In what world are mages problematic right now? You keep saying you'll look into ADCs, but you never actually do. Why do you keep nerfing mages but let ADCs dominate? Where's the logic?
Wtf is this balance team actually doing with their time apart from implementing useless changes?
At this point I am COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY mind-blown by the stupidity I see coming from this balance team. How can someone be this disconnected from their own game?
Dasdi9640 votesIt is because they are the only threat to adcs right now, and according to riot, it is unacceptable if the adc can be killed.
Blåbæret8 votesIt is because they are the only threat to adcs right now, and according to riot, it is unacceptable if the adc can be killed.
Ye man. It's cool that ADCs can outskill everyone forever and ever with AAs while the mage has to back to refill the manabar.
Sun Wu Ryuumoku4 votesoutskill ??? more like supports are the ones outskills everyones from shadow.
LVL99 Helper TK5 votesIt is because they are the only threat to adcs right now, and according to riot, it is unacceptable if the adc can be killed.
FrostQueensPlane20 votesYo remember when they said they were gonna rework Ahri then ended up just swapping her passive and Q passive while buffing her damage.
That was like 3 months of riot work. These people are hilarious.
NineTailedMystic5 votesThey never said they were going to rework her lol. They wanted to make her more satisfying to play because all she did was run around.
Häxel3 votesFunny how this got downvoted cause you are actualy right. no time there was a full rework in question, ahri got mentioned at the same time with Quinn and neither did she get a rework. They jsut thought they could do bigger changes to ahri adn they improved w but many other changes just didn't hit the mark and in the end they kept soem of the ms they originaly wanted to remove completly.
rtbf22165141218 votesThey are so disconnected that even one of **Rito said that Middlesticks is Fiddlesticks primary. ** Meanwhile they buffed his jungle and nerfed his Midlane.
And he is still Primarily support.
I'm not gonna let this go until they admit to it when they** directly said it themselves**.
Nausicäa 6 votesWtf is this balance team actually doing with their time apart from implementing useless changes?
They are busy taking 5 damage off Janna's W. I bet they had a board meeting to discuss that change and everything, there was wild debate back and forth, some team members thought it would ruin the champion completely and just do a full rework. But in the end sound minds prevailed and they settled on this genius nerf idea.
nelogis5 votesI'm going to play the devils advocat here.
A lot of people REALLY hate the current midlane where everyone spams abilities left and right and clrears waves all day.
And before you step in and say "but other classes do that too" Yeah they do but I don't thing that Darius is that great at clearing waves compared to Viktor.
Plus it has become a huge advantage to have good wave clear in mid and as soon as someone doesn't have that they are nigh unviable mid.
I think removing that could open up mid so other champions could play mid.
Keep in mind that Riot is trying to open up bot lane for other classes too and that the ADCs also can go to other lanes.
With this change, Jhin/Varus mid could become a strong pick. Which I don't have a problem with as long as it isn't Lucian.
Edit:
At this point I am COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY mind-blown by the stupidity I see coming from this balance team. How can someone be this disconnected from their own game?
You just don't see it the right way, this change is trying to do what I explained above. The right question would be "is this a good change?"
Also insulting Riot doesn't get you anywhere, try to avoid that and bring up reasonable arguments why you think this change is that terrible like you described.
Nyarlathοtep9 votesDo you know why current midlane is where everyone spam abilities? Its easy.
So they can roam bot so they can set their adc snowballing. Easy as that. Besides they arent talking about darius waveclear. He never comes to mid. (and he has still mana) They problem is zed, yasuo, katarina, vlad, generally every manaless midlaner. They can spam their abilities and push 24/7 with no repercussions. Mages wont be able to respond to that 24/7.
Besides mages trademark is waveclear. Nerfing their primary job is very VERY stupid.
And you do know that assassins at mid have good winrate right? And i'm strongly against adcs going to solo lane. They are supposed to be weak thus needing a support to help them.
nelogis4 votesDo you know why current midlane is where everyone spam abilities? Its easy.
Which reduces skill expression which is a HORRIBLE thing that has been plaguing this game. Making it less easy is a step in the right direction IMO.
So they can roam bot so they can set their adc snowballing. Easy as that.
And Riot is trying to fix that with the mid-season update so you don't have to do that anymore. If it works out in the end is yet to be seen.
They problem is zed, yasuo, katarina, vlad, generally every manaless midlaner.
Zed isn't really a problem because his waveclear is on a 20 second cooldown in which he has absolutely no pressure what so ever during that time.
Kat/Vlad will could be needing tuning yeah. Also I don't really understand why you think that mages WONT be able to clear waves. Their damage hasn't been reduced and these nerfs are a buff until lvl 5 or so. After lvl 5 most mages can afford their lost chapter or tear in which case they don't have mana issues anymore anyway. Plus you have manaflow band that gives you an extra 250 mana + bonus manaregen.
You still have enough mana. You are acting like they reduced the manapool to 150 or something.
Besides mages trademark is waveclear. Nerfing their primary job is very VERY stupid.
They are reducing the efficiency of it in the early game, you never have any mana roblems late game unless you are Karthus / Anivia / Xerath or something like that.
By reducing the efficiency early and with that the need to have waveclear opens up the lane for other champions which sounds like a good thing to me.
And you do know that assassins at mid have good winrate right? And i'm strongly against adcs going to solo lane. They are supposed to be weak thus needing a support to help them.
If assassins come out too strong then... we nerf... assassins? That isn't really a hard thing to do.
Jhin / Varus / Lucian mid have been strong picks in the past. GP also has one of the most shittiest early game there is and he is only played in solo lanes. It just means they play it to scale and not try to apply pressure early.
Which is a playstyle that has existed in League since the beginning
Nyarlathοtep7 votesMaking it less easy is a step in the right direction IMO.
No you got it wrong. I meant the answer is easy.
And Riot is trying to fix that with the mid-season update so you don't have to do that anymore. If it works out in the end is yet to be seen.
They should first deal with botlane as a whole, and then touch mages. Mages just waveclear so they can help botlane asap. Not their fault botlane dictates how the game will go.
Zed isn't really a problem because his waveclear is on a 20 second cooldown in which he has absolutely no pressure what so ever during that time.
He can still q non stop and push with no trouble whatsoever.
Also I don't really understand why you think that mages WONT be able to clear waves.
Because if these changes go through, late game mages will have to choose between using their mana to push a wave or teamfight. (clearing waves will take more time since they lower mana, they lower the ap that seraphs will give)
After lvl 5 most mages can afford their lost chapter or tear in which case they don't have mana issues anymore anyway.
Good luck doing so when your enemy will perma push and you struggle to farm under turret. Most mages spells deal low dmg on minions early on.
Plus you have manaflow band that gives you an extra 250 mana + bonus manaregen.
Hahaha, what a joke.
You still have enough mana. You are acting like they reduced the manapool to 150 or something.
facepalm with the changes to mana per level most mages lost 5017=850 > 2517=425. They buff in the base mana is next to nothing.
you never have any mana roblems late game unless you are Karthus / Anivia / Xerath or something like that.
So these champs have to decide whether teamfighting or waveclearing? oke got it.
By reducing the efficiency early and with that the need to have waveclear opens up the lane for other champions which sounds like a good thing to me.
Do you even know why mages and assassins are the most prevalent role in mid? Because they can (assassins) roam freely to other lanes and (mages) because they rely a lot more on level than the rest of the roles.
If assassins come out too strong then... we nerf... assassins?
Hahahaha. Good one.
GP also has one of the most shittiest early game there is and he is only played in solo lanes. It just means they play it to scale and not try to apply pressure early.
I dont recall bringing in gp. Though since we are talking about him, fk gp and his point and click q + klepto.
nelogis3 votesThey should first deal with botlane as a whole, and then touch mages. Mages just waveclear so they can help botlane asap. Not their fault botlane dictates how the game will go.
The sequence of these changes might be a topic to discuss yeah, maybe these changes are going to hit live with the marksmen update and are just on the PBE for testing just like LB revert has been on the PBE for like 4 patches?
He can still q non stop and push with no trouble whatsoever.
I don't really know what Zed you are playing against but his Q deals no damage early on to minions (only the first one hit takes reasonable damage)
Good luck doing so when your enemy will perma push and you struggle to farm under turret. Most mages spells deal low dmg on minions early on.
Every spell deals low damage early on? Until lvl 5 the change doesn't even take effect, until lvl 5 there is literally no change in your mana availability. It's even a straight up buff from levels 1-4
Hahaha, what a joke.
250 mana and bonus mana regen is a joke? Alright then.
facepalm with the changes to mana per level most mages lost 5017=850 > 2517=425. They buff in the base mana is next to nothing.
Aha, did you include the buff on the mana regen? Guessed so. 400 mana in the late game doesn't matter than much because you have your 1k mana tear item or ROA or Ludens, that is enough mana to reasonable use your spells.
Also, almost all mages get the blue in the late game.
So these champs have to decide whether teamfighting or waveclearing? oke got it.
No they don't they still can do both but running around with Karthus W up the whole time or forgetting to turn off Anivia R or randomly bombarding a bush with Xerath spells for 5min straight will let you go oom yes.
Thats what I mean with these champs.
Do you even know why mages and assassins are the most prevalent role in mid? Because they can (assassins) roam freely to other lanes and (mages) because they rely a lot more on level than the rest of the roles.
So are top laners and junglers. You still don't see any AD bruiser played mid. By this definition, Kled must the most broken mid laner there is.
I dont recall bringing in gp. Though since we are talking about him, fk gp and his point and click q + klepto.
This is called an example, it is used to describe/explain things. It would be retarted to explain why Varus could go mid with the Varus that can't go mid right now.
Also GP is half mana after using 3 Q's even with mana crystal starting item. Literally just let him Q you on early levels, start with dorans shield. It does no damage and if he is stupid he will fall for the bait and be oom around lvl 4 or 5.
Nyarlathοtep1 votesThe sequence of these changes might be a topic to discuss yeah, maybe these changes are going to hit live with the marksmen update and are just on the PBE for testing just like LB revert has been on the PBE for like 4 patches?
Has riot confirmed such thing? I mean will these mana changes come with the adc update?
I don't really know what Zed you are playing against but his Q deals no damage early on to minions (only the first one hit takes reasonable damage)
Well thats what my past experience tells me. What can i else say maybe he can lately. To be truthful since i ban zed whenever i go mid i really dont remember how a lane goes against him.
Every spell deals low damage early on?
Indeed but the thing is that most mages have their spells on bigger cd than assassins (usually). More spells more dmg more push.
Aha, did you include the buff on the mana regen? Guessed so
Not really. 0.4 mana per second is next to nothing.
400 mana in the late game doesn't matter than much because you have your 1k mana tear item or ROA or Ludens, that is enough mana to reasonable use your spells.
Not when im always casting spells in order to deal damage. I mean mages need multiple rotations in order to deal any sort of real damage to tanky opponents. Besides since they lower the overall mana on mage's, they will also lower the maximum ap in the game. So even more rotations in order to deal damage!
Also, almost all mages get the blue in the late game.
No role should ever require a temporary buff in order to function. I dont see adcs requiring red in order to deal damage so why should apc do?
No they don't they still can do both but running around with Karthus W up the whole time or forgetting to turn off Anivia R or randomly bombarding a bush with Xerath spells for 5min straight will let you go oom yes.
I suppose we are then playing a different version of the game because i dont see anybody being able to do it. Besides correct me if im wrong, why should mages have such a limiting factor as mana late game? The other roles dont have it, yet mages have it, why should they?
So are top laners and junglers. You still don't see any AD bruiser played mid.
Which top laners? Champs like riven or yasuo might rely more on gold than exp. On the other hand a darius might rely more on exp. The same applies to junglers too. Besides mages can only go mid safely because on general mages are immobile, so a short lane will help them more than a big like top or bot.
This is called an example, it is used to describe/explain things. It would be retarted to explain why Varus could go mid with the Varus that can't go mid right now.
Why the fk this took me more time to realize than it should? This is slightly concerning but w/e moving on!
Also GP is half mana after using 3 Q's even with mana crystal starting item. Literally just let him Q you on early levels, start with dorans shield. It does no damage and if he is stupid he will fall for the bait and be oom around lvl 4 or 5.
To be totally fair, gp has a lot better laning phase than most make him to have. He can farm safely if he is danger, he can be aggressive, he has cleanse that also heals, and he can deal damage from a long distance + global ulti.
Also yeah i know what will happen to gp if he just pokes you with his q, its just extremely tilting that he pokes and generates gold. Bonus tilt if he steals a sack of gold. Oh and this poke chunks hard after he gets sheen. And he sure as fk wont need to go b for a while. Especially true if he manages to steal a mana pot.
nelogis1 votesHas riot confirmed such thing? I mean will these mana changes come with the adc update?
They haven't confirmed that but what they have confirmed is that the marksmen update will take place in 8.10 / 8.11
So relatively soon.
Not when im always casting spells in order to deal damage. I mean mages need multiple rotations in order to deal any sort of real damage to tanky opponents. Besides since they lower the overall mana on mage's, they will also lower the maximum ap in the game. So even more rotations in order to deal damage!
Why is that? You mean because of that one tear item? That can be easily restored with just giving the tear item the Ap the mages lost (if that is needed of course)
And since they reduced the ability to spam spells they now can make it so the spells are more impactful in general. If mages need buffs after this it is going to be buffs to damage I'm guessing.
No role should ever require a temporary buff in order to function. I dont see adcs requiring red in order to deal damage so why should apc do?
They don't need the blue either, it just let's them spam their abilities like a mad-man and turn everything around their radius into a warzone.
They would run OOM if they don't have it AND continue to spam like a mad-man.
If they NEED to spam like a mad-man and still don't do enough then increasing the spells impact is the way to go so you don't need to spam anymore.
I suppose we are then playing a different version of the game because i dont see anybody being able to do it. Besides correct me if im wrong, why should mages have such a limiting factor as mana late game? The other roles dont have it, yet mages have it, why should they?
Because other classes are gated behind other things. For example you don't have to give much of a shit about survivability do you? Outside of aybe a Zhonyeas. Your range is really long, a Bruiser could say "Why do I have to go tanky to do less damage than the mage, have less range and pretty much have the same cc? Why do I have to be gated just for being short ranged?!"
Marksmen need protection otherwise they get blown up, mages don't need protection that much.
Everyone has their own problems they need to take care of and mages have mana.
Which top laners? Champs like riven or yasuo might rely more on gold than exp. On the other hand a darius might rely more on exp. The same applies to junglers too. Besides mages can only go mid safely because on general mages are immobile, so a short lane will help them more than a big like top or bot.
A lof of bruisers are XP dependant (Their base stats are the best in the entire game) so leveling up gives them huge advantages. Yasuo is more item/gold dependant yes because he was originally designed as a melee ADC in the bot lane.... didn't really work out that well.
These bruisers can't go mid because they would be sitting under their tower and get poked 24/7, they would never have any priority in lane, which is something very important in the early game.
To be totally fair, gp has a lot better laning phase than most make him to have. He can farm safely if he is danger, he can be aggressive, he has cleanse that also heals, and he can deal damage from a long distance + global ulti.
Also yeah i know what will happen to gp if he just pokes you with his q, its just extremely tilting that he pokes and generates gold. Bonus tilt if he steals a sack of gold. Oh and this poke chunks hard after he gets sheen. And he sure as fk wont need to go b for a while. Especially true if he manages to steal a mana pot
It might just be because I play him mid but his early is really attrocious. That heal costs 80mana, his primary spell costs 60mana until lvl 3, his barrels are unusable to go on the offensive until lvl 7.
Also in mid you want to take Comet / Aery or Electrolute. Taking Klepto/Grasp in mid is suicide.
He is cancer in the top lane, he is basically one of the reasons why I hope this change actually turns out well so he is no longer a top laner and can go mid lane again.
Nyarlathοtep1 votesWhy is that? You mean because of that one tear item? That can be easily restored with just giving the tear item the Ap the mages lost (if that is needed of course)
Well riot themselves said that with these changes they also hope they will increase item diversity, which is wrong. Every mage (that has mana that is) will just go seraph. You dont have to push it to pbe to understand that.
And since they reduced the ability to spam spells they now can make it so the spells are more impactful in general.
Like how? You might say that they are more valuable but not more impactful the damage is the same (if not less thanks to the less mana)
They don't need the blue either, it just let's them spam their abilities like a mad-man and turn everything around their radius into a warzone.
Late when, when everyone is full build. They are going to need it. 100%. They are going to always need the mana to deal dmg or waveclear.
For example you don't have to give much of a shit about survivability do you? Outside of aybe a Zhonyeas. Your range is really long, a Bruiser could say "Why do I have to go tanky to do less damage than the mage, have less range and pretty much have the same cc? Why do I have to be gated just for being short ranged?!"
I wouldnt call this a gating. Thats inherit to his kit. And no, no matter how much you try, you wont find any gating to the rest of the roles. Minus maybe the support. Besides again bruisers is a wide term. Bruisers, aka fighters have 2 subclasses. Divers and juggies. Divers have damage coupled with mobility to engage. They however cant get out when they engage. Juggies have a shittons of dmg, shittons of base stats on general but no mobility whatsoever. Those btw are called strength and weaknesses. Every class have them.
Marksmen need protection otherwise they get blown up, mages don't need protection that much.
Thats false. Mages need protection too, if not more (though it depends on the mage, but this applies to adcs too). For example both vayne and ryze need almost no protection. Actually almost every hyper carry (either ap or ad) need little to no protection. On the other hand, a lux and a ashe are going to need heavy protection to do their job. BUT, adc compared to mages (and apc on general)(usually) can fend for themselves better than apcs. Mages on general have skillshots or other telegraphed spells, giving the enemy the possibility to play around them and thus kill them. Adc, however have no such things. Their most dangerous weapon in their arsenal is impossible to evade and scales with 100% of bonus ad. The only real way to play around them is to not get close.
Everyone has their own problems they need to take care of and mages have mana
Indeed, but no other role has such a gamebreaking problem as mages with mana. I mean at least the other roles dont get about mana or hp. (tanks and adcs have access to hp sustain, supports have usually heals or shields, adcs for some reason have access also to mana regen through reaver, mages have nothing)
A lof of bruisers are XP dependant (Their base stats are the best in the entire game) so leveling up gives them huge advantages.
Thus why they in a solo lane, top.
These bruisers can't go mid because they would be sitting under their tower and get poked 24/7, they would never have any priority in lane, which is something very important in the early game.
True, but this would only apply only if their enemy was a mage. Bruisers would be happy to face a lets say zed or talon.
nelogis1 votesWell riot themselves said that with these changes they also hope they will increase item diversity, which is wrong. Every mage (that has mana that is) will just go seraph. You dont have to push it to pbe to understand that.
Did they? Can you link it for me please? I mean Ludens and GLP-800 got buffed, both are mana items.
Like how? You might say that they are more valuable but not more impactful the damage is the same (if not less thanks to the less mana)
They can make it in a sense that it is not made yet. If you double the cost of a spell but also double the impact (let's say double damage), then good players get rewarded for hitting spells and bad players get punished harder for missing them.
Thats what I mean with, they can now increase the impact of spells because JUST increasing them makes mages broken.
Late when, when everyone is full build. They are going to need it. 100%. They are going to always need the mana to deal dmg or waveclear.
Why do you think that? Why do you think that when the absolute late game hits that you use spells until oom and never back while doing so?
I play Swain a lot (a relatively mana-hungry champ) and I never manage to go OOM in the late game with just a simple ROA and Manaflow band. It doesn't matter if you take 400 mana off of him, I'm still miles ahead from running OOM.
I wouldnt call this a gating. Thats inherit to his kit. And no, no matter how much you try, you wont find any gating to the rest of the roles. Minus maybe the support. Besides again bruisers is a wide term. Bruisers, aka fighters have 2 subclasses. Divers and juggies. Divers have damage coupled with mobility to engage. They however cant get out when they engage. Juggies have a shittons of dmg, shittons of base stats on general but no mobility whatsoever. Those btw are called strength and weaknesses. Every class have them.
Well then mana issues are inherit to mages kits? That mana is a weakness of mages. I agree that mages get punished the most when they run out of mana.
Thats false. Mages need protection too, if not more (though it depends on the mage, but this applies to adcs too). For example both vayne and ryze need almost no protection. Actually almost every hyper carry (either ap or ad) need little to no protection. On the other hand, a lux and a ashe are going to need heavy protection to do their job. BUT, adc compared to mages (and apc on general)(usually) can fend for themselves better than apcs. Mages on general have skillshots or other telegraphed spells, giving the enemy the possibility to play around them and thus kill them. Adc, however have no such things. Their most dangerous weapon in their arsenal is impossible to evade and scales with 100% of bonus ad. The only real way to play around them is to not get close.
No they definetly don't need more protection. Vayne should never be viable until there is a solution to stealth so... yeah.
A Lux has a shield, a snare and a slow in her kit. Ashe has a slow and a short stun (when casted point blank)
Lux has bigger range than Ashe, Lux doesn't need as much protection as Ashe. Though I agree that Lux can't do her job that well when there is no frontline.
There are only a handful ADCs that can watch over themselfes and these are the exact ADCs that are frustrating to play against.
Twitch is just cancer
Every other ADC is basically dead if something gets to them without peel.
Every other APC has either a range advantage / self-peel / cc in their kit. Hitting a Morgana Q point blank isn't something telegraphed or outplayable. Using that Q on a ranged target though is going on the offensive, in which case you don't need to protect yourself but rather un-alive the enemy.
The most dangerous weapon in the ADCs kit however doesn't have any other additional effects other than damage (too much damage as of right now).
Indeed, but no other role has such a gamebreaking problem as mages with mana. I mean at least the other roles dont get about mana or hp. (tanks and adcs have access to hp sustain, supports have usually heals or shields, adcs for some reason have access also to mana regen through reaver, mages have nothing)
Yeah they get punished the most, though not including mana items to overcome that problem is silly especially when you mention it for ADCs. Ezreal has mana issues too, ER ADCs aren't going ER because they like the blue color of the item, it means they have mana issues too but mages get punished the most for running OOM, how to fix that without letting them spam 24/7? I don't know.
True, but this would only apply only if their enemy was a mage. Bruisers would be happy to face a lets say zed or talon.
Yeah true.
Did they? Can you link it for me please? I mean Ludens and GLP-800 got buffed, both are mana items.
https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/client-new-features-feedback/Yj1lE6To-mana-changes-coming-to-pbe-today THOUGH i didnt find so i suppose that i confused it with the d ring. (they want to increase starter item diversity) As for their buffs, i dont think glp got a buff, and while the reduce cost of ludens is nice, i dont think anyone would want to still buy it as a 1st item. Seraph its just way better at dealing with mana problems.
If you double the cost of a spell but also double the impact (let's say double damage), then good players get rewarded for hitting spells and bad players get punished harder for missing them.
Im all up for it in that case. But i doubt they would do such a thing.
Why do you think that? Why do you think that when the absolute late game hits that you use spells until oom and never back while doing so?
I dont mind going back to regen mana and hp. I do mind it though when the enemy can go do objectives (or force fights) when i have already recalled. I mean (again) the other roles dont need to spent time to go back to regen mana or hp ( yes the do have to spec for it but they can nevertheless do it). It just seems stupid to my eyes. Adcs have access to draintanking and regening mana if they want. Tanks have access to warmongs. Mages have neither despite relying on mana to do quite literally anything. And i wouldnt even mind if the damn presence of mind was everywhere BUT presicion.
I play Swain a lot (a relatively mana-hungry champ) and I never manage to go OOM in the late game with just a simple ROA and Manaflow band.
You forgot the other passive of roa. Each time you take damage you gain mana. This helps at delaying going oom. Roa users arent going to be affected by the mana changes. But the rest will surely feel it.
Well then mana issues are inherit to mages kits? That mana is a weakness of mages.
Indeed, BUT we should have ways to overcome it. Especially late game. This is also true for pretty much every other role. Adcs, for example, are supposed to be prone to burst. Yet these assholes 
make them nigh unburstable. And god helps you if you are an ap assassin trying to assassinate an adc that has maws. What i want to say is that late game riot wants (or at least the other roles) roles to have a way to almost nullify their weaknesses (at a certain point).
No they definetly don't need more protection.
Oh but they do. Here let me prove it to you
A Lux has a shield, a snare and a slow in her kit.
Lets take this scenario (in this scenario there are no summs), lux is running away from lets say a zed (build is rather irrelevant lets just say that zed can kill her even if she has zhonyas since it will only delay her death) zed can pretty much evade her whole kit with 2 different skills. The moment zed reaches her with his ulti, lux is dead. Zed can also use his w to close the distance. Though lux might survive his initial burst since she does have a shield. Though the snare wont stop him for long enough ( or at least until lux is in a safe place) and the slow does nothing to blinks. Lux can try to burst him down but chances are that she will not kill him. Zed also has the advantage of being able to aa her to death.
Ashe will also die in this scenario UNLESS she builts specifically to deal with zed. ( G.a, death dancer, phantom dancer, tabi, ie, yeah i know terrible build but this way she can survive and kill zed, now that i think of it i think g.a. is a bit too much) Lux or any mage for that matter cant build something similar. (yes yes i know this wont ever happen in a real game, im just trying to prove that adc on a general level can fend for themselves better than mage's. Mages main source of damage can be evaded thus making the act of defending themselves a lot more difficult)
Every other APC has either a range advantage / self-peel / cc in their kit. Hitting a Morgana Q point blank isn't something telegraphed or outplayable.
The problem with range advantage is that it cost reliability. Most of the times the cost is more than it is worth. For example, my main xerath's e rewards hitting it at max range. Its difficult to hit it (im going to be honest with you idc what you personally believe about skillshots you cant hit them unless the enemy doesnt respond in time), most of the times my e hits someone because they run quite literally on it. The other times i land it is when they are under effects of movement impairment.(also quite irrelevant, do you think its worth for a spell to have impressive range, if the delay is so big that its almost unlikely to be usable in a real game? Im asking that because xerath's ulti at max range is nigh impossible to hit the time it takes to land is huge even with hard cc is difficult ) Also not everyone has the cc potency of morgana's snare.
Using that Q on a ranged target though is going on the offensive, in which case you don't need to protect yourself but rather un-alive the enemy.
What if that target is coming to kill you? Im pretty sure that counts as a way to defend yourself.
The most dangerous weapon in the ADCs kit however doesn't have any other additional effects other than damage (too much damage as of right now).
If only this was true. Xayah, aoe snare and strong zoning capabilities. Caitlyn, multiple snare traps and quite pontent zoning capabilities especially when defending a siege or when sieging. Varus, aoe slow, aoe gw and aoe(?) snare if the enemies are close to each other. Jinx, strong single target slow along with a kinda aoe snare traps that also knock down dashes. Miss fortune, surprisingly good aoe slow along with some terrifying zoning capabilities. Ashe, strong slows, awesome scouting capabilities and an global ulti that stuns and knockdowns dashes. Sivir, aoe speed buff for engages or disengages. Kog maw, decent scouting capabilities along with a decent aoe slow. Twitch, an a deceptively aoe slow (which is also what i personally hate about twitch i left the damn area let me move ffs). Kalista, strong scouting capabilities good objective control and an aoe knock up.
The days when adcs where only about dmg have passed. Nowadays adcs have enough utility to lower a bit their damage. ( minus ashe her damage is fine)
nelogis1 voteshttps://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/client-new-features-feedback/Yj1lE6To-mana-changes-coming-to-pbe-today THOUGH i didnt find so i suppose that i confused it with the d ring. (they want to increase starter item diversity) As for their buffs, i dont think glp got a buff, and while the reduce cost of ludens is nice, i dont think anyone would want to still buy it as a 1st item. Seraph its just way better at dealing with mana problems.
70 downvotes lol fucking hell. Meh you never know, who would have thought Guinsoos Jhin would become a thing right?
I dont mind going back to regen mana and hp. I do mind it though when the enemy can go do objectives (or force fights) when i have already recalled. I mean (again) the other roles dont need to spent time to go back to regen mana or hp ( yes the do have to spec for it but they can nevertheless do it). It just seems stupid to my eyes. Adcs have access to draintanking and regening mana if they want. Tanks have access to warmongs. Mages have neither despite relying on mana to do quite literally anything. And i wouldnt even mind if the damn presence of mind was everywhere BUT presicion.
No what I meant was, why do you think you would run OOM in the first place? In the absolute late game only teamfights happen, these last like 10 seconds and maybe a little poking in the beginning for like 30 seconds.
The worst time to be a mage would be mid game, where your tear isn't fully stacked. I think that would be the time where you would feel that but it would be like -200 to -300 mana. That is 2 - 3 spells you can't cast (roughly). I can't say if that will be noticeable or not to be honest.
Indeed, BUT we should have ways to overcome it. Especially late game. This is also true for pretty much every other role. Adcs, for example, are supposed to be prone to burst. Yet these assholes make them nigh unburstable. And god helps you if you are an ap assassin trying to assassinate an adc that has maws. What i want to say is that late game riot wants (or at least the other roles) roles to have a way to almost nullify their weaknesses (at a certain point).
To be honest.
Will make you a pretty tanky guy with insane damage output (though you need to scale a lot).
I know this isn't a typical mage build, just replace 1 or 2 items with a rabba or zhonyeas or void staff.
That's still pretty tanky I would say BUT I agree that making GA an AD item was a bullshit decision.
To come back to the ADCs itemization.
are the main items that make the ADC tankier.
Let's ignore DD because only like Kai'sa and Draven are getting that.
GA should be reverted IMO, thats not a healthy item in it's current state.
So we have BT and PD.
Riot said that they want to increase the price of PD so there is that.
That leaves us with BT, I think this item will need tuning when it becomes the go-to protection item (mainly reducing the shield). Because that is basically a targons shield and a permanent shield for ADCs is huge value.
Lets take this scenario (in this scenario there are no summs), lux is running away from lets say a zed (build is rather irrelevant lets just say that zed can kill her even if she has zhonyas since it will only delay her death) zed can pretty much evade her whole kit with 2 different skills. The moment zed reaches her with his ulti, lux is dead. Zed can also use his w to close the distance. Though lux might survive his initial burst since she does have a shield. Though the snare wont stop him for long enough ( or at least until lux is in a safe place) and the slow does nothing to blinks. Lux can try to burst him down but chances are that she will not kill him. Zed also has the advantage of being able to aa her to death.
Ashe will also die in this scenario UNLESS she builts specifically to deal with zed. ( G.a, death dancer, phantom dancer, tabi, ie, yeah i know terrible build but this way she can survive and kill zed, now that i think of it i think g.a. is a bit too much) Lux or any mage for that matter cant build something similar. (yes yes i know this wont ever happen in a real game, im just trying to prove that adc on a general level can fend for themselves better than mage's. Mages main source of damage can be evaded thus making the act of defending themselves a lot more difficult)
That scenario is rather... meh. Zed is a counter to immobile long range champs. His job is to kill Lux. Also that Ashe is beyond dead, even with GA. Zed can land a rather easy double Q or even a triple Q on an Ashe, if both are lvl 18 and full build, Zed would rip her health bar apart 3 times.
Rather imagine this scenario, Darius charging Lux with righteous glory, Lux throwing E to slow him down and stop his movementspeed buff, then throw out snare while he is slowed to secure the disengage.
If it gets spicy she can hold onto that snare until Darius hooks her, she shields and throws out snare to disengage, slow gets up again, trap Darius in slow zone to generate more distance.
Ashe has a stupid slow and like a 1 second stun on an ult.
What I want to say is, mages generally have a bigger puffer zone to stop incoming danger than ADCs and generally more tools to do so, thats why I would say they need less protection than ADCs.
The problem with range advantage is that it cost reliability. Most of the times the cost is more than it is worth. For example, my main xerath's e rewards hitting it at max range. Its difficult to hit it (im going to be honest with you idc what you personally believe about skillshots you cant hit them unless the enemy doesnt respond in time), most of the times my e hits someone because they run quite literally on it. The other times i land it is when they are under effects of movement impairment.(also quite irrelevant, do you think its worth for a spell to have impressive range, if the delay is so big that its almost unlikely to be usable in a real game? Im asking that because xerath's ulti at max range is nigh impossible to hit the time it takes to land is huge even with hard cc is difficult ) Also not everyone has the cc potency of morgana's snare.
It is hard to hit max range E yes but your puffer zone is 1100 units. Your "safety" in that sense is that puffer zone. People are in danger in a range of 1100 units around you, they have to care when approaching you (unless they are a tank but thats another problem). That zone is the place where your safety lies, giving it up means your safety drops to nigh zero (since Xerath stun is like one of the best designed stuns in the game, good for range so synergizing with your kit and at the same time rewarding for the opponent if he manages to get close to you). Vel'Koz has the same problems, so does Ziggs.
They ability to protect themselfes lies in the huge range they become a threat to enemies. ADCs don't have that, if people get in the danger zone of Sivir then they are basically in her face.
If only this was true. Xayah, aoe snare and strong zoning capabilities. Caitlyn, multiple snare traps and quite pontent zoning capabilities especially when defending a siege or when sieging. Varus, aoe slow, aoe gw and aoe(?) snare if the enemies are close to each other. Jinx, strong single target slow along with a kinda aoe snare traps that also knock down dashes. Miss fortune, surprisingly good aoe slow along with some terrifying zoning capabilities. Ashe, strong slows, awesome scouting capabilities and an global ulti that stuns and knockdowns dashes. Sivir, aoe speed buff for engages or disengages. Kog maw, decent scouting capabilities along with a decent aoe slow. Twitch, an a deceptively aoe slow (which is also what i personally hate about twitch i left the damn area let me move ffs). Kalista, strong scouting capabilities good objective control and an aoe knock up.
The days when adcs where only about dmg have passed. Nowadays adcs have enough utility to lower a bit their damage. ( minus ashe her damage is fine)
Xayah is frustrating to play against because of that and her ult, she should never be left viable but yeah.... Riot. Yeah but that is Caitlyns kit, not her auto attacks, she can do that yes but not just through usage of only auto attacks. Also again that is Varuss whole kit. Same with Jinx (she has AOE autos that is an additional effect), MF, Kog, Ashe (slow on autos is something additional) Kalista is cancer, Riot at least knows that and she is left unviable.
You have to know that mages can use their kits in a more in-depth way. You can force opponents into unfavorible situations with Xeraths spells. In trying to dodge them the enemy then walks into other problems.
I do agree thought that ADCs tend to do... a little too much lately.
Sorry but an ADC get's countered by assassins, she shouldn't be an assassin.
Meh you never know, who would have thought Guinsoos Jhin would become a thing right?
Ikr
To be honest.
Eh to be truthful i dont like building hp when im something like swain (aka in the frontlines). I feel like im buying stats that i shouldnt buy in the first place.
Let's ignore DD because only like Kai'sa and Draven are getting that.
Thats not a reason to ignore it. It feels like shit to try to deal dmg to them, only to see them have this shitty ass motherf item. Btw do you know why kaisa builds dd? Is it because she has in her kit a shield?
That scenario is rather... meh. Zed is a counter to immobile long range champs. His job is to kill Lux. Also that Ashe is beyond dead, even with GA. Zed can land a rather easy double Q or even a triple Q on an Ashe, if both are lvl 18 and full build, Zed would rip her health bar apart 3 times.
Dont underestimate the cancer of DD and draintanking. I've seen countless times an adc just standing still only to drain tank everything.
Rather imagine this scenario, Darius charging Lux with righteous glory, Lux throwing E to slow him down and stop his movementspeed buff, then throw out snare while he is slowed to secure the disengage.
The reason i picked someone like zed and not darius was because while darius can avoid lux's spells he cant reach her without burning flash.
Your "safety" in that sense is that puffer zone. People are in danger in a range of 1100 units around you, they have to care when approaching you (unless they are a tank but thats another problem).
Yeah about that. Well it doesnt take any kind of special training to avoid xerath's kit. This danger of 1100 is most of the times a funny farce. The only real "dangerous" spell is his w which even that can be evaded.
That zone is the place where your safety lies, giving it up means your safety drops to nigh zero (since Xerath stun is like one of the best designed stuns in the game, good for range so synergizing with your kit and at the same time rewarding for the opponent if he manages to get close to you).
While his stun design is good, its kinda useless in the current environment, where all other cc have a duration that is irrelevant with the range. Besides its useless on melee range. 0.5 second is hardly anything. Even knock ups have bigger duration and they cant be lowered.
Vel'Koz has the same problems, so does Ziggs.
Not really. Vel koz is surprisingly good at kiting thx to his q and e.His e btw is also knock up that lasts 0.75 second. As for ziggs he has his w which is knock up/back for both him and his enemies, one the best (in my opinion) peel abilities in the game.
ADCs don't have that, if people get in the danger zone of Sivir then they are basically in her face.
Like i said before, mages have bigger range but way less agency. Their enemies can literally walk out of their spells like its nothing. On the other hand, you are within adcs aa range? Prepare for a barrage of undodgable hits. And hell the range isnt something small. 550 isnt something to laugh about.
Yeah but that is Caitlyns kit, not her auto attacks, she can do that yes but not just through usage of only auto attacks.
Oh when you said additional effects i thought you were talking about utility. So for what additional effects you are talking about? You mean like debuffs and stuff? Because those do count like utility.
You have to know that mages can use their kits in a more in-depth way. You can force opponents into unfavorible situations with Xeraths spells. In trying to dodge them the enemy then walks into other problems.
Yeah, you know that well how can i say it. I pick xerath because i like mages, not shepherds. I dont play mages so i can herd the sheep. I pick mages because i like mages. I like cool effects and stuff. And i like seeing these cool effects deal damage. I dont like them missing. I dont like doing stuff that are uncarry. Im sorry but if i were to do uncarry stuff i would pick a support not an apc.
Votable Jester3 votes400 mana in the late game doesn't matter than much because you have your 1k mana tear item or ROA or Ludens, that is enough mana to reasonable use your spells.
Are you fucking kidding me? 400 mana doesn't matter in the late game? That's almost as much mana as you get on a 
. That fucking matters dude.
nelogis1 votesthing is, that is lvl 18. At lvl 18 most people are almost full build. At that stage of the game, there is only teamfights happening. You shouldn't roam around all alone as a mage to poke people., no you stick with your team, locate the enemy, then poke the enemy for like 30 seconds and teamfight for like 10 seconds.
Thats 40 seconds of action, no mage should ever run OOM while using his spells reasonably in 40 seconds.
So in the late game, it really doesn't matter that much.
The worst time to be a mage would be mid game, where your tear isn't fully stacked. I think that would be the time where you would feel that but it would be like -200 to -300 mana. That is 2 - 3 spells you can't cast (roughly). I can't say if that will be noticeable or not to be honest.
Votable Jester2 votesEven at earlier levels, 300 mana for instance also matters.
Also mages have to clear waves a lot of the time, and not every mage buys tear right now (though perhaps that's going to change).
Yay, changed from Morellonomicon on every mage to Archangel's on every mage. What a big step forward.
Votable Jester1 votesYou're forgetting about the changes to Doran's Ring.
Sun Wu Ryuumoku4 votesIn what world are mages problematic right now?
Spamming ability mindlessly is an issue. If you missing last patches, Riot seems to address every roles/lanes/issues.
Why do you keep nerfing mages but let ADCs dominate? Where's the logic?
Stop with this BS, its totaly unrelated. if something need to be nerfed/changed, they need to. Imagine if we did same when they nerfed 
.
Its the begin of the new cycle, and repertoir already say they plan to changes adc in 8.8-8.10.
Seems like using brain/skills isn't well received here*[sg-lulu]*
Blåbæret4 votes[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FkE6kRER,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-04-18T12:14:27.426+0000)
Spamming ability mindlessly is an issue.
Yah man, but ADCs are the most widely complained about issue in this game; why are mages being worked on before them?
Doozku1 votesMaybe Riot has been working on big ADC changes for a while but wants to wait until mid season because they are big changes? Meanwhile these could be smaller changes that they worked on and finished sooner?
GayFluffyUnicorn2 votesIn those 2 seasons of adcs being overpowered they could have just nerfed them. Or atleast in the six months of this season+preseason they could have nerfed them. Or atleast NOT buffed them. Y'know in the middle of an adc meta riot manages to slip in buffs to ADCs. Don't care about their fuckin midseason changes they end up awful and shitty anyways. ADCs will dominate the meta i call it here. Will be another s6 of ADCs being played top mid jungle support. This fuckin bias and riot shoving their "vision on how league is meant to be played" down our throats is the very reason why people are so fuckin upset.
Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-04-17T19:31:08.573+0000)
Sure. Gonna talk more problem statement stuff than exact details but those'll be coming in the next couple weeks.
One thing to note is that we're doing less of a giant midseason release this year. Changes will come over a couple of patches, and it'll be smaller scope - there's no Runes Reforged or Elemental Drakes in this one. The changes that are there are likely to be significant, though. Likely to see changes aimed directly at Marksmen on 8.10 or 8.11, possibly both depending when work is finished, and then possible (but definitely not guaranteed) Fighter work in a follow-up patch.
We're looking at Marksmen with a few values:
- The mere fact of getting to two items shouldn't guarantee they're the most valuable champion on a team, but getting ahead should matter a lot.
- They need to be able to buy early items that ensure they can be fun, have responsive inputs (shoot-step-shoot is pretty unpleasant with no AS), and contribute appropriately. I take that to mean they need to get Attack Speed, potentially movement speed (though less required), and at least some punchy, powerful hits.
- We're going to be looking for ways to play up the difference between a snowballing champion and one that's merely on the curve - that includes Fighters, Assassins, ADCs, and Mages (though we think Mages are actually more correct than the other three - if they're behind, they provide primarily utility, if they're ahead they can be great damage carries). We'll especially value any time we can hit multiple of these classes with shared items - e.g. items that help both Fighters and Marksmen, or Assassins and Marksmen.
- Some opportunistic stuff - e.g. reducing the burst damage of very late game Infinity Edge builds to other squishy champions.
This will probably mean significant reworks to Infinity Edge, Essence Reaver, Last Whisper/Lord Dominik's Regards, cost changes to things like Phantom Dancer, possibly a new item, likely buffs to some underperforming items, plus some ADC base stat changes.
AirKingNeo3 votes[deleted]
Sun Wu Ryuumoku4 voteslmao you have audacity to bring stat here*[sg-miss-fortune]*
MuffledGarbage3 votesIt's cause ADCs aren't having fun when playing against Mages so Riot wants to make sure ADCs have no counters
Zed genius2 votesWhy is Riot on a nerf-mages campaign?
what campaign are you talking about? It's one patch of nerfs with compensation buffs to every single champion specifically, without even touching their damage numbers. You also conveniently didn't mention the strength they got with the AP items rework
SnugglePuggle944 votesFrom what I've read, those aren't compensation buffs really at all, in fact they hurt the mages even worse.
Zed genius2 votesmore mana regen and a higher mana pool level 1, with half the mana growth per level, how is that making mages even worth? Why are people so delusional lmao
Dark Nephthys1 votes[{quoted}](name=Zed genius,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FkE6kRER,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2018-04-18T17:13:14.918+0000)
more mana regen and a higher mana pool level 1, with half the mana growth per level, how is that making mages even worth? Why are people so delusional lmao
Because it's only a buff to mages for the first like 3-4 levels, and then after that its a huge reduction of mana per level. Most mages lose 300-400 mana by level 18 and now Mages will have the lowest mana pools in the game.
Bisaknosp2 voteslcs
Death by Glamour1 votesI think they feared a return of stalling out games like xerath and ziggs did in s4/5
Blåbæret12 votes[{quoted}](name=Death by Glamour,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FkE6kRER,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-04-18T00:15:58.726+0000)
I think they feared a return of stalling out games like xerath and ziggs did in s4/5
But it's OK for ADCs to oneshot minion waves with IE + Shiv + targeted right-click spam?
woodvsmurph12 votesyou mean 1-shot BARON minion waves. Meanwhile mages and ap bruisers can spend minutes trying to clear one wave. Or banner can screw over ap champs... I'm waiting for a version of banner that makes a minion take 95% reduced PHYSICAL damage - not able to be placed on a minion with the currrent version banner of course.
I'm waiting for shiv to get the same treatment as archangels - reduced damage until it's fully stacked/reduced aoe dmg from shiv proc until 100% crit.
But wait, that would be hurting the only damage dealers left in the game capable of killing more than one enemy in a fight. Gasp.
DW Diana1 votesWelcome to the assassin meta, where kill pressure level 3 is your only hope. But which ap champions can match up?!?!?!? Enter Leblanc & Ahri
ChisatoShirasagi1 votesMages are in no way overpowered rn, but they sure are annoying to deal with as an assassin main (looking at you Orianna mains)
