I know it would probably hurt his trading power in lane, but come lategame it really fucking sucks how Q basically only gaurantees you half your spin duration at the most before your target immediately dashe/flashes out of range to continue kiting you to death. This change would allow him to actually kill things without being absurdly fed or relying on teammates for the rest of the damage.
Asayake 5150glow2 votesYeah I mean the whole point of not dying to Garen is to get out of his E, what you want is to basically make him unkitable? Garen either kills someone or forces them out (unless he dies, and if he's fed he doesn't). Not letting you get out of his E means he'd need to be absolute shit to be balanced because the moment he gets into Q range, you're dead because you can't avoid his E anymore. And Garen can definitely 100-0 with Cleaver and Sunfires.
TotalJerk2 votesDon't get Q'd in the first place? Garen has an extremely hard time landing that Q in the first place against mobile targets. The whole point of Juggernauts is that they have a hard time getting in range but they wreck shit when they do. This is how Darius, Nasus, and Udyr also function.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesDon't get Q'd in the first place? Garen has an extremely hard time landing that Q in the first place against mobile targets. The whole point of Juggernauts is that they have a hard time getting in range but they wreck shit when they do. This is how Darius, Nasus, and Udyr also function.
He really doesn't, because his Q has a low cooldown (8 seconds) and once maxed and with Black Cleaver, you get a total of 2.9 seconds to fight back, get out, and stay out - and remember, you just used your mobility to avoid being Q'd in the first place, and - oh whats that? He gets movespeed at you again? When you just used every single cooldown to either fight back in the little time you have (which you were eating Judgement during all of it, as well), stay away from his first Q, and then get out after comboing him?
As a melee champion, it is nearly impossible to not get hit by Garen's Q as of now. A Swifties Triforce Fiora hitting perfect Vitals might have a chance - might. But Fiora doesn't do that much damage in 2.9 seconds, she's more about extended trades than burst, especially against tanks.
Nasus's slow is stronger than Garen's speed boost, and it's ranged, but you can still use abilities during it.
Udyr is fast and harder to kite, but you can fight back, since he has little CC (short stun).
TotalJerk1 votesThis is what Garen is nowadays https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjrQMpP8jz0
Critmaster Garen1 votesYeah I mean the whole point of not dying to Garen is to get out of his E
if you get into range of his e, and youre not pretty decently tanky, then no. thats not the point.
you counterplay juggernauts by not lettng them get into melee range in the first place. once theyre already on top of you, expect to die.
that being said, i dont like the idea of replacing the silence. the game is loaded with cc and cc itemization. even if you dont have a mobility spell, without the silence you could just drop a slow and walk away from him it would be a pretty significant nerf imo.
Asayake 5150glow1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FkhNNOEP,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2017-02-20T03:49:03.851+0000)
if you get into range of his e, and youre not pretty decently tanky, then no. thats not the point.
you counterplay juggernauts by not lettng them get into melee range in the first place. once theyre already on top of you, expect to die.
that being said, i dont like the idea of replacing the silence. the game is loaded with cc and cc itemization. even if you dont have a mobility spell, without the silence you could just drop a slow and walk away from him it would be a pretty significant nerf imo.
Then what if you're melee?
You think juggernauts should literally stomp each and every melee match up? Early game, almost nobody is tanky. Skirmishers with the ability to kite juggernauts are the best way to defeat a juggernaut as a melee champion - juggernauts counter tanks (at least they are supposed to) because the tank can't get away from the juggernaut. A skirmisher, on the other hand, is able to kite around juggernauts. But they're melee - so they have to get into melee range to do damage.
If I get into melee range of Darius with Fiora or Riven, I'm gonna fuck him up until he gets 4 stacks, then I'll back off with my mobility. I'll also use my mobility to stay out of his Qblade.
If I get into melee range of Shyvana with Fiora, I'm doing a burst combo, hitting that Riposte for the attack speed slow, ulting, and running around her to proc those Vitals. With Riven, I'm doing a fast combo, dissengaging with Valor and/or Stormraiders, then going back in once my cooldowns are up, over and over again.
Illaoi? Q+W+auto+E get out. Do that, dodging stuff, till she gets low.
It's the same for every juggernaut in the game - with Garen, you take his Q on your shield with W+E as Riven or Riposte as Fiora. Then you dash out of his E and wait it out. Then you fight him, eating the next Q in ~3 seconds or dissengage, but usually you'll wanna keep fighting since he won't have enough damage to kill you at that point.
The problem with making the Silence a Grounding effect is that you can't fight back with Fiora or Riven anymore. Their main damage is on a dash - if they can't use it... they're not winning anything, even if they juked the entire E.
If I'm a fighter, I can probably expect to die. But as a Skirmisher? If I play it better than my opponent, I should kill them.
Critmaster Garen1 votesThen what if you're melee?
then youre probably decently tanky to not die in one ability rotation, and you have to play around cooldown windows.
Asayake 5150glow1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FkhNNOEP,comment-id=0003000100000000,timestamp=2017-02-20T12:56:01.955+0000)
then youre probably decently tanky to not die in one ability rotation, and you have to play around cooldown windows.
Did you not read anything else?
I'm talking about skirmishers who aren't tanky and rely on kiting.
Critmaster Garen1 votesDid you not read anything else?
I'm talking about skirmishers who aren't tanky and rely on kiting.
they have outplay abilities in their kits to deal with juggs. if its fiora parrying a garen q, or a yasuo who can move around and dodge illois tentacles or darius q.
ive easily won fights with fiora against garen in the past.
and a competent riven actually beats garen after the nerf to his silence down to 1.5 seconds.
but not every champion can fight every champion. maybe just accept that you cant take on every juggernaut head on and focus on different targets, while someone else deals with them whos better equipped.
you cant fight a quinn or vayne as garen. and you cant fight a garen as yi, and youre gonna get stomped by a nasus as fiora. thats just how the game works right now.
Asayake 5150glow1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FkhNNOEP,comment-id=000300010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-20T13:36:13.312+0000)
they have outplay abilities in their kits to deal with juggs. if its fiora parrying a garen q, or a yasuo who can move around and dodge illois tentacles or darius q.
ive easily won fights with fiora against garen in the past.
and a competent riven actually beats garen after the nerf to his silence down to 1.5 seconds.
but not every champion can fight every champion. maybe just accept that you cant take on every juggernaut head on and focus on different targets, while someone else deals with them whos better equipped.
you cant fight a quinn or vayne as garen. and you cant fight a garen as yi, and youre gonna get stomped by a nasus as fiora. thats just how the game works right now.
Yes, yes yes.
But not if Garen's Q turned into a longer grounding.
You get me?
It's fine the way it is. With Grounding, it wouldn't be.
Also Yasuo cannot really dodge Darius Q due to his dash being a set distance. Minions would have to be in the perfect position for him to do that.
Also Fiora can defeat Nasus, I think you need to Riposte the Wither for it to be done well, otherwise it's a bit tougher. Fiora heavily outscales, however.
Critmaster Garen1 votesAlso Fiora can defeat Nasus, I think you need to Riposte the Wither for it to be done well, otherwise it's a bit tougher. Fiora heavily outscales, however.
hitting riposte on wither is almost impossible. the spell is instantaneously. its just so much easier for nasus to bait or force out riposte, then wither and pummel fiora with q's than it is for fiora to parry the ability and kill him before he bursts her.
she doesnt actually outscale him. ive played that matchup a lot. nasus with stormraider wins.
and turning garens q into a grounded ability will not prevent enemies from using spells and item actives. every single champion will kite the shit out of him by building a single slow item. there are so many items that can do that and even permaslow with certain champion kits, that hed be completely trashed.
no, thank you.
Asayake 5150glow1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FkhNNOEP,comment-id=00030001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-20T14:41:48.271+0000)
hitting riposte on wither is almost impossible. the spell is instantaneously. its just so much easier for nasus to bait or force out riposte, then wither and pummel fiora with q's than it is for fiora to parry the ability and kill him before he bursts her.
she doesnt actually outscale him. ive played that matchup a lot. nasus wins.
and turning garens q into a grounded ability will not prevent enemies from using spells and item actives. every single champion will kit the shit out of him by building a single slow item.
no, thank you.
Riven's Q's are dashes and are uncastable when she's grounded, so...~~~~
Pretty damn sure she does. I mean, 12% of your max health per Vital... there's a reason why Fiora is the godliest late game duelist ever. You'd have to Q her ~3 times assuming you don't have 1k stacks. Q has ~2 second CD, 6 seconds is plenty for Fiora to hit 5 Vitals, and then she's got a bigass heal you gotta chew through as well.
I mean, I guess it depends on how big Nasus's model is, and whether or not Fiora can go through him with a single Q. If not, proccing Vitals will be insanely tough.
Critmaster Garen1 votesRiven's Q's are dashes and are uncastable when she's grounded, so...~~~~
it doesnt matter as long as garens q animation is what it is. its so slow that it gives enemies enough time to cast abilities between the animation start, and time time until the q connects.
she will always be able to e out of his q, and walk away. if its a grounded debuff or a silence doesnt matter.
Pretty damn sure she does. I mean, 12% of your max health per Vital... there's a reason why Fiora is the godliest late game duelist ever. You'd have to Q her ~3 times assuming you don't have 1k stacks. Q has ~2 second CD, 6 seconds is plenty for Fiora to hit 5 Vitals, and then she's got a bigass heal you gotta chew through as well.
I mean, I guess it depends on how big Nasus's model is, and whether or not Fiora can go through him with a single Q. If not, proccing Vitals will be insanely tough.
like i said. ive played the matchup. if nasus gets stacked, which isnt very difficult, he wins.
Automated Riven1 votesif fiora builds qss and riposts one of nasus's q then nasus should lose a 6 item vs 6 item duel. but if fiora plays right she wins every duel late game unless he gets fed enough to 1shot her.
Gamer Gallade1 votesnot to mention giving 
a grounded effect still has some effect towards his counters like 
OR any Champion that has a dash ability.
Dont get me wrong, I hate Garen because of how too simple he is but He does need some extra love because of how low tier of a champion he is.
Laning against a Garen is just try not to die on the meat head or let him destroy everyone while he roams to kill others.
And silence is almost unhealthy for the game as it changes.
TotalJerk1 votesEver since the rework he isn't a lane bully anymore. He relies on the silence to win trades. If he just has grounded a lot of champions could fight back early on and come out ahead. Silence completely removes fighting back as an option.
Automated Riven1 votesunless your riven. she can do the same thing with a silence as what she can if she is grounded. :(
TotalJerk1 votesGaren can't catch Riven, though. Since his silence got nerfed and his damage lowered she just dances circles around him. Neither of them have any kill pressure, but Riven's kit gives her far more control over the lane and she roams better.
Automated Riven1 votesexactly. she dashes away and moves away from him while he spins and then wrecks his face as soon as he can no longer get 4 stacks on you.
TotalJerk1 votesIf Riven is grounded she can't cast Q or E.
Automated Riven1 votesshe does it during q animation. she can cast eq during the cast and be 300 units away by the time it lands. it also prevents garen from getting any spin damage.
WoonStruck1 votesI'd be in favor of reducing his "justice" passive's power in exchange for things like Tenacity on W.
ScissorsNstuff1 votesno
SaltyKracka1 votesIt would be super fucking broken.