Ghostblade, Cleaver and Last Whisper

Critmaster Garen··2 votes·428 views

the 3 big armor pen items in this game that are supposed to be interchangable depending on the champion youre playing, and the teamcomp youre facing.

  • item 3142 flat armor penetration is supposed to serve as a damage multiplier for assassins against squishy targets.

  • item 3071 is designed as a bruiser item to give them team synergy and reliable damage in extended fights with the armor shred passive against high armored targets/teams.

  • item 3035 is a cheap item with frontloaded % armor pen, also against high armored opponents, mostly targeted at adc

so my question is, if these items are supposed to be interchangable and situational, why are they still stackable on the same champion?

item 3156 and item 3053 were changed to give them the same name passive. what is the holdup for doing the same with the 3 big armor pen items?

"korean builds" with item 3071 item 3142 item 3147 running rampant could have been avoidable to a certain degree if the amount of stackable armor pen would be more limited.

its obvious that these items are individually not the problem, but only when stacked in one build.

giving these items the same name passive wouldnt even limit them to certain classes or champions. you could still build a item 3071 on MissFortune Lucian or you could build a item 3142 on fighters against very squishy teams.

but it would get rid of these extreme edge cases of single champions stacking too much armor pen to make the stat almost worthless even on tanks.

for item 3071 this would simply mean someone who has one of the other two items in his inventory cant apply cleaver stacks himself. he would still benefit from it if the item was on another teammate though.

14 Comments

ZephyrDrake1 votes

since when are they "interchangeable" and "situational"?

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

since when are they "interchangeable" and "situational"?

they arent, but theyre intended to.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FsIhefkW,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-08-06T11:31:06.251+0000)

they arent, but theyre intended to.

no they're not, they have never been "interchangeable" nor "situational"

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

no they're not, they have never been "interchangeable" nor "situational"

the nature of their scaling already makes them situational.

but at the start of the season, ghostblade has been specifically reworked to an assassin item, since flat penetration is most effective against champions who dont stack a lot of armor in the first place.

cleaver has always been targeted at bruisers.

last whisper more at adc.

this may not be an entirely strict rule, and some assassins and adc like to get cleaver in certain situations. while fighters grab ghostblade occationally.

but either way, the amount of stackable armor penetration with the introduction of item 3147 and addition of armor pen on item 3156 has proven to be an issue. hence you have cases like Lucian MissFortune Jhin running around, stacking item 3142 item 3156 item 3147 with either item 3071 or item 3035 items.

the most effective way to kill high armor pen builds would be to make the 3 biggest armor pen items not stackable anymore.

for item 3071 this would mean that people who buy the other armor pen items can still benefit from the shred, IF the cleaver is on a different champion.

Siyther1 votes

of course if u made them unstackable then tanks would run rampant in leagfue worse than the cinderhulk meta ever dreamed.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

of course if u made them unstackable then tanks would run rampant in leagfue worse than the cinderhulk meta ever dreamed.

no they wouldnt. we would just go back to pre season 6 state. there are enough sources of armor pen in general in the game, and the main difference would be that youd have to bring a champion who can utilize item 3071 properly against heavy armor stackign teams/champions.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

{quoted}

no they're not, they have never been "interchangeable" nor "situational"

you havent seen the ashe build of item 3085 item 3071 item 3072 item 3812 item 3053 /item 3156 or item 3153 item 3142 item 3046 item 3508 item 3036 , then there is item 3031 item 3153 item 3036 item 3085 item 3147 i mean hell one would say you could interchange any of the armor pen items into any build.

PermabannedGaren1 votes

"Waaaaaaaaaaaaaah I want Garen to be tankier waaaaaaaaaaaaah".

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

"Waaaaaaaaaaaaaah I want Garen to be tankier waaaaaaaaaaaaah".

i think you logged into the wrong account. isnt the other one where you do shitposts and this one where youre agreeing with yourself?

PermabannedGaren1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FsIhefkW,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-08-06T16:47:39.362+0000)

i think you logged into the wrong account. isnt the other one where you do shitposts and this one where youre agreeing with yourself?

I'd like to see you find a single post where PermabannedGaren agreed with Memeglaive Garen. It would be pretty hard to coordinate those two accounts together to agree with one another, considering the reason I made this account is that Memeglaive was banned from the boards.

Oh, and I'm not shitposting. I'm just letting everyone know the root of why you're saying this. Your bruiser agenda is pretty transparent.

Which reminds me. You are aware how many fighters and assassins would be fucked over by your stupid idea, right? Both Zed and Talon build duskblade, youmuu's, and black cleaver most games. Wukong builds the latter two often. Tryndamere often runs youmuu's plus last whisper. I've seen quite a few high elo players run Black Cleaver plus youmuu's on Darius. Funnily enough, you'd be screwing over way more melee champions with your suggestion, just so two marksmen couldn't stack these items, with only one of which (Jhin) actually being a problem. Where's the sense in that?

Also, these builds scale worse than the standard ADC crit builds. MF's Korean build is worse at killing tanks than an ADC crit build. Same with Jhin. It's their early to mid game power that make them strong.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

I'd like to see you find a single post where PermabannedGaren agreed with Memeglaive Garen. It would be pretty hard to coordinate those two accounts together to agree with one another, considering the reason I made this account is that Memeglaive was banned from the boards.

Oh, and I'm not shitposting. I'm just letting everyone know the root of why you're saying this. Your bruiser agenda is pretty transparent.

Which reminds me. You are aware how many fighters and assassins would be fucked over by your stupid idea, right? Both Zed and Talon build duskblade, youmuu's, and black cleaver most games. Wukong builds the latter two often. Tryndamere often runs youmuu's plus last whisper. I've seen quite a few high elo players run Black Cleaver plus youmuu's. Funnily enough, you'd be screwing over way more melee champions with your suggestion, just so two marksmen couldn't stack these items, with only one of which (Jhin) actually being a problem. Where's the sense in that?

Also, these builds scale worse than the standard ADC crit builds. MF's Korean build is worse at killing tanks than an ADC crit build. Same with Jhin. It's their early to mid game power that make them strong.

lol. if you have a better idea then im all ears. the reasoning behind this is simply that there is so much more stackable armor penetration available than in previous seasons due to the maw changes and duskblade introduction.

there is a large problem with certain champions stacking every single armor pen item available and making armor as a stat generally shitty and shred even through tanks in seconds.

assassins should focus on taking down squishies, and for that purpose they usually dont need cleaver. its supposed to be more of a secondary item for them, and in case of heavy armor stacking teams it can replace ghostblade in their builds.

they may have been more reliant on it previously, but since duskblades introduction they have their own pen itemization. item 3142 item 3147 item 3156

if this really hits them too hard and they cant take down squishies on those items anymore than id prefer a direct buff to those assassins over keeping 70 flat armor pen plus cleaver or last whisper as a possibility in the game.

we can see that this is abused on a regular basis by a hand full of champions. its not too much to ask to dial it back down a notch.

it would make more sense to nerf the stackable armor penetration and buff fighters and assassins who would suffer from that change rather to keep it as a systematic issue in the game, that is abused by some champions.

PermabannedGaren1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FsIhefkW,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-06T21:21:51.628+0000)

lol. if you have a better idea then im all ears. the reasoning behind this is simply that there is so much more stackable armor penetration available than in previous seasons due to the maw changes and duskblade introduction.

Nerf the one marksman who is a problem with this itemization?

there is a large problem with certain champions stacking every single armor pen item available and making armor as a stat generally shitty and shred even through tanks in seconds.

No, no ADC running the Korean build except Lucian (due to his ult's synergy with BC) was ever killing tanks easily in the late game. Miss Fortune is actually much worse at killing tanks with her super bursty armour pen build because of how little attack speed she gets. Jhin kills tanks much more easily with an Essence Reaver crit build. Indeed, his DPS is apparently mathematically better with ER plus IE than it is with youmuu's plus duskblade.

Also, who is stacking every armour pen item available? MF stacks the most. She has four. There's still more armour pen she could buy, namely Maw of Malmortius. And as said, she does less damage to tanks with this build unless they stand in her ult.

assassins should focus on taking down squishies, and for that purpose they usually dont need cleaver. its supposed to be more of a secondary item for them, and in case of heavy armor stacking teams it can replace ghostblade in their builds.

Can you point out another item that gives them health, a passive that makes them better at chasing and escaping, a decent amount of AD, armour reduction, as well as 20% CDR? Talon's most common and highest win percent build has both. Hell, the latter also has Last Whisper. Zed buys both. Riven is another champion who relies on both items, and sometimes even a Last Whisper.

they may have been more reliant on it previously, but since duskblades introduction they have their own pen itemization. item 3142 item 3147 item 3156

Zed and Talon buy literally all those items plus Black Cleaver in many if not most games. What's your point? Assassin's benefit a great deal from armour pen and even reduction.

if this really hits them too hard and they cant take down squishies on those items anymore than id prefer a direct buff to those assassins over keeping 70 flat armor pen plus cleaver or last whisper as a possibility in the game.

No one cares what you'd prefer. The idea that we should nerf the utilization of a bunch of items because Jhin and Jhin alone is an issue with them at the moment is absurdly stupid. Just nerf Jhin. Much less complicated.

we can see that this is abused on a regular basis by a hand full of champions. its not too much to ask to dial it back down a notch.

Name the champions.

it would make more sense to nerf the stackable armor penetration and buff fighters and assassins who would suffer from that change rather to keep it as a systematic issue in the game, that is abused by some champions.

By one champion at the moment.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Nerf the one marksman who is a problem with this itemization?

No, no ADC running the Korean build except Lucian (due to his ult's synergy with BC) was ever killing tanks easily in the late game. Miss Fortune is actually much worse at killing tanks with her super bursty armour pen build because of how little attack speed she gets. Jhin kills tanks much more easily with an Essence Reaver crit build. Indeed, his DPS is apparently mathematically better with ER plus IE than it is with youmuu's plus duskblade.

Also, who is stacking every armour pen item available? MF stacks the most. She has four. There's still more armour pen she could buy, namely Maw of Malmortius. And as said, she does less damage to tanks with this build unless they stand in her ult.

Can you point out another item that gives them health, a passive that makes them better at chasing and escaping, a decent amount of AD, armour reduction, as well as 20% CDR? Talon's most common and highest win percent build has both. Hell, the latter also has Last Whisper. Zed buys both. Riven is another champion who relies on both items, and sometimes even a Last Whisper.

Zed and Talon buy literally all those items plus Black Cleaver in many if not most games. What's your point? Assassin's benefit a great deal from armour pen and even reduction.

No one cares what you'd prefer. The idea that we should nerf the utilization of a bunch of items because Jhin and Jhin alone is an issue with them at the moment is absurdly stupid. Just nerf Jhin. Much less complicated.

Name the champions.

By one champion at the moment.

its not just jhinn, but also miss fortune, lucian and quinn. and as long as the possibility of this build exists, it will keep popping up over an over just like the fucking bruiser assassin/adc builds did. they nerfed those builds by at least letting maw and steraks not stack anymore. which was an actual nerf for fighters as opposed to this.

whos next with this stupid korean build? varus? jayce? theyre both pretty good candidates for abuse of these items. so is cait with her long ranged headshots. and ive seen ghostblde/duskblade/last whisper on draven recently aswell.

having that much stackable armor penetration is a systematic problem. you can either nerf the champions around a build that shouldnt exist, or you can just get rid of it. armor as a stat shouldnt be possible to be made worthless.

and of fucking course 5 armor pen items is the highest win % build on talon. it lets him assassinate and 1v1 anyone, even champs he shouldnt be able to fight too easily. that doesnt mean this is a healthy build.

talon is looking at a large scale rework aswell, so this would be the perfect time to get his dependency on a full armor pen build out of the way, and have him function without a cheese build.

PermabannedGaren1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FsIhefkW,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-07T06:57:41.547+0000)

its not just jhinn, but also miss fortune, lucian and quinn.

Miss Fortune is not a problem with this build, she's strong, but not too big of an issue.

Lucian? After his nerfs? Fuck off, he's not even remotely a problem.

No, Quinn was a problem when she could stack maw and sterak's. Her often building Black Cleaver and Youmuu's together is not an issue. Quinn isn't suddenly a problem just because she counters Garen.

and as long as the possibility of this build exists, it will keep popping up over an over just like the fucking bruiser assassin/adc builds did. they nerfed those builds by at least letting maw and steraks not stack anymore. which was an actual nerf for fighters as opposed to this.

In what world is forcing, say, Wukong into having to choose between Youmuu's and BC not a nerf for him, as an example?

You're insane if you think this won't nerf a lot of champions.

whos next with this stupid korean build? varus? jayce? theyre both pretty good candidates for abuse of these items.

We can only hope, considering that Varus is poopy dog shit on any given patch. As opposed to Jhin and Lucian, two champs who were already quite strong but grew out of line with these builds.

Jayce already stacks youmuu's, BC, and LW in most games and he's not a problem.

so is cait with her long ranged headshots.

No, she's too reliant on crit and attack speed.

and ive seen ghostblde/duskblade/last whisper on draven recently aswell.

And? It's a build you take to snowball hard that falls off late game and it's on one of the least safe marksmen (it's also not as reliable as a typical Draven build).

having that much stackable armor penetration is a systematic problem. you can either nerf the champions around a build that shouldnt exist, or you can just get rid of it. armor as a stat shouldnt be possible to be made worthless.

Someone who stacks that much armour penetration is countered by health . Sure, they're making armour much less effective, but in the late game your health is going to make it much harder for them to hurt you than a more typical ADC build is.

and of fucking course 5 armor pen items is the highest win % build on talon. it lets him assassinate and 1v1 anyone, even champs he shouldnt be able to fight too easily. that doesnt mean this is a healthy build.

List of champions a Talon with that build could not 1v1:

Aatrox Akali Darius DrMundo Diana Fiora Illaoi Irelia Jax Malphite Malzahar MasterYi Mordekaiser Nasus Olaf Renekton Riven Rengar Shen Shyvana TahmKench (Well, maybe he could now, Tahm is kind of shit) Trundle Tryndamere Udyr Vayne Vi Warwick Volibear MonkeyKing XinZhao Yasuo Yorick

There might be more, but I'm almost positive about most of these.

But sure, he might actually be able to 1v1 Garen with this build (though I kind of doubt it, the lack of combat sustain makes it unlikely). Garen's a much shittier duelist than you'd think though.

talon is looking at a large scale rework aswell, so this would be the perfect time to get his dependency on a full armor pen build out of the way, and have him function without a cheese build.

Lol, were you not even paying attention to pre-season? Armour penetration is meant to be one of the core AD assassin stats. Talon isn't just good when he stacks armour penetration, he's meant to stack it.

No, Talon and Zed building crit was them using cheese builds.

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