@9.7 Garen changes: at this point, why even bother with the cap on his w?

Critmaster Garen·Mar 27, 2019·4 votes·1,887 views

Courage (W)

bonus armor & magic resist increased from .25 to .333

bonus max increased from 40 to 50

just partially remove the cap. let us have this please.

give it the ult treatment.

30 or 40 resistances stackable on minions, with the ability to earn either 1 or 0.5 armor and mr per takedown (kills + assists) against enemy champions, turrets and epic monsters, that dont count towards the cap.

give us the infinite stacking w pls.

8 Comments

True GarenMar 30, 20193 votes

Why even ask for it? How much resistances can you use? Much more significantly, they did let it stack faster. The value of the extra 10 isn't going to be all that noticeable.

Resistances have diminishing returns, unlike health. Why put any of his power budget into something that will be worth less and less?

I'll take normally scaling base health over this. Garen has 2k at lvl 18, and all others in his class have over 2200?

Since they shortened the total duration of the W, maybe give a little back with the %60 damage reduction counting for at least a full second. (I understand that the Tenacity component starts to get broken if they make it any bigger or longer.)

Garen probably doesn't need any more resistances. We're already skipping MR in many matches unless we really need mercs. DMP is important for Garen for other reasons and will still get built; the armor is a nice bonus. Now you have over 200 armor and 150 MR with Conditioning and shards (if the only extra resistance from items comes from DMP and mercs).

You'll be very lucky to stack 200hp on Overgrowth in a long match, even with the new buff. Unflinching is still better most of the time, I think.

I think that the new W buff is re-inforcing that Garen should be building items with health, mostly AD items. BC rush into DMP and Steraks. Warmogs may be better now. Frozen Mallet and Titanic Hydra also possibilities.

We didn't think that Garen needed extra resistances before. Nobody asked for this particular buff, but they gave it. The shorter CD and the faster stacking is much more significant.

I'll point out that subtly, this buff parallels the Shyvana buff, and I'll expect to see Olaf get something similar soon.

Critmaster GarenMar 30, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G3kv5Fll,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-30T04:09:40.325+0000)

Resistances have diminishing returns, unlike health. Why put any of his power budget into something that will be worth less and less?

thats not how resistances work. the ingame tooltip is kindof misleading in that regard.

each point of 1 resistance increases your health effectively by 1% against its damage type.

so when you have 1000 health and 100 armor, its effectively the same as having 2000 health and 0 armor against physical damage, which is displayed as 50% damage reduction (you increse your health pool by 100% against that damage type). if you have 200 armor, then its like you have 3000 health against physical damage, which is displayed as 66% damage reduction.

so each point of resistances youre buying is actually exactly worth the same. every point you have is an effective 1% increase to your health pool. it doesnt matter if you have 10 resistance, or 1000.

i dont think the buff theyre giving him is what he really needs, but in principle there are no diminishing returns to resistances. and since this is what they decided to buff in his kit, they might aswell just get rid of the cap at this point just so we can have a bit more fun in those rare 40+ minute games where hed be able to break past those 50 armor/mr.

the only thing you have to keep in mind when buying your items is, that there is kindof an optimal balance between health and resistance. more armor or more mr doesnt get worth less, but at some point, getting health would be worth more in terms of gold effectiveness.

for example lets say you have 1000 health and 500 armor. this means you have 6000 effective health against physical damage. at this point, buying another cloth armor (to 515 total) would increase your effective health pool to 6150. but buying a ruby crystal would multiply those 150 extra health by 6 due to all that armor you already have, and give you 6900 effective health against physical damage. you can see how getting health over more armor makes a huge difference at that point in terms what you get out of your gold.

% penetration also becomes a consideration, but just cuts the value of every resistance point you have down by a flat amount. item 3036 reduces that 1% effective health youre gaining against physical damage to 0.65%, but the concept remains the same, that resistances dont become worth less the more you have of them.

True GarenMar 30, 20193 votes

Assuming that Garen has 200 armor in a match with typical damage distribution, then how much health should he have? Will Garen reasonably acquire enough health in any match to justify extremely high resistances?

Critmaster GarenMar 30, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G3kv5Fll,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-03-30T18:02:09.005+0000)

Assuming that Garen has 200 armor in a match with typical damage distribution, then how much health should he have? Will Garen reasonably acquire enough health in any match to justify extremely high resistances?

like i said, there is no downside to having more resistances. at some point, spending your gold on health just becomes more valuable. but since were talking about a stack mechanic, youre not actually making a decision towards resists vs. health here.

for the same reason, its efficient for Chogath to stack large amounts of flat armor and mr from items like item 3110 and item 3193 . you just buy the biggest resistance items possible to scale up his gigantic health pool. chogath can easily reach 5000 up to even 7000 hp in a match off his r and some basic health items. this makes resistances insanely valuable on him.

as far as your question goes, its not a trivial thing to answer.

there is a very old thread, that explains it well.

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=805659

since the basic resistance mechanics didnt change since then, its still valid.

True GarenMar 30, 20192 votes

100 armor = %50 physical damage reduction; 200 = %67; 300 = %75; 400 = %80. Source - https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Armor (Unless I misunderstand it?)

The very high mmr Garen players that I speak to, have already, for a long time, prioritized buying health on Garen, trying to make every item give HP with a few exceptions (LDR, Youmou's when it's good, and now perhaps IE/ER).

It would be cool to have a synergy with Overgrowth and Garen W passive. Overgrowth is too weak for it to work.

I think that maybe somebody, somewhere, really did put some thought into this buff, and determined that, given the current state of this game, farming a finite, but generous amount of resistances, in a shorter time, was actually optimal. (Not only did they give Garen some extra resistance of arguable significance, but they increased the farm rate by ~1/3. Some perspective: Less than a year ago we only had 30 resistances. It was expected to take close to 20m to farm that. Well, in a really good game, Garen might occasionally farm to 30 resistances by 10m now. (Farming starts earlier now, etc.))

(And you know that I am super-cynical about these things, in general.)

Garen needs more base HP. Garen needs maybe a little more damage on his E. There are a lot of little things that could be done for Garen that would be so much more impactful. Let the healing passive interrupt be reduced with CDR. Let E apply on-hit effects a la Urgot (maybe to 1/3). I think that the W cap is a blessing-in-disguise. You want to hear complaints about Garen OP unlimited armor blah blah blah, when it wouldn't even be doing all that much? Give Garen back the %35 MS boost to Q.

The biggest benefits to Garen that I've seen in my (relatively short) time have come from 1. Game Meta shifts 2. Rune changes 3. Item changes. (And Runes shouldn't even matter that much!)

Critmaster GarenMar 30, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G3kv5Fll,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-03-30T17:59:11.447+0000)

100 armor = %50 physical damage reduction; 200 = %67; 300 = %75; 400 = %80. Source - https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Armor (Unless I misunderstand it?)

its just very deceptive how its displayed.

if you have 1000 health, 100 armor, you have 2000 effective health against physical damage. this is displayed as 50% damage reduction.

if you have 1000 health, 200 armor, you have 3000 effective health against physical damage. this is displayed as 66% damage reduction.

so your first 100 armor make it look like you get 50% increase while another 100 increase it by 16%.

but what youre really getting out of it, is always the same amount of effective health. its just really really weird and misleading how its displayed. there are no actual downsides to getting more resistances when you already have a lot of resistances. its just that health becomes more effective to a certain point as a multiplier when were talking about gold efficiency. after some amount of health that you have, resistances become worth more again.

hiyaresMar 30, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G3kv5Fll,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-03-27T21:59:32.277+0000)

just partially remove the cap. let us have this please.

give it the ult treatment.

30 or 40 resistances stackable on minions, with the ability to earn either 1 or 0.5 armor and mr per takedown (kills + assists) against enemy champions, turrets and epic monsters, that dont count towards the cap.

give us the infinite stacking w pls.

ummmmm your comparing a what 20-15 second w to a minute cd which techincally if in lane has a soft cap of 6 minionswhich you will spend the first 20 mins getting........ you wont get any other stacks until mid to late game and your talking major fights over most if not all of the stacks yo uwant....... it is an infinite scaling yea hsure but i mean your skil lalready gives you percent damage reduction................. thats liek me asking for cho e to do %health true damage because his ult isnt enough to kill at lvl reliably ...................

Critmaster GarenMar 30, 20191 votes

{quoted}

ummmmm your comparing a what 20-15 second w to a minute cd which techincally if in lane has a soft cap of 6 minionswhich you will spend the first 20 mins getting........ you wont get any other stacks until mid to late game and your talking major fights over most if not all of the stacks yo uwant....... it is an infinite scaling yea hsure but i mean your skil lalready gives you percent damage reduction................. thats liek me asking for cho e to do %health true damage because his ult isnt enough to kill at lvl reliably ...................

can you write in consistent sentences, so people can actually understand you? i only got about half what you wrote there, and it didnt make sense.

the parallel between my suggestion and chogath ult is, that in both cases there would be a base value that they could stack up on minions, to a certain cap, and a mechanic to stack past that base value with stacks that dont count towards it.

i hope that answers your questions. not that i know what you really asked here.