Does anyone feel that the only reason why Malzahar is good is because of his passive?

YumaS2Astral··57 votes·4,817 views

With those recent Malzahar changes I must say, I miss old Malzahar. His old self didn't had this passive which is awesome to protect him from many of its old weakness, mainly initial burst damage, all-ins, crowd control, and ganks. However, he also did a lot more damage, wasn't weak early game, didn' had massive mana costs, and wasn't reliant on his voidlings to do damage.

The only reason why new Malzahar succeeds is because of this broken as fuck passive. Malzahar himself may not be broken, but his passive surely is. 90% damage reduction coupled with immunity to CC, even though it is easily broken at late game, it is just as easly regained. This is the only reason why Malzahar is good since his damage has been significantly nerfed compared to his old self. Q and E had its ratios and bases nerfed, W is now a completely different spell, and his new R cannot be compared to his old R.

Also, Malzahar is very weak early, and his mana costs are higher. Old Malzahar was strong early game because of his old W, his ability to push early without a lot of AP, and his abilities had insane base damage. At least new Malzahar is safe from ganks and all-ins because of his passive, but whenever I play him I struggle a lot until I can complete Morellonomicon + Rylai, whereas with the old Malzahar oftentimes I would not even use mana items on him at all and I would just rely on 2 dorans and straight up rush Rylai for even more early game power. I can't do that with the new Malzahar because his new E does not recover enough mana to allow him to work without mana items, he absolutely needs Morellonomicon now (either that or Rod of Ages, but on my opinion Morello is better due to the CDR, new Malz is a lot more CDR reliant than old Malz).

Riot keeps talking of how much old Malzahar was unhealthy, but on my opinion new Malzahar is the unhealthy one while old Malzahar was perfectly balanced. Why new Malzahar is unhealthy? Well, he has a broken passive, but the rest of his kit is below average in terms of damage. This means he is relying on a broken mechanic to allow the rest of his kit to work, but the rest of his kit has to be nerfed to compensate, creating a situation where Riot might as well just nerf or replace this passive with something healthier then buff the rest of his kit.

At least his abilities synergize with each other, but when compared to old Malzahar, they don't feel as rewarding. Riot keeps talking of how unhealthy was that old Malzahar could 100-0 you, but trust me, he could never do that if you was smart and had a QSS. Nowadays it is worse because with or without QSS, Malzahar cannot 100-0 anyone that isn't incredibly squishy (that is, lacking any sort of tankyness).

85 Comments

ZT Xperimentor12 votes

I agree the rework made him more frustrating to fight, no surprise since riot tends to over do things. But I'd say his passive belongs more on mordekaiser; someone without mobility, crowd control, and range.

Raid Boss Morde3 votes

That would be amazing, but you can't just get rid of Mordekaiser's passive, it's way too unique to him.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

I agree it's unique for him, but I didn't mean for it to replace it either. I'd suggest this banshee's veil like shield having less of a damage reduction component & being added ontop of his iron shield passive. So that he wouldn't become insanely tanky, while giving him the capacity to ignore the first debilitating ability used on him. A banshee's veil effect that only blocks crowd control or debuffs (on a moderate cooldown ~10 seconds), but not damage; while his original shield still absorbs some damage.

Raid Boss Morde4 votes

That would be cool, but perhaps a little too strong? What about him getting Tenacity based off how much shield he has?

TequilaZombie2 votes

On a reversely proportional scale please. Morde doesn't need help once he's on top of someone (and has a big shield already), but rather needs it to get up close.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Good point

NineTailedMystic1 votes

plsno

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

It's a thought experiment; I HIGHLY doubt riot would even do that.

Masala Chai2 votes

Why don't they just give him two passives then?

I mean they did it with Yasuo, they did it with Azir.

Raid Boss Morde1 votes

That would make Mordekaiser have 4 passives o__o

  1. Iron Man
  2. (Tenacity Shield)
  3. Extra EXP
  4. Dragon Ghost

But anyways, if they did give him this, they would have to nerf his shield, or remove something like his dragon passive.

Jayrett1 votes

I'd say remove the extra exp. it was added to make him viable bot lone but it doesn't really work as well as any other lane tbh.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

I'd rather they remove the dragon & extra exp, those were just tacked on so riot could force him against marksmen, which was a foolish idea at best.

Ralanr10 votes

I honestly don't understand why he has damage reduction on top of CC immunity with that passive. I feel CC immunity is enough.

Pika Fox10 votes

Because his role is anti assassin, assassins rely on initial CC and damage. Malz has no mobility to outplay, so he has direct mitigation.

General Esdeath 7 votes

Rely on CC

Zed laughing in the distance

Melledoneus12 votes

Zed Laughing starts turning into sobbing

Akali is SO HOT3 votes

He doesn't need mobility to outplay them when all he has to do is press R

Sun Wukong Sun2 votes

Akali Kassadin Katarina Khazix LeeSin MasterYi Nidalee Talon Tristana Tryndamere Zed would like to have a word with you.

Pika Fox1 votes

What word would they like to have? All of them rely on initial CC + Damage, Damage, or arent primarily assassins (Yi tryd trist).

Many also had their quick CC removed (Kass Talon Leblanc)

And numerious others have soft CC in their kits.

LiveYiOrDieHard8 votes

His passive is an abomination, I really can't comprehend how they could have ever thought it was a good idea. The only reason I don't ban him is there's even more broken crap out there right now.

fluxanna1 votes

Welcome to the post 6.9 party.

Have a Nice Game1 votes

The patch with one of the best numbers was the worst one for me

RIP Old Malz

Only Play Darius7 votes

They give him a free Banshee's veil on crack then overbuff his voildings to the point that he starts displaying the same problems that Yorick has. Ill conceived rework imo

Count Zubat6 votes

Let's just be honest: Malzahar and Vel'Koz reworks were completely unneeded, at least in the form they were delivered.

warpenguin5556 votes

As an old malz main i want his passive to get gutted. Maybe then he can have an actual early game presence in lane again

Pika Fox5 votes

Honestly from what ive seen Malzahar isnt good at all currently. He can abuse specific lane matchups, but thats really about all he has going for him.

TequilaZombie4 votes

I like the new Malz. Now you have to actually use your entire kit to do your job instead of putting your mouse in the general direction of champion, smash WER and kill them.

Forcing someone to buy an item solely because of one spell on your kit is not healthy gameplay. Specially because it's a considerably expensive item that offers nothing but magic resist. If you are anyone but Galio, you don't really want to rush magic resist. If you are not an AD champion, you don't want Mercurial Scimitar and is now sitting on 1300 regretfully expent gold that is not even gold efficient by itself.

Malz was turned in more of a team player now. He deals quite a bit of damage, but not enough to one shot someone by himself. Instead he hard CC's someone while controling the battle field and gaining some sustained dmg. Also, his new void cancers are awesome.

kile1473 votes

While I don't disagree that his pattern was unhealthy... He didn't force anyone to buy QSS any more than Zed forces mages to buy zhonyas. If you didn't have QSS you took your lumps laning phase and then made sure to not be alone after that, same as Zed. The main difference is that Zed gives the illusion of being able to do something while Malzahar just made you stand there and die. In the end the result is always the same, both killed whoever they ulted.

TequilaZombie3 votes

There is a difference between being bursted to death and CC'ed to death.

When a Zed jumps at you, you can fight him back, you can CC him, you can try to dodge his dmg. I short: you have a chance to deal with him.

When an old Malz ulted you, unless you were GP, Olaf or Ali, you'd be CC'ed to death without any chance of fighting back on your own.

kile1472 votes

On the flip side, if a Zed ults you when there are teammates a bit away from you he can still blow you up before they can help, whereas Malzahar's combo takes long enough that a teammate can help you.

That being said I am not disagreeing that Malzhar's combo felt worse to play against, but he functioned very similarly to a champ that Riot praises as one of the healthiest in the game. In the end they both forced you to rush a specific item which makes your laning phase weaker, or else risk dying or being zoned. It feels like shit to buy the 1300 gold QSS? It feels bad to buy the 2900 gold Zhonyas too.

TequilaZombie2 votes

The thing is: if you are an AP champion against Zed buying Zhonyas is viable (and up until recently, optimal). If you were AD, you could buy QSS, build it into a MS and have a decent item.

Malz would require you to buy a QSS no matter what.

But anyway, I feel like we're going to the wrong point with this discussion. Arguing what is worse: Aids or Cancer, is not the way to go.

The thing is: forcing someone to buy an item simply because you exist is unhealthy for both sides. The one buying it feels cheated because he has to rush something outside his build otherwise he's dead every minute or so. The one forcing the buy feels cheated after the item is bought, as he can't do anything to the enemy who has it now.

As you said, there is also the feeling that his old play style had: I will instantly kill you now and all you can do is hope your team reacts on time. This is extremely toxic gameplay. You feel hopeless during the entire time that Malz combo is being executed with no chance of counterplay.

It takes an already toxic concept (forcing specific item) and adds a toxic gameplay pattern (you sit still and die) on top of it.

With the changes he is still annoying, but to a much smaller extent.

Jungle Lux God4 votes

Old Malzahar has significantly higher mana costs than new Malzahar. His E's mana cost is the same at early levels and doesn't scale as hard (old was 60-120, new is 60-100), his W is lower at all levels (new is 80 at all ranks while old was 90-110) and his Q started the same, but scaled higher (old was 80-100, new is 80 at all ranks).

Ruin Lance3 votes

yes it is what makes him toxic. if you're melee you are literally powerless against him. if you try going on him you will lose too much health trying to bring down his shield while he kites you with rylai's and voidlings and his poison without even needing his ult to kill you unless you're insanely tanky. if you ask me he didn't need any more stuff to keep assassins off of him. rylai's was core on him, which helped him kite and zone. his ult made it so that people couldn't just jump on him whenever they wanted. and his silence also helped with people who were jumping on him. it's stupid how broken he is now and the passive shield's strength is totally unnecessary. if they toned it down then maybe he wouldn't be as ridiculous as he is.

killd0zer3 votes

Old Malzahar was strong early game because of his old W

I agree with the premise of your post but this stood out to me. Old Malz W was hilariously weak early game and without his ult was pretty useless.

Have a Nice Game1 votes

It actually did a good bit of damage and because it "seemed" like it didn't do much damage early, it was an easy way to both slowly poke the enemy laner down and deal damage to minions for getting mana back via malefic visions right before you all in them.

killd0zer2 votes

No it actually didn't.

If an enemy was dumb enough to stand in it for 3 seconds (which absolutely never happened without CC) it did 12% of max hp at rank 1, which it stayed at until 13. So against 1k health thats 120 base damage which is pretty poor, considering the ridiculous conditions you'd have to be under to pull that off.

Without some form of CC, it was pretty easily one of the most useless abilities in the game. Combined with CC? It was near broken late game.

Have a Nice Game1 votes

"and deal damage to minions for getting mana back via malefic visions"

When I say slowly poke them down, I actually did mean slowly poke them down.

It was also a good way to check how much damage you could do to them since if it was one of your weakest early spells, everything else should be stronger right?

killd0zer2 votes

I mean no competent Malz player poked with W so i don't even know what u on kid. peace

Have a Nice Game2 votes

Aye. That closed-mindedness and lack of appreciation on its applications are a couple of the reasons why Null Zone can no longer be freely placed.

Have a nice day.

killd0zer2 votes

Actually its because idiots like you tried to harass with it XD

Riot removes gameplay elements thats poor players are unable to use properly, or that look enticing but actually suck, such as harassing with null zone (bronze 5 move)

So Null Zone cannot be freely placed anymore due to closed-mindedness if by closed-mindedness you mean being bad at league of legends. Try not to blame yourself too hard.

Have a Nice Game2 votes

Alright. You know what? You're right.

I'm just a pleb. You, the great Malzahar master knows all and my 56%+ win rate for Malz on multiple accounts will never achieve the awesome game knowledge you possess.

In all seriousness though, have a nice 4th of July.

Malix Farwin3 votes

I mentioned tat months ago and of course downvoted. He functioned just fine when he didnt have it and now all of a sudden he somehow needs it.

Jeddy0173 votes

To be fair, one of the goals of the rework was to make Malz less about burst damage & more about sustained damage. So of course he's not going to be 100-0-ing people in a short amount of time. That's also maybe part of the reason for the passive. So he can stay in the fight long enough to do some damage. He doesn't have the benefit of hanging back from the fight like a Lux, Xerath or Ziggs. Nor does he have any innate tankiness or sustain to help him survive in the fight like Vlad or Swain. The passive was a way to provide Malz some defense while he go on the offense because it's going to take sometime for him to kill his target. I mean, imagine the new, sustained damage Malz without his new passive. People are more likely to either get away or turn on him, especially in a teamfight. Also, there's also the fact that a number of his damage was pushed onto the voidlings themselves. So he is more reliant on them & those voidlings aren't burst people either.

This then begs the questions: Was pushing him from a burst damage playstyle to a sustained damage playstyle the right choice? Was this new passive the right way to go to provide Malz some defense? If the passive is changed or removed, how could they change Malz to keep the sustained damage playstyle?

Wimbledofy2 votes

Malzahar is also much better at taking objectives now too.

Ez dePaz6 votes

Not really. His clears are actually slower than before the rework.

Have a Nice Game2 votes

I'm guessing you have never seen pre-rework AD Malz before

Dem Towers Doe

Nahui1 votes

Biggest problem with old malz was that his ult did too much damage for what it did. A long suppress. The idea is you Q-w-e-ult and the combination of the damage wrecks someone. What was happening was malz ulted with just his e and you were dead. That was toxic as fuck.

YumaS2Astral3 votes

{quoted}

Biggest problem with old malz was that his ult did too much damage for what it did. A long suppress. The idea is you Q-w-e-ult and the combination of the damage wrecks someone. What was happening was malz ulted with just his e and you were dead. That was toxic as fuck.

However you could (and still can) remove the suppression with QSS. You could (and still can) then either displace Malzahar or leave the range, or out-DPS Malzahar.

Nahui1 votes

You can't really out dps him as a full combo will just about kill someone. The void lings en masse are destructive. He's just requires to use about his whole kit vs squishes rather than two targeted powerful DOTs

YumaS2Astral2 votes

{quoted}

You can't really out dps him as a full combo will just about kill someone. The void lings en masse are destructive. He's just requires to use about his whole kit vs squishes rather than two targeted powerful DOTs

There are some champions who can in fact out DPS Malzahar if they break free from the suppression. For example, Vayne, Swain (pre-rework he could already outsustain and out-DPS Malzahar), Ryze, well, just about anyone who has some sort of lifesteal/spellvamp/in-combat sustain will out-DPS Malzahar as he himself has none.

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