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A Possible fix to the "99"lp problem

Arcade Andrew··4 votes·2,611 views

ever get stuck in that dead zone of 95-99 lp and youre thinking riot wtf? you cant give me 1-5 more lp?!?!? (95 and under lp this could be applied as well but on a lesser scale)

We all have, and currently im at 98 lp ;-;

so this suggestion isnt a fix to giving you more lp but more a fix to lets say give you the option to prevent this lp problem in the future.

My possible idea would be

An LP "bank"

the LP bank would store that extra lp (up to a cap of 25 extra LP) How it would work is when you win a game at 90+ lp an extra LP (say you are winning +14 lp and you are at 90 LP, youd only get 10lp not 14) the extra 4 lp would be stored in the lp bank for future use. you can only use the lp bank when you are above 90 lp and you can use it to avoid the 99LP problem (IE you get a win and you get 99lp, you can use 1 lp from lp bank to get to your series)

looking for constructive thoughts on this and or general improvements you think could be added to maek this better

not just "muh abuse" and downvotes

22 Comments

BranchofSin55802 votes

muh abuse

enjoy your free downvote

Arcade Andrew1 votes

youre why good ideas never get noticed

BranchofSin55801 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcade Andrew,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FsEgq575,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-05-12T19:04:24.919+0000)

youre why good ideas never get noticed

stop abusing me you sicko

ps: i didnt actually downvote you

Arcade Andrew1 votes

I am sorry :c

Nameless Voice1 votes

You don't actually know why you end up with 99lp, do you?

It's because your actual skill level is your MMR, and your LP - the visible value - is generally slightly misaligned from this value.

When your LP is significantly higher than your MMR, it gives you really small LP gains because your MMR isn't high enough for you to qualify for a promotion.

Also, it's not as if playing an extra game "wastes" the rest of the LP from the win - rather, your MMR is still increasing, so you will gain more LP in your next win if your LP is now seen as below where it should be for your MMR.

Arcade Andrew3 votes

you end up with 99lp because say youre gaining 10-15 lp a win

and youre at 89 lp

you need 11lp you win and only get 10 boom 99lp

when you win the 99lp game THAT EXTRA LP IS GONE

you dont gain it back and it it never helps you anymore, youre now in promos and must win 2/3 or 3/5 games to advance and if you lose you go back down to75+ lp if you win you are at 0

Little known fact you are right on one point though you do get mmr and it has been said that they best way to get high mmr to get high lp gains is to stay in a division and win all non promo games, then lose your promos (win one lose 2) and repeat because of the fact that promos dont give or lose you lp, only mmr when you win the non promo matches your mmr and lp is increasing then you go into promos a safe zone of lp gain/loss to win one (boost mmr ) then lose two (lose slight mmr but no lp)

Lord Dusteon1 votes

That would easily be abusable, as LP earned at Bronze V =/= LP earned at Diamond V. That would make it beneficial to get as low a placement as you can, then crush people while climbing for the +25 LP bank to use when you actually reached your normal rank to climb further.

Arcade Andrew1 votes

Yeah but I think you missed the part where it caps at 25 lp and you can only use it at 90 lp or above, meaning they would only be climbing ten lp further, most of the time the 90+ lp gap you are losing lp, because say youre at 95lp,

and you gain 20-25 lp

starting at 0 lp you gain 25 lp for three wins in a row then 20 on the fourth putting you at 95 lp

now lets say you win again, youre losing 15-20 lp by playing a game where youll only win five and that extra lp is just gone

Mandang01 votes

The problem isn't 95-99 LP, the problem is promos in the first place.

They don't offer anything to the game, and they lead to ladder anxiety and annoyances like the one in the OP.

S H A Y C 01 votes

i think a better solution would be to stop letting the system give you incremental odd numbers...either you gain 20 and lose 10 or gain 10 and lose 20...this also gives a buffer zone. while the system wants you to be gaining 11-19 you still gain the 20. once you hit 10 then you gain 10 lose 20. same buffer going the other direction. behind the scenes you work from 10 to 20 gains only gaining 10 and losing 20 the entire time. harder to get to max pos but just as hard to lose it. just a thought.

Mandang01 votes

[{quoted}](name=ToiletteOfDoom ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FsEgq575,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-05-12T18:39:03.468+0000)

i think a better solution would be to stop letting the system give you incremental odd numbers...either you gain 20 and lose 10 or gain 10 and lose 20...this also gives a buffer zone. while the system wants you to be gaining 11-19 you still gain the 20. once you hit 10 then you gain 10 lose 20. same buffer going the other direction. behind the scenes you work from 10 to 20 gains only gaining 10 and losing 20 the entire time. harder to get to max pos but just as hard to lose it. just a thought.

The problem here is that the LP gains are too granular. If a guy who should be gaining 11 gains as much as a guy who should be gaining 19, you're just making it easier for players who don't deserve to move up to do so, which puts players in tiers they don't belong in.

Of course, everything on the matchmaking side is still done with MMR, so it begs the question of why we have LP to begin with. I suppose you could run into this same problem with MMR though; so long as Riot's married to the idea of promo series, there will be some people who fall a few points short of the arbitrary LP/MMR cutoff where you enter a promo series. I think there's still a good reason to have people at 95 LP/MMR rather than 100, but the problem is how this interacts with Riot's promo series.

Bottom line: get rid of promo series, and none of this is a problem.

S H A Y C 02 votes

how would the system work if there were no promos? lets say silver 5 is 1400 mmr. i am 1390 mmr (im not but lets say :P) so i Q ranked, win a game, mmr goes up 10...boom! silver 5, sweet animation!. play a game in silver 5, lose with an afk...boom animation bronze 1

that sounds aweful

Mandang01 votes

[{quoted}](name=ToiletteOfDoom ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FsEgq575,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-05-12T18:57:30.473+0000)

how would the system work if there were no promos? lets say silver 5 is 1400 mmr. i am 1390 mmr (im not but lets say :P) so i Q ranked, win a game, mmr goes up 10...boom! silver 5, sweet animation!. play a game in silver 5, lose with an afk...boom animation bronze 1

that sounds aweful

Well, before Riot ever introduced LP or promos or any of this, they gave end of season rewards based on your highest MMR in the season and only displayed your highest MMR in your profile - both meant to ease player anxiety over the situations you just described. There's very little downside to doing it that way - any concerns about players screwing around once they've hit their peak are just as appropriate in today's system where it's effectively impossible to demote from one tier to another. The upside is that someone at 97 LP/MMR is only 3 points behind someone at 100, not an entire game (should they win) behind them getting into their promos. You also don't have to worry about promos artificially preventing people from reaching their correct place on the ladder. Riot has a system of varying LP gains based on how far your LP is from your MMR, but none of that works in promos, where the only outcome that matters is win or loss.

Seriously, what's the benefit of promo series or LP? What can they do better than the system I've described? I can only think of one thing, and that's only a thing because of another bad decision Riot's made, so I'm not gonna bring it up.

S H A Y C 01 votes

i dont see any benefit, its the only ranked ive ever known so im asking you a serious question. it would be nice to know where you are currently as well as what your highest was though

Mandang01 votes

Well, I think the system would work exactly the same as it does now, except the difference between bronze 1 90 LP and silver 5 0 LP is 1 win rather than having to win that game just to get into a bo5 promo series to advance. I know Riot makes a big deal of the different tiers for their rewards, but it seems a very arbitrary cutoff to me, so I don't think there should be such a great barrier between tiers. For those concerned about losing their reward, you just reward based on the highest LP/MMR a player has earned during the season. That's basically how it works right now, where it's very hard to get demoted a tier, so I'm not afraid that it would introduce any more trolling than we have currently.

S H A Y C 01 votes

does anybody know why they introduced this layer of stupid on top of a perfectly fine system? did they want people to be able to drop?

Const the Ginger1 votes

If I'm not mistaken, every game won and lost in promos adds and subtracts lp. You could be at 125 lp after ur first win, and then lose two games only dropping 15 each which puts u back at 95 lp.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

If it is correct, it would be cool if it went to the next tier/division. Let's say you're at 95, and win 3 straight and get promoted, gaining 15 lp each win, putting you at 140. This would translate into 40 lp in your next division.

I see what you're saying, it's pretty annoying to be gaining 18 lp when u only need 2. But odds are, when you're only 2 lp away, you only need 1 win out of 2 games to get into promo. You have a buffer of 1 loss before it knocks u out. So, I doubt any changes would be made since it's still pretty fair.

Mandang01 votes

This would be cool, but at that point, why even have the promo series in the first place? What if you gain 19 for a win, lose 12 for a loss, and go 2-3 in your series? You should have gained 2 LP, yet the outcome of the promo says you failed... which one is it?

Const the Ginger1 votes

{quoted}

This would be cool, but at that point, why even have the promo series in the first place? What if you gain 19 for a win, lose 12 for a loss, and go 2-3 in your series? You should have gained 2 LP, yet the outcome of the promo says you failed... which one is it?

You shouldn't look at lp that way unless youre gaining and losing the same amount, which defeats the purpose.

But the goal is to hit 100 lp, then the goal is to win 2/3 or 3/5. The lp it's counting after u hit promo is just the decision on where to put u if you fail your promo. Instead of putting u at 0, 50, or 90 every time. This is how I think it works now, and I feel like a decent change would be to make it go both ways.

Ive never liked the system. In the end, you have to win 3/4 and 4/6 to get promoted because you have to win the first game to get into promos anyway haha.

Mandang01 votes

Well, I completely agree that it should work both ways. But once you have a system like that, I no longer see a reason for a promo series (for the reason I argued in my last post). The problem I was trying to show is that a lot of players who should advance in tiers based on their MMR are held back because they fail promos, possibly even losing LP when they should be gaining it for going 2-3.

And yea, promos are terrible in general - they contribute at least as much to ladder anxiety as the system they replaced, they require Riot to create a system of demotion protection, and they create the LP overkill situations like the OP has discussed.

Arcade Andrew1 votes

nah promos work on a you must win 2/3 or 3/5 basis to get promoted then it slaps you into the next divison with 0lp

so if you win one at 99 lp you still need two more promo wins to get promoted

Oksanaandjoy1 votes

I can see some merit in this. I have certainly felt that frustration of needing only 1 or 2 LP to get into promos. It seems like such a waste that only 1 or 2 of those points get counted and the rest just disappear.

My thought on this would be that promos still exist in their current form. They are a competitive measure to see if you can perform when it counts; I can see the point of that. Excess LP that isn't "spent" to get you into your promos is banked. Eg. You are on 90 LP and you win a game that gains you 17 LP; 7LP goes into the bank.

I would suggest a limit is set for how much LP can be spent to "top up" into promos. Perhaps its small just to remove the frustration of needing only 1-5 LP. Or perhaps it's more generous: the equivalent of about a game. I'd be satisfied with the former.

This or we could just draw pictures.... it works for RP!

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