What's karma even supposed to do?

CaptainAntiHeroz·Jul 29, 2018·4 votes·5,189 views

So many champions do what you do better than you, so what was karma intended to do exactly?

36 Comments

Beatrice fallsJul 29, 201813 votes

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CaptainAntiHerozJul 29, 20183 votes

I got m7 tokens for her and could upgrade them but then I thought, but what does this prove? I can cc really well? No that's not it .... I can ks really well? But I already have m7 pyke.... I can shield- that's not something to brag about... I guess I'll upgrade it for diversity

Pisces StarChildJul 30, 20181 votes

LOL! Have an upvote from me :)

Witch of BabylonJul 30, 20184 votes

She was originally a poke support that transitioned into a shield bot late game. Now she does literally neither of those things.

IxtaliKingJul 30, 20182 votes

Well... that's what she became after patch 6.6.

MisterShamelessJul 30, 20181 votes

Originally? What. When did you start playing?

Witch of BabylonJul 30, 20181 votes

I'm talking about New Karma

MisterShamelessJul 31, 20181 votes

As mentioned by IceBornKing and SilverSquid, ever since patch 6.6, Riot's been forcing her way of playstyle. Before and after her rework in season 3, she was a battle mage the entire game while also being support her team the entire match.

SilverSquidJul 30, 20185 votes

No, she used to be a battlemage like Ryze, Swain and Lissandra (Season 1), got reworked into a supportmage like Orianna, Lux and Morgana (Season 3), and every update since then pretended she is like Janna, Lulu and Sona (Season 5).

She has been a poke support that turns into a shieldbot lategame ever since. But they now nerfed her poking because it was too good at wavecearing (not even that good at poking), and nerfed her shielding, since the shieldmeta got boring.

Yes, she has become a nothing, since they insist on removing stuff from her kit, killing her themes (karmic, fanblades, duality), killing unique gameplay (shieldbomb, ally tether, lvl6 abilities) and then just put it onto other champions (Ivern, Taric, Jayce). She feels like Riot's scrapyard at this point.

But then again, there's hope; they are working on her new lore and for the first time in years, a person is working on her, that seems to care about what she truly is...

jocomotionJul 29, 20182 votes

Uhhhhhhh

koshkyraJul 30, 20182 votes

Shes good at everything its just that this high damage meta isnt for her.

SilverSquidJul 30, 20182 votes

Old Karma was great at baiting, catching people by surprise, outwitting them. It was great that she was so underplayed, because that's what you could abuse. It also kinda sucked, because your teammates didn't quite get what her tether did... Reworked Karma wasn't defined by her power, but - again - her choices. Her mantra gave her great flexibility in a fight, the decision to shield, heal or damage, when given the opportunity. She never had the greatest hammer in the tooldbox, but the greatest toolbox.

Ever since season 5 she seems a bit... off. Her mantra isn't a choice anymore, but rather the consequence of the build/lane you chose and since her shielding was buffed way too much, her mid and top gameplay suffered from the powershift. She was basically all shields a few patches ago... and then they nerfed THAT too. So yeah, she used to be a jack of all trade, that got her power shifted to one single ability, which they then nerfed.

Great thinking, Riot.

But she is getting a small rework in the near future, maybe she is making more sense then? The person working on her seems somewhat promising, and the reworked lore they released on her is also way better already.

There is hope, I guess.

PopcornBunniJul 31, 20182 votes

Do all those things together that no one else can in combination

Tahminatrix Jul 29, 20181 votes

Everything.

CaptainAntiHerozJul 29, 20183 votes

I feel like this calls for a more cryptic answer: "Everything... And nothing at all" #mind blowing realization

Pisces StarChildJul 30, 20181 votes

Well she was at some point the go-to engage/disengage support not to mention one that boasted the biggest shield in the game (when mantra-ed). Sadly she got hit with nerfs after she crowded out other support picks during her prime. Now that her numbers are somewhat in a balanced state and that Riot continues to hurt her through direct or indirect nerfs, the lack of a unique and game-changing tool at her disposal, a shortcoming she always had but was manageable and could be ignored due to her incredible base and ratio numbers back then, is once again a big issue that we're back to the drawing board with her. After all, there's only so much you could do with her kit. Other supports do offer similar utility but at least they have a game-changing ult or a reset ability if all else fail.

SlampieceHawkeJul 30, 20181 votes

Karma is still very relevant... should anyone of ya be thinking she isn't. Just won with her. Been playing her as support since like S3... with success.

The key is knowing when to mantra your q vs your e... mostly never used for w. Like... if enemy team is clumped (w/o a pog yasuo windwall to stop it) i'ma try and hit that mantra q... but if not, then i'm holding it for e instead. HUGE decision maker that leverages teamfights.

CaptainAntiHerozJul 31, 20181 votes

I went 6/1/22 with her the other day and got my m7 But the problem is her relevance is belittled by the comparative relevance of whatever you're fighting

HochelagaJul 30, 20181 votes

She's a good support, you want to compare her to other support champions ?

She excels at holding a lane
She can duel champions better than any support
She has the highest shield value
She has the highest root duration and can even do it quicker than Morgana's bind

You want to compare Karma to other mid champions ?

She has the quickest ultimate recharge
She's the only mid champion that has a Heal, shield,
Even when behind, she can still be relevant
She's does well in every situations.

CaptainAntiHerozJul 31, 20182 votes

Nonono I'm not asking for a comparison I have m7 on her and 6 other supports/Leona I'm very aware of how her abilities work, I just fail to see why she would be picked over a different champion in the same position unless you need literally everything

HochelagaAug 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Nonono I'm not asking for a comparison I have m7 on her and 6 other supports/Leona I'm very aware of how her abilities work, I just fail to see why she would be picked over a different champion in the same position unless you need literally everything

Why, because some champion synergizes better with some other. I can safely say that Karma goes better with Caitlyn than most support. As she lacks dmg in early-mid game, Karma can help her out while also providing a good variety of supporting skills such as a speed shield, slow and root. They also poke well better.

CaptainAntiHerozJul 31, 20181 votes

Also Morgana had a 3 second root which is immediate upon hitting it, and can follow that up with a nearly garunteed stun Karma root heals karma and MIGHT root them the heal is great but re or rq tends to be much more useful in team fights She doesn't do well in every situation, all Ins with immediate cc clap her Sona and Nami can both be played mid and both have easier to work with hard cc As a support being behind tends to mean it's over for the karma, unless they give her assists or let her get some farm for an item Duel better than any support?! Pyke Lulu Nami Sona Bard Quickest ult recharge? If you utilize your Passive maybe, but wild growth has incredibly low CD same with death from below and blitz and the box Pyke, thresh, Leona, blitz, Lulu, rakan, Nami, Janna, bard all have really decent Lane holding potential

So while I love to play karma, because "Karma always comes around" it's kind of pointless

HochelagaAug 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Also Morgana had a 3 second root which is immediate upon hitting it, and can follow that up with a nearly garunteed stun Karma root heals karma and MIGHT root them the heal is great but re or rq tends to be much more useful in team fights She doesn't do well in every situation, all Ins with immediate cc clap her Sona and Nami can both be played mid and both have easier to work with hard cc As a support being behind tends to mean it's over for the karma, unless they give her assists or let her get some farm for an item Duel better than any support?! Quickest ult recharge? If you utilize your Passive maybe, but wild growth has incredibly low CD same with death from below and blitz and the box Pyke, thresh, Leona, blitz, Lulu, rakan, Nami, Janna, bard all have really decent Lane holding potential

So while I love to play karma, because "Karma always comes around" it's kind of pointless

Contrary to Morgana, Karma's bind is a Target spell compared to Morgana. She has a much more greater success of landing her root than Morgana. On top of that, she can get back a great chunk of healh.

She is by far the most versatile support champion and that's my opinion. No other support can switch as quickly as Karma when the game is changing pace. Need more dmg? Just get Athene. Need more supporting ? Get Crucible or Locket. Unlike Bard that exclusively gets electrocute or a Lulu with redemption, Karma still can be relevant in dmg after getting support item.

Also, yes I still get my opinion on saying that Karma is the best dueling supporter. I'm talking about bringing an ennemy from 100% to 0% without help from anyone. Contrary to what you build on support, sometime it's just simply impossible to duel a champion. I.e. if you get exclusive support item, you won't deal as much dmg. Karma, still can kill someone.

Also, I think i've missed my word. I wanted to say that Karma excels at holding a lane when creeps are pushing. I don't see a Sona, lulu or even pyke holding lane against a huge wave of super minions. In fact, none of the champions you listed earlier can push back a lane with ease.

CaptainAntiHerozAug 3, 20181 votes

Pyke holds lane very VERY well Also karma has a targeted POTENTIAL bind that you don't max until last because it's so unreliable Lots of supports are versatile

HochelagaAug 3, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Pyke holds lane very VERY well Also karma has a targeted POTENTIAL bind that you don't max until last because it's so unreliable Lots of supports are versatile

What. No.

Karma support Doesn't max her W not because it's not reliable but because her Q and E and way more important.

I'm not sure what you're talking about a potential bind with Karma. Sure she can miss her bind if she doesn't stay close to her target long enough. But isn't that the same when a Pyke, Taric, Morgana or whatever support that miss they stun?

And you still missread me. I was talking about CLEARING A LANE, NOT holding a lane.

CaptainAntiHerozAug 3, 20181 votes

I legit just said that about karma

AND PYKE CLEARS WAVES BETTER THAN SOME ADCS legit let em on you then q e and the waves either clear or within a hit or two

And their cc is all way better then karma's because they can use it to punish engages on their carry, karma can't use w like that learn what the word potential means and the statement would make more sense

HochelagaAug 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I legit just said that about karma

AND PYKE CLEARS WAVES BETTER THAN SOME ADCS legit let em on you then q e and the waves either clear or within a hit or two

And their cc is all way better then karma's because they can use it to punish engages on their carry, karma can't use w like that learn what the word potential means and the statement would make more sense

Either you're not playing Karma right or you are getting very stubborn.

I have played over 4000 Karma games since season 2 and I think I know how to engage with Karma.

You're talking like Karma can't do shit. As if she can't engage, can't cc, does anything weaker than other supports. I believe that you main support if you keep saying that. If you feel you can't win with her, then maybe Karma isn't made for your playstyle.

There's a clear reason why Riot did a small buff to Karma to her Q only and not her W and E. She excels in coordinated teamfight. Touching her bind or shield a bit will put Karma on the top tier.

I know that I can't play Melee support cuz I suck with melee champions. I don't say that Pyke or Taric or whatever melee support suck though. It's just I can't see how to play them on their full potential.

SammyDayspringJul 30, 20181 votes

Jack of all trades. Master of none.

Linna ExcelJul 30, 20181 votes

We don't know and neither does riot.

IllabetheJul 31, 20181 votes

Karma is currently the fastest champ in the game with the most frequency, if built right (My Base Move speed is 462-467!). (Faster than Janna, Faster than Nami, Faster than Yi, Faster than Udyr)

If you play her like that, she's basically artillery that cannot be even remotely killed. And, she's strong at countering Yi and Yasuo, because Her W is not a projectile. If she can move faster than them, they cannot catch her and she can repeatedly poke them.

It's hard to claim she can't do damage.

This is a loss due to the Pantheon and Yi....... but look at the stats breakdown.

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2835675873/243999882?tab=stats

And no. I didn't have Comet or Aery, or even Electrocute, nor did I rush a Death Cap or Void staff. I used Phase Rush. If I had went Comet, i probably would have had 70k damage.

I absolutely danced circles around the Lissandra soloing her, even if she ulted me.

Here's my take on the current Karma:

She's where you begin to enter the territory of high skill cap champs with kits that are complex to master, like Pyke Elise Katarina Nidalee Rakan Zoe

Her kit to use correctly requires her to live, and for you to decide what order to actually skill, not just Q spam or E spam. It requires you to master auto attacking on a non auto attack champion.

A good Karma can easily Nuke damage here or there and perform well. A GREAT Karma can duel a Yi who has killed 4 of her teammates on his Ult and is chasing her with his 30 seconds left on ult ult, and actually kill him, even if he's 20/1, or tank 1v5 and live, while also taking 90% of an opponent's HP by herself.

(Her Self Heal is one of the most broken skills in the game, if you use it).

CaptainAntiHerozJul 31, 20182 votes

Your ez died 13 times, you should just play karma mid Aery, manaflow, transcendance, scorch, boneplatting, over growth or revitalize That's how I went 6/1/22 with a gnar adc You can get kills WHILE keeping everyone alive, but trying to be rediculously fast will do nothing for you when you face someone who actually understands the cheese you're trying to pull A decent Leona will just max w and run you down and you won't get the opportunity to heal yourself enough to not get killed by her adc Pyke can run you down just about every single time and kill you extremely easy if you don't build tank assuming he has the braincells to take Aftershock have a hexdrinker and GA and build full hp/resistances on top of that She doesn't hold a candle to Morgana whatsoever except for her mantra e because that shield is amazing hands down best shield unless you factor in what the shields do; Lulu has a pix auto, Janna gives damage, Karma gives movement speed.. ..... ..... Just saying there's currently much better picks than Karma, even if she can be fun as hell

IllabetheJul 31, 20181 votes

I was mid.

A leona can never catch me lol. I'm out of my elo, and she can't outrun, nor would I get near her, unless she's focused on a teammate of mine and I can blow her up. I would special build for her too.

And yes. I can pull it off as a support: If it's too much of a risk to stay alive trying to R >W an adc/support..... just go R-W the Gromp or the Scuttle. If none are available, recall.

I play both Pyke and Karma, so I generally know what you mean with that exchange. I can 100% guarantee you I can outrun Pyke on my current build AND kill him. Even so, assuming I couldn't in a 1v1, it's generally a long duel/wash. Pyke gets close to killing Karma, and then Karma R - W's and creates some distance with E /Q, and heals up. Then Pyke W's and heals after the W is gone, and chases more, trying to stun/poke. Karma then R-W's again....

After some 6-7 whole combos from both of them Pyke generally will be slightly ahead enough to R.

But..... if you're fighting that long, there's something horribly wrong with yours and his teammates.

Aftershock won't keep up with even a halfway move speed built Karma. You can barely keep up with one on Phase Rush Pyke.

I Utterly destroy Morgana with Karma, and I also play both there. A REGULAR Q can take Morg's entire shield away, and so can Karma's W, and Even if Morg has her shield up, the R-W still works on both heal points; it just won't root. And the way I build, W always is enough to erase Morg's Shield. Morg's Q; If you get hit by it at 462-467 Base move speed before Phase Rush/Ghost/E, You're playing something horribly wrong. Karma can also take secondary Resolve if necessary to get Second wind to minimize the damage of Morgana's Soil.

I'm not going to say she has the Best kit in the game. Not much beats a 3 second root like Morg's Q ....... when it hits. But...... this is a mobility creep Meta, and Morgana is anything but Mobile. Ahri Camille Fizz Graves Jinx JarvanIV Kayn Kindred LeeSin Lissandra MasterYi TwistedFate Tryndamere Talon Warwick MonkeyKing Zed

All generally make Morgana's games hell...... simply because they can get around the map so fast she can't keep up. As long as they avoid her, it's relatively a 4v5 game.

Lulu falls off horribly late game.

Janna also falls off horribly, unless there's a Jhin in game.

CaptainAntiHerozAug 1, 20182 votes

A good pyke will take aftershock plating second wind and usually overgrowth To beat cc lanes triumph and legend tenacity secondary TO SURVIVE KARMA: hexdrinker>maw or visage and GA TO CATCH KARMA: very very easy, mobility boots pyke w and youmuus or righteous glory literally make you nearly unkillable when added on top of your passive and guardian angel

Foolish pyke players think electrocute is the way to go but that ruins an otherwise insane mid game. Thus if pyke wants to catch you GOOD LUCK he can cover more ground then you AND negate the thing a karma wants to do early by healing through all your poke. Also never ever mention "phase rush pyke" there is only tank pyke this is the one true way

And Morgana doesn't need to beat karma early, in mid game garunteed hard cc wins hands down, especially since black shield means you will not root her Plus she's more influential in teamfights unless you re but then you cut your damage and prevent yourself from being able to heal Lulu literally just polymorph's and kills you with her team if you aren't tanky Janna doesn't so much fall off as she simply is just outclassed by alternative picks like bs sharing damage and healing and speed and slow champ nami The box and Blitz's ult ruin this little super speed power fantasy Also this things considered a support and will use that speed to have you head back to base: Fiddlesticks

Also there's this little baby: summoner 3

IllabetheAug 1, 20181 votes

When I'm not bored I'll clip a fight of me literally running Circles around a Jax or Pyke or Orianna and soloing them to death without ever even coming close to dying (I literally mean running circles).

You. Will. Never. Catch. Me. With. Pyke. On. Aftershock.

I will knock you out of your Mobis.

You have no move speed other than wasting E and W and possibly a item 3142

I DESTROY Aftershock.

P.S. I literally have 22/0/7, 24/7/7. 26/4/8 Pyke Scores on Phase Rush, and on ALL of them I was the top dper on the team. And yes. It was RANKED. Good luck getting that on Aftershock.

I just went back and watched my most recent game:

My Base Move speed was a measly 449. With E, 579. With my runes procced, I had 654-708 Move speed. Good luck keeping up with me, when you can't sequentially set off something like Phase Rush but I can, and can't sequentially set off Nimbus Cloak, but I can.

You didn't read a word I said about her Shield: I can ERASE her shield before I even get started damaging her!. When you move so fast nothing can hit you, It's extremely easy to blow up Morg's shield. Just Q her, which will do more than her shield. Then W her, and either RQ and auto attack poke her to death, or or use W to heal yourself. It's EASY AS HECK.

Lulu isn't a champ I ever face tank..... Dance around her and chip off her HP, or wait for her to Poly. Not hard.

I've played Nami since Season 4! She got me to Diamond III.

She has the lowest HP in the game.
Her heals are trumped by move speed and shields and burst damage.
Her Q has a .87 second delay any assassin can abuse to get out.
Her move speeds create delays in her runs where she wastes part of the boost, and it doesn't scale NEAR as high as Karma's and does far less to boost her AP (Nami really needs Manaflow Band and Transcendence to get good AP and scale her W/E.
Nami is hard to alternative lane. She's a support unless you want to be called a troll.
Nami can't use her entire kit on the fly with no animation gaps.
Nami's cooldowns are slightly higher, and if she's supporting someone else, she's generally prone herself.
Nami does not have carrying damage.

I like Nami, But I can pull huge success on Karma that isn't even close to possible on Nami with the current mobile meta. And I can 1v5 chase with Nami.

CaptainAntiHerozAug 1, 20181 votes

That's a whole lot of arrogance when 26/0/6 is my aftershock pyke best

Plus even without mobis swifties deadmans and glory not only catch you but slow you as well You're not changing my mind on who wins puke vs karma just because pykes cc will ALWAYS be more relevant