I think Shyvana needs more buffs...

Monstermushmush·Jan 18, 2019·5 votes·7,522 views

1/15 PBE Update: More Tentative Balance Changes

Flame Breath (E) basic attack damage increased from [2.5% of target's max health] to [3.25% of target's max health]

I think she's too squishy.

27 Comments

ProfirixJan 18, 20193 votes

No CC, no sustain, no defense steroids. Either the season she came out was so bland that this kind of champion could exist, or I have no idea what her designer was thinking. You can't be a melee bruiser without at least one of these 3 things and be considered viable without being overpowered.

@AIQ calling @AIQ to the Shyvana thread, @AIQ to the Shyvana thread.

Chembaron YamadaJan 18, 20191 votes

Technically, she has all 3 of these.

Hard CC on ult (dragging enemies she dashes through with her), additional health on ult which she gets to keep after the transformation ended, making it basically a heal, and her passive is a defensive steroid (even if it is a situational one, since she needs to snack dragons for it).

I know, having this stuff locked behind her ultimate doesn't make it as practical as when she had it on basic abilities like other bruisers, but she actually has this stuff. Just not frequent enough.

ProfirixJan 18, 20191 votes

Fair point, but you are right, it isn't available enough when it is necessary. Also calling her 'knockback' a form of hard CC is really pushing it. You don't even drag them the entire distance and it doesn't last for any discernable amount of time. I feel like she should be able to 'abduct' her first target she hits with her ult, carrying them the full distance and then maybe slowing them at the end briefly.

Daddy AntsJan 18, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ridley Me This,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FwV9thcW,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-18T19:12:42.033+0000)

No CC, no sustain, no defense steroids. Either the season she came out was so bland that this kind of champion could exist, or I have no idea what her designer was thinking. You can't be a melee bruiser without at least one of these 3 things and be considered viable without being overpowered.

@AIQ calling @AIQ to the Shyvana thread, @AIQ to the Shyvana thread.

With the amount of damage she does, she should be squishy.

ProfirixJan 18, 20191 votes

Squishy melee range bruiser with absolutely no defensive power in her main kit? All I'm hearing is AP Shyvana where you just sling dragon fireballs from a distance and one-shot squishies.

It isn't satisfying.

If her damage is too high, then it can get nerfed. But she MUST have tankiness somewhere in order to contend with the damage in today's meta.

Sire HippingtonJan 19, 20194 votes

When she was released, she had better defense compared to the current passive, and def stats actually made you tanky. But mostly, itemisation was better for getting beefy with ~1300hp from old warmongs and lots of regen, so you didn't really need that much defense and sustain in your kit as tank items actually did something. And her damage in comparesion was high enough to work with near fulltank gear.

Now her passive is shit, and even if it was her old one, 60armor/mr just don't feel like much of a difference these days, the rest powercrept past her so she no longer is top tier in base damage, no because she lost damage but because everyone else does more now, and the biggest issue is that defens is so usless that she can't cover her inate lack of sustain or strong defense steroids through items, resulting in her dieing befor makeing use off her sustained dps potential.

xDogMeatxJan 18, 20191 votes

actually her style of play is this she gets more "theory stat" gold per dragon kill so she doesnt have to buy defense items as much as other divers/ fighters. it rewards more aggressive objective taking.

ProfirixJan 18, 20191 votes

If it was more than 5 mr/armor I would agree with you. But everyone seems to forget that dragons are contestable and your 'theory stat' is based on whether your team (or theirs) is any good and not necessarily based on your own personal skill (which is a big issue).

xDogMeatxJan 18, 20191 votes

well its a team dependant passive not a solo queue one unless you hard one trick her. thats not adding in already bonus damage to dragons thats free power budget right there that could be why its 5 armor/mr. do you want a EZ game? maybe though we could boost her 5 armor/mr to 8 per dragon kill. thats how i see it wont be hard broke due to damage creep.

ProfirixJan 18, 20194 votes

The issue with her passive is that when you get the best benefits from it, you are already on track to win the game anyway. When you really need the passive the most (i.e. your team is losing) you suffer because you can't take dragons. It is something that is largely out of your control.

xDogMeatxJan 18, 20191 votes

well if they comeback you at least have the bonus stats to go on at least to hinder that comeback. her passive is to keep you in the lead not comeback from behind thats either nasus's or veigars job.

ProfirixJan 18, 20191 votes

I have to disagree with this. She is a front-line melee brawler who excels at bashing people in the face. What good is it if you aren't tanky enough to do your intended job?

xDogMeatxJan 18, 20191 votes

then build more brawler type items she isnt a brainless if i dive in im auto getting a penta type champ

ProfirixJan 18, 20191 votes

You are missing the point. Her passive is effectively 5 mr/armor. That's it. Anything else is between you, your team, and the enemy team. Depending on skill level difference, that can be up to 30 mr/armor or just 5. Even at the best case scenario, 30 armor/mr is an aegis. Not exactly something worth focusing dragons all game over.

xDogMeatxJan 18, 20191 votes

if you get infernals/ winds your telling me 30 armor isnt worth the trouble now if mountain/water was involved i would understand.

ProfirixJan 18, 20191 votes

It isn't worth potentially losing every dragon because the enemy team can group and focus objectives better than yours. What you gain from it on a PERSONAL level (Shyvana alone) isn't worth the struggle of either sneaking the first one, or grouping to kill the rest. If the enemy team is any good, they will be ready for Shyvana to try to take dragon.

Shyvana can take dragon at level 4 or 5 depending on her rune setup and health. If ANYONE comes by pit for any reason or it is warded, she will die. Even a Janna can sit there and auto Shyvana and win if she is caught fighting the first dragon. All it takes is an early ward, map awareness, and timing awareness. Any dragon Shyvana and her team engage after that is wholly dependent on back timers, death timers, and shotcalling. I have played plenty of games where the enemy team had a Shyvana and I just kept dragon warded the whole game. We played smart, didn't fight bad fights, and were able to easily deny her any benefits to her passive. She can't duel most junglers and win until level 6. And even then, all she gets in dragon form is a tiny bit of health and extra damage on her E.

Don't get me started on the proposed jungle experience changes. That's just going to make things even worse for powerfarmers.

xDogMeatxJan 18, 20191 votes

i hate jungle nerfs just saying it makes jungle less fun. 2ndly all i can say its a team dependent type champ run conditioning if you want to boost it further.

MonstermushmushJan 19, 20192 votes

{quoted}

actually her style of play is this she gets more "theory stat" gold per dragon kill so she doesnt have to buy defense items as much as other divers/ fighters. it rewards more aggressive objective taking.

It's literally 5 MR and armor. That really isn't much.

xDogMeatxJan 20, 20191 votes

how would you scrap it to compensate her then.

PhearBunnyJan 18, 20191 votes

More buffs? a Shyvana with 66AP just hit me for 736 with 1 button, while I had a Leona W active, so I don't wanna hear it.

MonstermushmushJan 19, 20192 votes

{quoted}

More buffs? a Shyvana with 66AP just hit me for 736 with 1 button, while I had a Leona W active, so I don't wanna hear it.

Any fed AP champ can 1 shot you. AP shyvana has more counterplay than those champs tho.

PhearBunnyJan 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Any fed AP champ can 1 shot you. AP shyvana has more counterplay than those champs tho.

On what planet is 66AP = Fed?? Im genuinely curious.

ParoeJan 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

On what planet is 66AP = Fed?? Im genuinely curious.

I dont... Can you give me a link to the game youre talking about? Because if they were hybrid i could understand maybe, but JUST 66AP? There was something else going on for sure. Unless you stood in the burning ground. THe burning ground hurts.

FSRERJan 19, 20191 votes

And with this you will see even more ap shyvanas with lich bane .

ProfirixJan 19, 20191 votes

The fact that AP Shyvana can work is kinda cool, but I don't want it at the expense of bruiser Shyvana.

ParoeJan 19, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ridley Me This,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FwV9thcW,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-01-19T20:05:27.762+0000)

The fact that AP Shyvana can work is kinda cool, but I don't want it at the expense of bruiser Shyvana.

To be fair, her AP variant is... honestly pretty healthy. Id love for Shyvana to be able to 'dragonize' an ability for her passive so that it did the dragon version all the time. Would be a lot more fun than her current ball of stats, which should just a passive component on her ultimate like olafs is anyway.

TusutakiJan 19, 20191 votes

Wow again a whole bunch of nothing! Why not at the very least nerf her E's AP ratio and move it's power to Q as it's by far the weakest skill in the game. As a reminder, originally her lvl1 Q was...

80%AD then
40%AD now
20%AD

Now some might say its purely for onhit effects and because of Press the Attack, however while it may be a decent rune on her, it is not the end all be all. What if she's needs to shred tanks better with Conq or better sustain with like Grasp? Thats just with her Q mind you. She's also been hit very hard on her W making her clearspeed even slower. The butcher of her passive is obvious.

As of now, she it literally a worse version of Vi in every single way. If they want to make her actually relevant with simple buffs then I think they should make her attacks on marked enemies from Flame Breath heal her for the amount dealt. Or at least some form of sustain from hitting marked enemies.

============================OH AND THIS IS IMPORTANT====================

Her main core item for the jungle, item 1416 Bloodrazor item 1419 , it's passive %hp dmg, does not apply lifesteal. I always thought this was extremely dumb and unreasonable and is one of the major factors that is not only holding Shyvana back but other champs like Kindred as well.