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@Riot Meddler, a response to your response about Mordekaiser post-DFG removal.

ABlueQuaker··3 votes·733 views

{quoted}

One of the options we're looking at at the moment is whether we should play up Morde's tankier side a bit more. Huge guy in a full suit of armor with a passive that generates a shield suggest tough front line dude. The removal of DFG already shifts him away from bursting down a target almost instantly, our thinking is that offering him a more sustained presence might be a good approach as a result. That's very much an idea being explored right now though, not yet a proven direction.

I doubt this will be seen BUT I would like you to consider looking more at mobility than reworking his abilities all together. As it stands, Mordekaiser works well as an AP Bruiser in the top lane save for his lack of mobility. I've found that he can lane similarly to the likes of Lissandra and Cassiopeia in that he can harass as he farms and exploit missteps by the enemy Top Lane. What he LACKS in comparison to such champions, though, is mobility in his kit. As such I only pick him in team compositions that can supplement that lack of mobility (i.e. If I have champions such as Thresh, Lulu, Orianna, Jayce, etc).

I'll also usually only pick him in team comps that have the potential to quickly kill a champion (usually the enemy AD Carry) marked with his ultimate. But back to his mobility issues...

Ideally (at least as a starting point) he probably only needs a Rage/Furor Passive on Mace of Spades that starts as a nice boost of speed then diminishes over a short-ish duration of time.

From this point there are two other abilities in his kit that could be used to provide mobility - Creeping Death and Children of the Grave. These would provide movement speed for Mordekaiser for that duration of the abilities (in the case of Creeping Death, it would only provide Movement speed for Mordekaiser and only if he casts it on himself).

Here's a mock-up of these abilities: Mace of Spades (Q): On next hit, Mordekaiser swings his mace with such force that it echoes out, striking up to 3 additional nearby targets, dealing 80/110/140/170/200 (+100% bonus Attack Damage) (+40% Ability Power) Magic Damage. If the target is alone, 132/181.5/231/280.5/330 (+165% bonus Attack Damage) (+66% Ability Power) magic damage is dealt instead. Mordekaiser also gains 40/50/60/70/80 Movement speed that diminishes over 5 seconds. Creeping Death (W): Unleashes a protective cloud of metal shards to surround an ally for 6 seconds, increasing their Armor and Magic Resistance by 10/15/20/25/30 and dealing 24/38/52/66/80 (+20% Ability Power) Magic Damage per second to nearby enemies. If Mordekaiser casts Creeping Death on himself he gains 3/6/9/12/15% Movement Speed for the duration of the ability. Children of the Grave (R): Steals 24/29/34 (+4% Ability Power)% of target champion's maximum Health (half stolen initially and half over 10 seconds; deals Magic Damage).If the target dies while cursed, their soul is enslaved and will follow Mordekaiser as a ghost for 30 seconds. Mordekaiser gains 20% of their Ability Power and Attack Damage, and the ghost's stats are enhanced. For 5 seconds when Children of the Grave is cast, Mordekaiser gains 50/100/150 Movement Speed and for 5 seconds after that the bonus becomes 25/50/75.

It would also be really great if his abilities had shorter/no cast time.

17 Comments

SEKAI1 votes

Once upon a time,

Morde hue'ed.

Decrit1 votes

Morde player here. Partecipated in loads of comments. I agree Morde needs to have some way to deal with mobility/cc, but i greatly hope no ms. Not only ms is overused but it' s a power that is out of place and need in morde, and also his weakness and counterplay. So are dashes, but also soft and hard cc's.

Still he can' t be kited to death while being able to no anything, so a solution was adding cc/tenacity on his kit: that would still allow you to manouvre for Q/E, stick in a target and do not die by focus, while still having a downtime.

Where? His Q is perfect as it is, probably needs more clarity, his W has scaling all over the place but is really reactive and could grant cc/tenacity on selfcast and E has no utility and is mostly a ranged Q in teamfights, so it would be another good choice for power budget investiment. Leave R be, it' s broken on his own and better not touch that.

Morde has many other problems, like having no utility in teamfight, so this does not make him pro-viable, but in the matter...

ABlueQuaker1 votes

I'm not going to pick apart your argument here, but I'm going to respond to each point one at a time.

  1. Ability-based champions are meant to be able to be shut down with CC. Give him Tenacity and that one vulnerability is removed - and it doesn't reduce the duration of knock-ups/backs/asides. Give him Movement Speed and he has the potential to avoid that CC in the first place. AND JUST TO CLARIFY the listed changes are suggestions and probably only one of them should need to be implemented as a starting point.

  2. His Q is the perfect ability to change because on a TOP LANE Mordekaiser (which is where I really this he's best played) Q is the last ability that is leveled which means that the addition to his W or R could be added as well (but not necessarily both).

  3. His E is his primary source of safe damage and is what I max first. It shouldn't provide any Utility beyond it charging up his shield. Apart from anything, Mordekaiser's W and R provide more than enough Utility to a team fight considering he can: 1. give a defensive buff to any champion that needs it; 2. if you have Rylai's and Liandry's built (as you should on Top Lane Mordekaiser) it then also provides a slow if said team member is chasing an enemy; 3. finally, his ult grants control of an enemy (usually their AD Carry) which is great for taking objectives and for pressuring priority targets from absolute safety in team fights.

If Mordekaiser had a bit of Movement speed to keep up with the pace of his team, and TriForce bruisers with their rage passives, he would easily fit into any composition at pro level.

Decrit1 votes

see, this is a problem. Morde is not a mage, is played and builded as one because he has that fallback patters but in truth he is an ap bruiser, builded with a lot of AP due to his ability to translate damage into defence. He can be played like a mage, of course, but that denies part of his kit because he needs to get closer to Q, without exposing too much. In top lane W or E are leveled first because W denies enemy duel and E pokes like hell, not because Q is not useful or good on him. This in top, where he shines is in mid where the shorter lane allows him to survive ganks and the shield allows him to deny enemy poke, but i am not going to debate that. This said, CC reduction IMO is in order, maybe not tenacity because you rightfully say that' s the way to stop him, but at least slow reduction is needed. His E needs utility. You are talking only about lane, but the true reason why morde is never picked up is that he never brings utility to the teamfight: people can cc, can debuff or what else but he has nothing but aoe pressure damage, that in lane translates in an oppressive gameplay.

In the very end i don' t think you are wrong, because it depends on the vision of the character: you see him as a mage, you think strategically to play him from range and use Q only to punish chasers and assassins, but i see him totally different because for me he is the ap bruiser that pressures damage in the frontline, avoids too much focus and seeks weak points in enemy formation to punish, until he is able to snatch a ghost.

The true question in the end is: how do you want him to be?

ABlueQuaker1 votes

Okay, now you've missed the point of what I said and went on a tangent based of my first word which I've now changed.

Here's my match history (http://matchhistory.oce.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-history/NA1/47496292?champion=82) - I only play him as a bruiser.

EDIT: You say 'at least a slow reduction', but that's exactly what movement speed would do. For example, If you lose 20% of, say 100 movement speed you end up 80 movement speed for the duration. If you increase your movement speed to 125 the amount of movement speed that you have with the 20% reduction is now 100 Movement speed - counteracting the slow completely.

Decrit1 votes

....doh

this does still not change my point however... it' s absolutely not true that ability based champions are meant to be weak to cc, that' s just a scaling for their skills and a power curve ( instead AD champions are more sensible to cc, because they have delayed auto attack or totally denied while an AP champ can cast the skills and buy time), and giving him movement speed IMO not only it' s almost useless but also not fitting on the thematics and skills of the character.

Why almost useless? Movement speed is used to engage, chase and run away, and it' s not the same of slow reduction because while the latter helps in these cases, movement speed is actively responsible for said actions, as such is more budget power in that matter, at such it will be less effective compared to a CC reduction. Morde does not need to chase, to engage or to get away fast: he needs to not be kyted to death so he can cast the Q and affect with W, he needs to not take ages to go back to turret if he gets slowed ( he is already protected by shield) and he does not need to be a strong engager because else he gets focused and dies.

Also, where? In Q it only allows to run away from people that already engaged like assassins, with W it makes him a support ( or if only self cast then it will be less effective on other aspects, making it even more bland) and in ulti you have an overcharged skill with unpredictable balancing. It would be useful on E, when i play him the major issue to em is positioning so i can get to new angles where i can hit more people or if i cna isolate a target and cast a focused Q.

Also, this because i just read again the text, i repeat myself he bears almost no team utility: his W can be cast on allies, ok, but his effect is just so fair that is not much noticeable ( even if i still do that ) and if the enemy does not abuse of the aoe damage is half wasted, cast it on a tank and the stats are half wasted aniway, this renouncing to a lot of survivability and thus making him play more passive until it is up again; the ulti gives a great team utility but is so much situational ( only if it kills, and most cases is not so much useful either - you know as me that you hardly kill the carry every time with it - because you can kill only with a situational startegy or if you have the upper hand, without giving power for an upper hand). He can arrange himself with itemization, i agree, but what he brings to the party is minimal with said items ( ulti procs diminuished after all) that are by themselves at disposition to everyone! I too take these kind of items to give some tf impact besides spamming aoe, but is not impactful at all, and he needs a personal contribution to the party.

But then again, i am thinkiong too much optimistically and in truth Morde should be much more reserved in power..?

ABlueQuaker1 votes

I'll give you a scenario. You've just hard-pushed top lane so that you can group as 5 and siege up an objective. You have H.tech Revolver, Void Staff, Rylai's and Sorcs (my items by mid-game). You have an ally assassin waiting in the wings. You use your W on him, your R on the Enemy AD Carry and your Ally Assassin moves in on the almost permaslowed Enemy AD Carry. Your team closes in and, with your increased movement speed from R, you hone in on what's left of the scattered enemy back line.

That's a lot better than pressing R and having to wait for the fight to subside so that you can cleanup, or have to flash into the enemy team to get in range of the enemy back line without being completely bogged down by CC. And the best part is that it requires team coordination and is still vulnerable to counterplay which would not be the case if he had Tenacity.

I'm honestly perfectly happy with the state of AP Bruiser Mordekaiser Top as it is. This whole thread is here so that Riot doesn't rework him and kill his identity as on of LoL's last remaining viable AP Drain Tanks (excuse the terminology - I know he's an AP Bruiser).

EDIT: The gameplay is much more rewarding and interactive if you don't just reduce the size of or eliminate a champion's problem, and instead give him (and by extension the players) the opportunity to overcome that problem themselves.

It's like that cheesy saying, "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." The only difference is that you're not providing the lesson so that he can exploit an opportunity - you're providing the opportunity so that he can make use of the lesson.

Decrit1 votes

Well i agree that is a good combination... but as i said, it' s highly situational, even more than it looks. Morde' s W range is sorta short and lasts only 6 secs, in those 6 secs the assassin has to flank, dive, survive and kill the enemy carry under morde' s ult, without making itself notice. The enemy carry must be a real doofus to be exposed, or to not be protected by the minimum cc, or to be so near morde' s W caste. Sure if the combo lands then even if the assassin dies it' s worth it, and posing the carry is a bit exposed as i said it could work, but even in the case the assassin must be minimum fed and so morde must be, plus it must be syncronized. Plus, 15% slow won' t stop the carry to walk away or to cast something to avoid damage ( dashes, slows...).

Try to do that on a pug, i don' t say it never happens but not at such exceptional level.

Let' s pose a more standard and realistic scenario: you pushed, you are 5v5 at the enemy inner turret and you are sieging, no one engaged yet, they are inside and you outside. Let' s pose an even situation, the carry lies between turret and the stairs ( and that' s pretty much exposed ). If you want to replicate the action of before, how much do you think it is successful if the team follows? And if the team engager starts it, the assassin dives later to strike, how much do you think the W will be useful ( it will, of course, but it would be so worth)?

ABlueQuaker1 votes

In that scenario it would turn into more of a sustained, kiting-based fight. Your W (with my additions to it from the Original Post) would be effective in getting you in range to cast E onto 1-3 people (depending on how clumped they are) and backing off to safety with the defensive stats from your W minimizing the damage you take and, by extension, making the trade tilt that much further in your favor.

Once a priority target makes a mistake you can then cast your ultimate on them and burst them down as a team (or at least in combination with your team's assassin) as you would in the prior scenario then either back off as a team, continue the fight, or push down an objective with a clear numbers advantage.

Above all else, honestly, just pick your battles when you're in champion select and thinking of picking Mordekaiser. Does your team composition suit it? Does the enemy's team allow you to pick it?

He's no less viable as a Top Lane champion than Kalista or Ashe or Varus are as AD Carries and they all have similar pick rates and it's simply because they'er situational picks. Mordekaiser just needs these small, frankly, QoL buffs.

Everything else in his kit is Tier 2, 1 perhaps even God Tier - burst, sustained damage, strength in lane, utility. His Mobility is what brings his average down.

Decrit1 votes

Last two rows - that is the problem. You have a dude, That dude is able to cast istant skills and to grow a shield. Add to that dude mobility. You see the flaw? I' m not sayin that he is a tanky ahri, but that goes tangent to what his purpose is: to fight, not mindlessly diving in the battlefield but with kiting too fine but to put in a good use shield, damage and draining. Movement speed is either overkill or useless, don' tr expect free ms added to any skill ( especially W) and if so in a good quantity!

Even if it had that mobility, i would like him way less. This is a bit of a personal feel, but i always played his as the immovable champion, that focused more in combat, poke, and damage sustain/ control with his own weakness. Now, if you add mobility not only that aspect goes lost, but also adds another stat steroid that he does not need - since he already is an half ball of stats of his own with sparse scalings all over the kit. It' s useful? heck, every champion can' t say no to a ms boost for that matter. Is necessary? absolutely not, he does not need egnage/disengage but just to not get entangled too much hard. Even in your examples, the ms aspect was almost invisible, you talked more about his base tactics rather ms ( and the moment you emphatized it more was when you could have aborbed damage with the shield, that exists for a reason).

Just say'n, if power budget needs to be spent on buffing him, i rather prefer to be on something that defines him and is necessary for his survival on the game scene, rather straight buffs that answers lazily to a matter.

ABlueQuaker1 votes

"...if power budget needs to be spent on buffing him, i rather prefer to be on something that defines him..."

We'll start with this. What defines Mordekaiser? In the words of Meddler himself, he's a "Huge guy in a full suit of armor with a passive that generates a shield".

Why is a "Huge guy in a full suit of armor with a passive that generates a shield" sitting at the back of a fight, completely immobile, trying to kite the likes of Renekton, Irelia, Mundo and other Bruisers and not wading through the enemy team bringing his wrath down on the enemy back line?

If I wanted to see his survival on the game (I assume you mean competitive) scene, I wouldn't leave his mobility in the lowest tiers of all champions while FotM Bruises run rings around him.

And let me be clear here. The movement speed provided by his Q in my Original Post isn't meant to be any more than Phage/TriForce's Passive at Rank 5. The movement speed provided by his W in my Original Post isn't meant to be any more than Zeal/TriForce's Passive at Rank 5. The movement speed provided by his R in my Original Post is there to create meaningful decision making - there's so many potential uses both good and bad and shades of gray.

Decrit1 votes

Point is, if you buff his mobility he will be played mostly ranged. There are tons of ways to improve his mobility without adding movement speed, because if you add movement speed then you add more kiting; remember, morde is a bruiser but he does not need to stick to a target like Olaf or the likes because he auto attacks rarely, mostly to proc Q. He needs to wade on enemy lines and to reach key targets/reap the line without dying and being able to avoid focus ( if we are talking about a bruiser).

Mordekaiser is for pressure and costant damage, yet since he has that E he is forced to kite because that' s what he can do. When i talked about utility before on his E was for this reason, add a bit more melee interactivity else he only spams E, because E is without argument the shittyest skill of Morde, yet the one we will max first and that we will use most.

If you want mobility on him, i' m fine: lich bane does that, twin shadows or how' s called does that, and i build those items and add much than needed ms stickness to him, however a solid base of mobility must be consolidated, as you say ( mobility in the most generic sense).

Mordekaiser is a dude in an armor: iron clad in the battlefield, not necessarily in the middle because he is not a good tank but as a bruiser. He has tools that allows him ranged attack, not very defining of him but he has them, and since it' s mid range he still need to be near the fight and to position well, with tools that allow his survival even if build offensively and he needs to manage them. He is a storm of damage, he does pressure and breaks the enemy lines or sieges until the tank and/or the nuker/assassin find a weakness and get the carry or other valuable targets so he can steal their souls, or he ultimate a tank and becomes immortal.

He can be cc'ed. By being under CC he can' r generate shield and can' t move. If he has ms he can try to survive but that gives power in other areas too that are not needed. Tenacity as you said woulr remove totally this weakness. If you were to think something that helps him but is not movement speed, what it could be?

ABlueQuaker1 votes

I'm getting the sense that we have two contrasting play styles here. What you're describing is more along the lines of a (AP Bruiser Top) Cassiopeia playstyle where you kite at range, whereas I tend to play him like Lissandra - tunnel hard on the AD Carry then tear apart what's left of the enemy back line.

But, like I said, it's a lot harder to get to the enemy back line with no mobility.

And, hey, even in your scenario a little MS wouldn't hurt. Cassiopeia, to whom I compare your Mordekaiser play pattern, has a conditional MS steroid in her kit ON TOP of all of her CC.

Decrit1 votes

Actually i do not :O i get to melee, either in lane or tf, just instead of doing a stagedive immediately first i weak the frontlines, gather shield and conftont enemy bruisers incoming to the mage/carry, then i dive in. Since i am weak to CC i avoid getting immediately in melee and i kite a bit, but i don' t play around that... that' s why i poposed since beginning tenacity/slow reduction ( with tenacity a bit overkill), maybe builded on W so you have a meaningful downtime or something builded thanks to E, dunno.

ABlueQuaker1 votes

Slow reduction as a non-passive ability isn't nearly enough to push Mordekaiser into mainstream viability.

Decrit1 votes

I agree, that' ms why i asked for tenacity - or maybe even a cc break - just that you reacted harsh so i dropped it.

.... did you really tought it was passive?

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