every juggernaut has been on a slow decline

Big Lincoln··27 votes·1,657 views

we can't keep up with the stupid amounts of CC being injected into the game and supports getting better heals and shields. ADCs spiking faster and getting more range and self-peel isn't helping us, either, because now just getting past their team isn't enough, some of them can stand on us in melee and outduel, or they can fuck up and still save themselves with their mobility/hard CC

every jugg even Darius has been slowly tapering off in winrate. most of them have been awful for a while but the good ones are starting to feel the aftermath of the tank update (nerfs to them for the most part). there's 0 point in playing one beyond personally enjoying them; a tank is a much stronger pick in nearly every situation, because the new tanks have absurd amounts of crowd control while still having enough damage to threaten squishies and bruisers. the value of a juggernaut in any team comp will continue to lower until the range discrepancy and CC creep get addressed, or juggernauts get direct changes to be able to combat both in order to keep up with the pace and direction of league

i don't think all of them need immediate buffs but since we're looking at some of the bottom of the barrel Trundle Garen to be improved, maybe you could do the same for the others who are doing especially poorly Udyr Volibear Nasus, and an eye should be kept on the rest

ty riot

53 Comments

Malicious Metal17 votes

You know there's a problem with Juggernauts.

When Mordekaiser is the only one with a good win rate....

Building PURE AP.

Ralanr1 votes

Can you even build Mordekaiser tanky?

Big Lincoln3 votes

ya

item 3742 item 3001 / item 3065 and most of the health+AP items work decently on him

i actually prefer a tankier mord myself but i don't like playing his current kit as is

Malicious Metal6 votes

His shield scales off Max hp and so does his E.

Riot actually intended him to build Rylais, Gunblade into full tank. They wanted him to be a DPS powerhouse but he's just the same ol' burst mage.

Nechronia5 votes

DPS with zero sticking power >_>

50000000000000001 votes

His ult is a 15 second slow with Rylai's : ^)

SSShutTheDuckUp3 votes

You can build everything tanky

Ashe item 3075

Big Lincoln1 votes

i think mord, yorick, darius are doing pretty okay. Illaoi had a brief w/r spike but she's back under 50% like she's been for most her existence and I'm sure she'll decline more

and the rest are just trash and have been for a while, i'm pretty bummed about playing league lately

Troll for Trump1 votes

Juggernauts also have the "top lane syndrome." Top lane is just unimpactful because they can't influence any other lanes.

So what you see picked more are the "teamwork" champs. Galio, Shen, and GP have global ults (Pantheon fits into this, I guess?)

Then you have the ones that don't really care about their team: the skirmishers (Fiora and Yasuo).

The two polar types of playstyles (Ones that only care about their team and not their own well-being, and ones that care only about themselves and not others) are generally better than the "all-arounders" who tend to do a more mediocre job of both.

Hexs Fortune8 votes

CC counters mobility, mobility counters Juggernauts. [slayer-pantheon-popcorn] J/K cc counters everything, and the only hard counter to mobility is more mobility... or "grounding" which rito is afraid to put on anything

Big Lincoln4 votes

I hate CC more than I hate mobility

I can build glory on some juggs to prevent mobile kiting. tenacity does fuck all anymore so I can't step into a fight without being locked down by the tank or support by themselves

MunchCrunchLunch3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hexs Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G0Wo0w9V,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-06-12T19:42:24.484+0000)

CC counters mobility, mobility counters Juggernauts. [slayer-pantheon-popcorn] J/K cc counters everything, and the only hard counter to mobility is more mobility... or "grounding" which rito is afraid to put on anything

pretty sure cc counters melee way more than ranged. if you're away. its easier to dodge and you have time before you get engaged on eventually.

oh look am jax. I can't fight because thresh hook has a 180 degree hitbox in melee range and a flay.

Big Lincoln6 votes

game has gotten worse for melees for ages now

look at how ridiculous melee carries need to be just to be viable now Fiora Yasuo Gangplank . we're probably never going to see jax again until he's reworked

of course none of that matters because riot compensates ADCs by making them stronger too

Xevestos4 votes

Jax with 10% pickrate and nearly 51% winrste is pretty good if u ask me, my favorite freelo pick atm.

Critmaster Garen6 votes

i felt like i was forced to drop garen weeks ago with the tank update if i want to have chances to advance.

kindof swapped over more to yorick, since the rift herald change allow him to pull off crazy cheese turret pushes. but even he felt weaker and weaker over the past couple patches, especially since his main counters are some of the more popular top lane picks.

hes pretty good against darius and other juggs, but cant deal with ranged carries or mobile melee carries like fiora very well.

ProfDrDeath4 votes

Shouldn't item 3800 be better for Juggs come the next patch?

Big Lincoln5 votes

i thought so too but it now activates automatically when you get close to someone, meaning a tank just has to stand in front of you to stop your advance when before they at least needed to throw a CC your way

it'll only be good for catching a lone enemy out or if you give up your front line presence to flank

Ralanr1 votes

Wait it's going to activate automatically?

So it's going to activate whenever I walk into lane?!

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

Wait it's going to activate automatically?

So it's going to activate whenever I walk into lane?!

no, you hit the active for the movement speed boost towards enemy champions, like now.

what they changed is, they removed the second activation. instead of deciding yourself when you want to trade the ms boost for the aoe slow, you basically stop and fire it automatically as soon as youre in range of someone.

Big Lincoln7 votes

the slow pops as soon as you get in range of someone, meaning it'll stop at the first enemy you touch

i don't know who would actually find this item desirable when they can't even decide when to use the slow

Ralanr4 votes

That is really, really dumb. I know I don't like actives on items, but something like that should be more in the control of the player.

Big Lincoln1 votes

im pretty sure it only happened to nerf it for olaf but it's going to be really crappy for most champs, now

unless, i guess, it's another tank who wants to use their aoe slow on a single front liner.

Critmaster Garen6 votes

{quoted}

Shouldn't item 3800 be better for Juggs come the next patch?

id call it a nerf tbh.

its losing 100 health and gains some armor and cdr. considering all the item changes with the tank update, big health items are rare, and more attractive than before the changes. at best its a neutral trade of stats.

but the really bad part is the automatic trigger of the slow.

with the current item 3800 you can swoop in between multiple opponents and then hit the active to hit them all with the aoe effect.

this is a really strong situational tool for champions like Darius

with the automatic trigger of the slow aura, you basically stop at the first guy you get in range of and dont have the option to fire it a second or two later to get the most effect out of the aoe slow.

AirKingNeo2 votes

Nope, it's actually getting nerfed.

Penns4 votes

Every Nasus I see curries de game tho

op

Big Lincoln4 votes

that's just cos you're euw lul

Penns9 votes

But euw > na tbh hehe xd

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

No. Euw >>>>> Na*[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]*

FalconPawwwwnch4 votes

they won't buff juggernauts as a class because darius is still decent

Even though the rest are trash the fact that even one is playable means they wont look at the class as a whole

Erockandroll2 votes

{quoted}

they won't buff juggernauts as a class because darius is still decent

Even though the rest are trash the fact that even one is playable means they wont look at the class as a whole

Really the problem comes down to the fact that they rely on stats.

Any Ranged champ has some skill expression in terms of their positioning. But for melee champs, it's pretty much either in range, or out of range. Divers make up for this some what with their mobility. (depending on the ability, it could have the merits of a skill shot) But Juggernauts rely more on MS boosts, which gives a lot less skill expression in the kiting game.

They're Melee, they're Immobile, so if you compensate for it with better dueling power, you put them under a knifes edge between "OMG so OP no Counterplay" and "Completely useless." The only two exceptions I see to that level of skill expression comes mainly from Mundo and Olaf, mainly that their chase potential could be reliant on their ability to land a skill shot. (their Qs) Though Mundo isn't a good option, since he's ridiculously hard countered by GW.

Critmaster Garen6 votes

{quoted}

Really the problem comes down to the fact that they rely on stats.

Any Ranged champ has some skill expression in terms of their positioning. But for melee champs, it's pretty much either in range, or out of range. Divers make up for this some what with their mobility. (depending on the ability, it could have the merits of a skill shot) But Juggernauts rely more on MS boosts, which gives a lot less skill expression in the kiting game.

They're Melee, they're Immobile, so if you compensate for it with better dueling power, you put them under a knifes edge between "OMG so OP no Counterplay" and "Completely useless." The only two exceptions I see to that level of skill expression comes mainly from Mundo and Olaf, mainly that their chase potential could be reliant on their ability to land a skill shot. (their Qs) Though Mundo isn't a good option, since he's ridiculously hard countered by GW.

there are other juggs with decent skill expression in their kits. Darius mainly positioning when it comes to his q, and his pull Yorick his w, his e, use of power windows with his ghouls. Illaoi animation cancelling and positioning around her tentacles. next to hitting a good pull of course.

on the other hand there are plain stat check adc like Vayne KogMaw Twitch

a larger auto attack range doesnt guarantee a high skill cap. csing and positioning in fights can be easier whith more freedom of position while being effective.

Varnoc2 votes

Illaoi can't anim cancel her E anymore, Riot yanked that (and for good reason imo, still sucks tho). So unless I'm missing another anim cancel she has, I don't think she can do that anymore

Troll for Trump1 votes

She has one with QW

Troll for Trump1 votes

She has one with QW that's really important for laning

Troll for Trump1 votes

But Juggernauts rely more on MS boosts, which gives a lot less skill expression in the kiting game.

Doesn't that make juggernauts harder to play as?

Rather that have flashy kits, juggernauts tend to use longer duration increased movement speed. So, they need to weave around spells, rather than just blinking into fights.

This fits with their theme, because they're supposed to be sustained fighters and not bursters.

tl;dr

Divers =flashy, blinky, dashy, and more dmg in short periods of time

Juggernauts = ms boost for chasing and longer sustained fights

Big Lincoln3 votes

probably true, sadly enough

very frustrating for someone who plays juggernauts almost exclusively though

Wafflessssss1 votes

I got mad about adc's the other day and tried to play fiora. I can't do it. So I guess I'll just be trying to make Illaoi and Darius work until riot makes defensive items mean something again. I already had to just drop nasus which I've been maining since season 4. Feels bad man.

Arakadia4 votes

Lifesteal needs tuning, team fights need to last lower, and we need less CC in everything like you said. It's actually insane how many displacements have been added on the littlest things. I don't think support shields are that out of line, and if they are the Redemption and Locket changes will help a lot.

Big Lincoln2 votes

supports are def a problem for juggs

between their own innate healing/cc potential and cancer like lulu/karma who can kite you and then also cc you if you manage to outplay that kiting, and items like ardent/athene making it obnoxiously easy for adcs to draintank you in melee range (not to mention redemption's bs ), it doesn't really matter how well you play, adc + support is a loss for a juggernaut

AirKingNeo3 votes

Problem with juggernauts and fighters is they're just powercreeped out of the game.

Maw can't stack with Sterak's to give meaningful defense-offense for them. Sterak's gets worse with the more items you buy because it becomes harder to proc. ADCs damage is too multiplying now that they have access to CDR (hence why Tristana kinda sucks right now) and only overtunned ADCs (or items) who aren't CDR based survive.

Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votes

I think the biggest reasoning is that most of the Juggernauts need some kind of update. Garen and Volibear are really showing their age. Volibear especially. For these champs to be fully viable would probably mean a lot of other balance issues.

Udyr recently got buffed, which hopefully means Riot will be paying him more attention. Even then tho his kit could see adjustments.

As for Trundle and Nasus, they could definitely go from some buffs.

In the same breathe tho Illaoi Yorick Mordekaiser and Darius all seem pretty balanced right now.

Honestly Juggernauts just seem to be A LOT more match-up and team comp based then other classes, and I think that's where their true problem lies.

Big Lincoln2 votes

i would very much like a voli rework. a small update on par with aatrox/shyv would be excellent until he can be locked down for a full relaunch

udyr is complete garbo and i don't understand why riot would leave him in such a sorry state even after reworking him. but I've been working on a rework for him and voli, hope to put his up soon

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

Funny... like this fcking boards cry when riot try to lower tank damage. But i completly agree with u, not on jugger... cause i don't care of them (fck them). But Tank are an issue :

  • Galio : all pro of a tank with a good depush (with no downside)
  • Shen a tank... but not only, he's a lane bully with a global

And the scaling of adc is stupid too. As a Diver main, i feel like its close as useless to build armor even after item 3142 item 3071 cause ill be melted either way against carry

Big Lincoln1 votes

bro i dont even what you're saying in this post

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

I mean what's f*cked jugger :

  • is the "up/rework" of tank giving them to much strengh (Shen, Galio). I mean by their nature tanks are more useful once laning phase is over. Juggernaut are usualy good in lane and in splittpush. The downside of tanks should be depush, damage, laning...

  • And adc... Adc are scale too quickly compared to previous patchs.

BabyNaix1 votes

I would disagree about darius. He is banned in most of my games and still dominate almost all top lanners.

Seenan1 votes

Yeah, Juggernauts tend to be among my fave champs to competitively pick toplane, as well as working well.

Just imo, but they needa give Darius a lesser form of his old movement speed% back, per stack. And his ult takes forever to cast, which has killed me on more than one occasion. Garen maybe needs knockback immunity during Q (not cc, just knockback, and maybe knockup too).

As for Trundle, Nasus, Voli, Udyr, that's up to people who play them since I don't.

Variks the Loyal1 votes

The jungle needs to be made more friendly for Juggernauts.

Volibear Skarner Trundle Olaf all when built in the jungle, end up needing to build full tank off of Cinderhulk, neutering one of their supposed strengths (High, close range damage), or slowing their build to a crawl because of low gold gain. Only Juggernaut Jungler that might be decent is Shyvana, but my knowledge of her comes mostly from fighting people who main her.

There needs to be a more appropriate jungling item for Juggernauts. Warrior makes them too squishy, and Cinderhulk makes them deal too little damage.

Big Lincoln1 votes

i don't think trundle or voli are particularly bad in terms of jungle itemization. Voli will always go for cinderhulk because he has no AD ratios in his abilities, but Trundle has surprisingly decent flexibility between 3 of the items and can adjust his build as needed

i've always hated jungle-exclusive items though

Variks the Loyal1 votes

I think jungle-exclusive items are fine as weaker versions of existing items - ala, Cinderhulk is a weaker Sunfire, etc. The tradeoff for being weaker is that they make the champion a better jungler.

One for Juggernauts would be awesome. I have a feeling if they rework Voli, they're gonna add things like AD scaling and such, since damage scaling with durability isn't typically a good design.

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