gank is stupid (but without the displacement for his current Q, that IS all he would have. E-R and then he just is kind of standing there. Which is the entire gameplay they were trying to REMOVE when they made the rework that seemed pointless).
Go back up if you want to see the kind of power his Q used to have. But it was still a very significant sticking tool and helped in ganks.
C9 Squeeky 1 votesNow you're flip-flopping your argument lol. Q is fine without the CC on minions.
Durzaka1 votesWhat? Im not changing my position at all, im simply repeating to you the exact same things Ive said.
Q without CC on minions in its current form might as well not be an ability at all.
Which means Zacs only ability to gank is E-R, and then stand around looking pretty doing some splash damage, exactly what they DONT want him to be played like. At least with old Q he was spamming it to keep up the slow, and create more engaging actions during ganks.
C9 Squeeky 1 votesPerhaps they should give the Q a slow then and sandwich if its 2 champs.
Durzaka1 votesBuff the slow drastically and maybe it would be reasonable.
Radiant Seraph1 voteslooks at Yasuo
LadyRenly2 votesbecause otherwise "adcs will just ignore zac"
yeah, just gonna ignore that 10 years of cc and displacement
fuffychan1 votesHe doesnt have "10 years" of cc and displacement.
Because youre already long dead.
Master Summoner1 votesidk i usually just have someone cc him and then i whale on em
fuffychan1 votesHey we have to waste our cc on a tank who will just revive and cc us again anyway!
Fun gameplay!
Meep Man1 votesI do believe he needs changes, but that's a hyperbole if I have ever seen one. You do realize it's stuff like this that made Zac get buffed to this point right?