Suggested Change to Critical Strike: Cement the Burst > Sustained > Tank > Burst Cycle

Meep Man·Oct 20, 2017·49 votes·2,132 views

Instead of having Critical Strikes deal double damage, what if they instead ignored a large portion of their target's armor? This way sustained DPS still betas Tanks, but can't counter-burst Assassins and targets meant to burst them since they have less armor to ignore. This would of course mean the current Armor Pen items would need to be reworked, but I think this would better balance ADCs to not just delete things come late game and actually be SUSTAINED damage that are made to melt the more durable targets, but be killed by the Assassins.

99 Comments

ModKnightsKemplarOct 20, 201717 votes

I've suggested this myself in several places. So far, no one has been able to talk me out of thinking this would work.

Most recent post where it came up was on a thread about "target agnosticism." The thread was about AD skirmishers, but the discussion immediately made me think of this topic again.

Totally agree, would like to see more discussion and traction on this one.

HalcyonDwellerOct 20, 20171 votes

That sounds like an interesting thread, do you mind posting a link so that I could check out the discussion?

ModKnightsKemplarOct 20, 20176 votes

Yeah, no problem. It's a decent read.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/hmaTRM6z-skirmishers-fiora-and-the-true-meaning-of-target-agnostic

HalcyonDwellerOct 20, 20172 votes

Thanks! That was very interesting and I'm glad I got the opportunity to see it :)

MelledoneusOct 20, 201720 votes

It even fits the theme of "critical strike."

You hit someone in a weak spot and they can't defend from it as well instead of it magically increasing your hitting power.

Velzard of KozOct 20, 20176 votes

And If the Armor ignored was percentage and would be stat on its own (instead of Critical Damage) it wouldn't mix up with Lethality and might actually need late-game to be more relevant.

FertsaOct 21, 20172 votes

And even for special case "Execute Crits" like Pantheon they can just change it to "Deals X% increased damage" without having to worry much.

I Main SwainOct 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I've suggested this myself in several places. So far, no one has been able to talk me out of thinking this would work.

Most recent post where it came up was on a thread about "target agnosticism." The thread was about AD skirmishers, but the discussion immediately made me think of this topic again.

Totally agree, would like to see more discussion and traction on this one.

i think it would work, but i dont think its the right way to do it. imo armor pen should stay as armor pen and they shouldnt add any more ways of ignoring armor without giving armor items a workaround or a big ol fat buff. my idea that i had was to make crit similar to lethality, where it increases your damage by a % based on your level. the one thing that all crit champions have in common is that they are meant to be most powerful late game with a more vulnerable early (unless you count pantheon but hes only sort of a crit champion), and this would definitely work with that really well.

ModKnightsKemplarOct 21, 20172 votes

That doesn't solve the issue of marksmen bursting other squishy champs. Lethality is even more effective against targets with low armor, so this would only exacerbate my main issue with carries.

I Main SwainOct 21, 20172 votes

{quoted}

That doesn't solve the issue of marksmen bursting other squishy champs. Lethality is even more effective against targets with low armor, so this would only exacerbate my main issue with carries.

good point. i just dont like having armor pen be too heavy a feature in the game. what if crit dealt %max hp physical dmg?

ModKnightsKemplarOct 21, 20171 votes

Now see, this is why I wanted this topic discussed further. I like that idea.

NineTailedMysticOct 21, 20172 votes

But that idea adversely affects squishies as well since they're not building Armor, so they might end up taking a higher % damage after mitigation.

ModKnightsKemplarOct 21, 20172 votes

Of course, and I did think of that.

Let me clarify by saying that getting this exactly fight while talking about it on the forums is not my goal. My goal is for us to spitball a bunch of good ideas and directions in case a Rioter stumbles in here, so they see what we think and potentially get some good ideas of their own from it.

thefanceOct 21, 20172 votes

Squishies' lack of armor implies that they'll receive higher damage from physical attacks no matter what. The point is that it will effect squishies less, relative to the current version of crit.

It's like complaining about a change from a flat tax to a progressive tax, because taxes inherently hurt the poor. It's not wrong, but your true disagreement lies upstream of where you're complaining about.

bleufromageOct 21, 20171 votes

So then kindred and vayne are op as hell

ModKnightsKemplarOct 21, 20172 votes

You can always re-balance champs around new systems. The current issue is that the crit system just doesn't work. It's not good for the game in the long term.

GigglesOOct 22, 20171 votes

lower their damage.

Linna ExcelOct 21, 20172 votes

My question is how do you make it so that tanks beat burst champs while losing to sustained damage?

ModKnightsKemplarOct 21, 20173 votes

I mean, tanks just cc the burst champs and don't get bursted.

I actually feel like tanks are decently resilient to burst right now.

Linna ExcelOct 21, 20171 votes

So what's the difference between a tank CCing a burst champ and a tank CCing a sustained damage champ? Are you suggesting that in a 1v1 a tank have enough damage to blow up a burst champ before the burst guy has a chance to get a second rotation off?

In a teamfight the rest of the team is likely to blow the CCed champ up either way so I'm a little less concerned about that.

flibitydooOct 21, 20172 votes

your first scenario is just unoptimal tank gameplay since you aren't supposed to be 1 v 1ing as a "tank" (the riot cc bot definition).

a juggernaut will of course crush burst; if leblanc is dumb enough to actually get in attack range of a garen will get silenced and chopped up (or at least near-killed while doing little of garen's 3-4k hp bar)

GigglesOOct 22, 20171 votes

idk why you got downvoted for that. Its true riot only cares about cc and damage.

MelledoneusOct 21, 20172 votes

Tanks survive the initial round of burst and can retaliate because the burst champion just blew all their power and cooldowns.

Against a sustained damage, the damage never stops until they are dead or forced to run. If you CC an ADC as a tank (assuming that you are what a tank should be and not Cho'Gath), then the ADC survives your measly damage and can lifesteal back up and shred the tank while their cooldowns buffer.

But the graph works better in teamfights.

Burst fears tank because it is a threat it cannot eliminate. Burst needs to be fast. Tanks stop the burst from happening. However, sustained can take their time: their damage is consistent and oftentimes even ramps up. Tanks take long to kill but they go down much easier with heavy fire from sustained damage. However, sustained damage is countered by burst, which can take out sustained before it can retaliate and deal enough damage to win.

Linna ExcelOct 21, 20171 votes

So you are basically arguing that in a 1v1, a tank should be able out-damage a burst champ.

MelledoneusOct 21, 20172 votes

It depends. Usually later on, no. But mid-game when burst declines a bit and tanks bulk up, they can be a threat.

But as I said before, the graph works better in teamfights and what you pointed out was one reason why.

GigglesOOct 22, 20171 votes

If a tank can't 1v1 a burst champion in the healthy rotation of burst>adc>tank>burst there is no reason to have it as a class.

MelledoneusOct 22, 20171 votes

Engaging, counter-engaging, locking down key targets, peeling, absorbing damage/CC, tanking objectives, etc.

If you can prove to me that any of the things that I listed are useless and there is no reason for "have tanks as a class," you win this argument. Otherwise, you should probably rescind your statement, my good friend.

NineTailedMysticOct 22, 20171 votes

If Tanks can 1v1 a burst class then they can 1v1 any other squishy class like Enchanters and ADCs and that's not what we want.

GigglesOOct 22, 20171 votes

item 3153 item 3812 item 3072 item 3139 exist for a reason. Also, in previous seasons tank items were actually attractive to pick up for other classes. If you want a solution lower damage, that way the game isn't so fast paced, which means that it isn't as snowbally.

NineTailedMysticOct 22, 20171 votes

Can't Lifesteal when you're CC'd.

GigglesOOct 22, 20171 votes

ha, what dreamworld are you living in? There are 4-5 "tank champions" that can absorb any type of damage. The rest are all just high damage champions that want to be tanks, but are not able to because they have outdated designs for "new league"

MuzétOct 21, 20172 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/fcaeynqG-focused-update-marksmen-itemization-and-crit-work

ModKnightsKemplarOct 21, 20171 votes

Yep. I find it very encouraging that many of us are independently coming to the same conclusion. I think there's some good ideas here; I actually like your take where crits still do a little extra damage but also ignore bonus armor.

MuzétOct 21, 20171 votes

Thanks. Don't hesitate to give me feedback on the topic and upvote it o/

Spank the FoxOct 21, 20171 votes

Because tank mains would throw a fit that "building armor, so worthless"

GigglesOOct 22, 20171 votes

Why would you build armor when its pretty much already useless. I abandoned even trying to put armor on tanks. I play full damage garen, mostly damage morde, and ect... its pretty garbage.

Spank the FoxOct 22, 20171 votes

Except there is a significant difference between having armor and no armor.

There seems to be an unrealistic expectation that full defense should equate to unkillable.

GigglesOOct 22, 20171 votes

Except that there isn't on a full crit last wisperor adc build. I've watched 6k chogaths with 400 armor die in 3-4 seconds.

Spank the FoxOct 22, 20171 votes

That doesn't happen.

A VoD will prove me wrong if it's just 1v1, but I'm not taking your anecdote since that mathmatically makes little sense.

GigglesOOct 22, 20171 votes

It probably is because you can still burst champions that build tank... So... yea...

TortungaOct 20, 20179 votes

Why would a tank not just stack health then, ignoring armour?

Meep ManOct 20, 20176 votes

We already have % health damage for that or increases in damage based on health, such as: item 3153 item 3036

I think it's healthy that there isn't more than 1 or 2 anti-X items.

TortungaOct 20, 20179 votes

That's not what i ment.

If i see the enemy ADC going for a crit build, why would I, as a tank, invest in armour at all (if there aren't any other attack damage carries on the enemy team). Armour would be pretty much useless, and especially the AA-armour items (thornmail, frozenheart) needs to get completely redeveloped.

And if the enemy is going for % health damage, they are clearly not going for crit (or delaying it for their last 2/3 items). Then you just go armour and be fine as well.

MelledoneusOct 20, 20172 votes

Well, crit isn't going to ignore a huge chunk of armor to make it irrelevant. Say, 20-40% per critical strike scaling off level to make it balanced (although LW would need to get looked at as a result).

In that case armor would be undermined a bit but HP would still back it up. Armor would still be effective.

ParoeOct 20, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Well, crit isn't going to ignore a huge chunk of armor to make it irrelevant. Say, 20-40% per critical strike scaling off level to make it balanced (although LW would need to get looked at as a result).

In that case armor would be undermined a bit but HP would still back it up. Armor would still be effective.

Also no matter how much armor it ignores ADCs will STILL be doing less. A marksman with 200AD will always be doing more than 200 damage to a tank with 200 armor with our current crit system.

But if crits ignored bonus armor, they will always be doing less than 200 damage, even at 100% bonus armor penetration. Marksmen would actually be doing DPS instead of BPS, be effective in team fights, and due to itemization will ALWAYS be relevant.

thefanceOct 21, 20171 votes

Armor and HP synergize. Unless armor is 100% ignored, there will always exist a non-zero ratio which represents the optimal allocation of gold between armor and HP.

The old Last Whisper applied penetration to both base-armor and bonus-armor. Which means that the optimal gold-allocation ratio did not depend on whether the ADC bought Last Whisper.

The new Last Whisper (and its upgrades) only apply penetration to bonus-armor. Which means the purchase of a Last Whisper will shift the tank's optimal ratio towards the HP side. But it won't make armor entirely irrelevant.

The Yetii RiderOct 20, 20174 votes

Wouldn't work. Tanks would just build raw health instead and carries wouldn't be able to kill them.

ProcellaOct 21, 20174 votes

This might seem like a weird idea.

But instead of AD, Crits and Armour Pen, why don't we lean into the attack speed element of ADCs and give them a variety of On-Hit effects, so that they can stack those instead. Of course they would have to be tuned to scale for late game, but I think leaning into attack speed and kiting might be a better idea/expression of skill for ADCs.

ParoeOct 20, 20173 votes

The problem with this is it makes armor a worthless stat then. And thats not even considering last whisper....Say a crit ignores 50% of bonus armor. You could reach 95% bonus armor penetration easily.

The only way this would be okay is if an item like gargoyle stoneplate gained "20% of bonus armor is granted as base armor instead".

thefanceOct 21, 20172 votes

This can be fixed by subjecting crit to diminishing returns. Just like tenacity.