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Let's get this straight: Maw/Steraks/Mercurial are NOT defensive items.

A Dizzy Lulu··93 votes·7,408 views

item 3156 gives 55 Attack damage, 10 armor pen, and the lifegrip passive gives you a heap of other offensive buffs. the shield and mr are just icing on the cake. That makes Maw a good item in every regard, not just defense.

item 3053 gives a ridiculous amount of base attack damage along with a huge ass shield and some HP. 25 and 25 make 50, so it can give you up to 50% base ad.

item 3139 75 AD. that's one of the highest in the game. 10% lifesteal and 50% bonus MS when you use the active. the 35 MR and quicksilver passive is again, icing on the cake to make it an item good at everything. Though, it's 3700 gold, that's pretty damn expensive. Bloodthirster gives the same amount of AD as a purely offensive item. Though, I'd argue this one is the most balanced of the 3.

What is the tradeoff for building these items? With Zhonyas, you lose mana, cdr, and it takes a hefty time to build since it's expensive as shit. You trade CDR and mana for buying some armor and an active. Zhonyas is honestly a meh item when you don't factor the active.

With these 3 items, you gain damage/lifesteal/armorpen/movespeed. Building these 3 items along with other AD items and you will not notice a fall off in damage while also having ridiculous survivability.

Anyways, that's my two cents. Maw is getting nerfed though, so I like that.

137 Comments

Astôlfo30 votes

ADC mains: "how come i have to be squishy if i want to deal insane damage, that's not fair! these items are perfectly fine, i don't deserve to die ever!"

Mandaari15 votes

Except even ADC mains know these items are stupid.

Abyssphere13 votes

{quoted}

Except even ADC mains know these items are stupid.

Not the impression I've gotten from the Boards. There's been a ton of "lol assassin/mage mains just want their ez one shots" comments from ADC players and I remember one guy recently was very insistent that ADCs deserved not to die to burst champions.

Mandaari5 votes

I really haven't seen that much of it. The only cases I can think of that have some merit are when Talon or Fizz jumps on you and you just disappear. That's just frustrating, and having these ridiculous items like Sterak's and Maw in the game gets rid of that frustration. The thing is that both the items and the champions are not healthy; two wrongs don't make a right. I'd much rather be instagibbed by a couple ridiculous champions than have items that shut down an entire class of champions.

Robbit Mang2 votes

Adc champions gain lategame strength by multiplicative damage through crit and attack speed, infinity edge the zeal items essence reaver etc. if you build these 3 items your damage WILL fall off lategame, which is a pretty significant tradeoff.

AIIan3 votes

{quoted}

ADC mains: "how come i have to be squishy if i want to deal insane damage, that's not fair! these items are perfectly fine, i don't deserve to die ever!"

Honesty, when I see the ridiculous speed at which I can tear through squishies and tanks alike with my devourer / guinsoo Vi while having something like 150 armor / mr, I have a hard time figuring out why we still need adc.

http://matchhistory.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUW1/2578184463/29789489?tab=stats

Serika Zero6 votes

we need adcs to take objectives like towers fast and from a distance that's basically the reason why they exist

Keevalroy2 votes

ADC main: these items are absurdly strong.

Astôlfo1 votes

If you're actually serious and agree with me even with being an ADC main, I respect you.

Keevalroy2 votes

I don't really have much of a problem with Merc, but I disagree with giving it lifesteal.

Steraks just gives a lot for very little and should probably have a cost increase.

Now Maw on the other hand...holy shitballs. The AD is fine, the MR should be taken back down to 40 or so, the armor pen is completely unnecessary, and lifegrip is nonsense. I mean thankfully they got rid of the retarded attack speed buff, but how much did that really help?

Sir Tiddles11 votes

The trade-off is that you aren't getting as much damage out of those items as an Infinite Edge or any of the attack speed + crit items -- items that have damage multipliers instead of just AD. I actually don't think these items are too strong. Building all three will certainly let you live longer in a fight against a magic damage based team, but your dps output is going to be a lot less than if you bought damage multiplier items.

I think the pain point we are actually feeling is the after-effects of the across the board AP item cost increase, combined with the fact that AP items are fairly damage and burst oriented. There isn't enough resistance/armor/health + AP items out there to make a viable AP juggernaut so every AP scaling champ has to always choose between a full tank item or a DPS item with marginal defenses where AD scaling champs have the itemization to pick an item from anywhere along the defense --> offense scale as the situation demands it.

RisenDarkKnight3 votes

The thing is you can fit all of them in a full build. You can go Infinity Edge into (insert Zeal Item of choice here) then Mercurial, and grab Maw and or Sterak's to round out your build still do hyper scaling damage while having impressive survive-ability for a damage dealer with no pure defensive item. The only drawback would be low DPS against very high armor targets in which case you would have to drop one of Maw/Steraks for a last whisper, but in most games this is not necessary.

Sure you can get a tanky AP build with Abyssal,Rylai's, Zhonyas, ROA, LIandry's, but this will cause you to lack mana regen and CDR (and deathcap passive). In addition the Abyssal/Rylais/Roa/Liandry's all individually provide small amounts of survivablity which usually isn't enough to save you from an assassin while Maw/Sterak's can (though if you built all 4 you'd be tanky).

Zhonya's active is powerful enough to save you, but you can't take action during it while the adc can continue to DPS during the Maw/Sterak's shields.

Ayame Isaki4 votes

It's not really a trade off for Marksman; the reason is they are all about sustained DPS. Thus the longer they live, the more damage they do. If they take a 10% hit to damage per second for 20% longer life, they do more damage overall. They aren't like assassins where if they don't kill you with their burst, it doesn't matter if they live longer as they are no longer a threat (and you can kill them before they have their abilities back up; this is ideal, I know some assassins, such as Zed, bend the rules).

The trick to balance here is that you ideally want an ADC to break even or lose out on damage for building bruiser (and there are times where this trade off makes sense; esp if you getting nuked by Zed at the start of every team fight); with the state of bruiser items right now, ADCs win by building bruiser in all scenarios.

That all being said, I think you are onto something when you say AP items are the problem (and not strictly the bruiser items). I used to build Maw in S5 on ADCs all the time and no one batted an eye. You mention the cost increase as being a problem and you are right; the damage output efficiency of AP items is less than the damage reduction efficiency/damage output efficiency of bruiser AD items, which makes the bruiser items feel more oppressive for AP champions.

I also think there is a distinct lack of AP mixed items. For armor we have... Hourglass. Say what you want about how amazing the active is, I think his item sucks. I'd gladly give up the active for more AP, some CDR, or more armor. The only champion I play that I would actually miss the active is Morgana, and honestly I find the hourglass interaction with Morgana, Fiddle, and Fizz to be unfun. I still build it though, because when I need armor and AP this is my only choice.

I don't think AP/MR is in such a bad spot (it's not amazing, but it's not terrible either). Athene's is pretty solid as is Abyssal (we have two choices, only one of which really works on mans-less AP champs, but such is life; there is only one armor choice and you pay a premium for an active that in reality is weaker than the passive on Maw for most champions).

63536895_DEL1 votes

The trade-off is that you aren't getting as much damage out of those items as an Infinite Edge or any of the attack speed + crit items -- items that have damage multipliers instead of just AD. I actually don't think these items are too strong. Building all three will certainly let you live longer in a fight against a magic damage based team, but your dps output is going to be a lot less than if you bought damage multiplier items.

item 3156 item 3053 are mainly for ad caster and crit is a stat almost exclusive to marksmen. You're saying they'll lose the damage multiplier, but the items are usually built by casters, not marksmen, which crit chance is largely wasted on casters. The trade-off you pointed out only exist in the falsely assumed and unlikely situation of one class of AD champs building items meant for a different class of AD champs.

Elphrihaim3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Death LoL,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=%%%vmk6b,comment-id=00010007,timestamp=2016-03-25T10:03:04.218+0000)

item 3156 item 3053 are mainly for ad caster and crit is a stat almost exclusive to marksmen. You're saying they'll lose the damage multiplier, but the items are usually built by casters, not marksmen, which crit chance is largely wasted on casters. The trade-off you pointed out only exist in the falsely assumed and unlikely situation of one class of AD champs building items meant for a different class of AD champs.

except a critical portion of this discussion is that maw/sterak's are being built by marksmen and not bruiser/caster types.

Aaravos11 votes

I think the main problem is item 3140. Stupidly cheap and can be upgraded into one of the most powerful ad item in the game. This is allow ad champs to stack their defensive steroids and the result is this stupid sustained semi-bruiser ad carry/assasin.

item 3053 is a juggernaut item what is abused by ad carries/assasins. The irony is juggernauts are pretty weak because their core itemitem 3071 is 3500g for some reason. Remove some gold from bc and move it to item 3053 would be nice.

item 3156 is just broken but finally getting some nerf.

GenghisEmo2 votes

QSS is so cheap, its even good on AP champs. Though later in game you will need to sell it.

Azteryz2 votes

not when you are against me TwistedFate

Wenderwall2 votes

When did QSS - 1300 become cheap? When I can have sup get item 3222 -2300 with better stats.

Forn ala creme2 votes

Mikael's doesn't remove ALL CC, doesn't give MS and the active CD is huge.

Wenderwall1 votes

Mikael's Crucible Active: Removes all stuns, roots, taunts, fears, silences, and slows on an allied champion and heals that champion for 150 (+10% of maximum Health). Agreed CD is too high and doesn't remove Zed's ult.

But it is better buy compared to QSS, which ends being being only AD item with high price. Instead as ADC i can ask my sup to get it while I go with better ad items like item 3508 item 3031 item 3072 item 3812 etc

Does summoner 1 remove Zed's Ult?

Forn ala creme1 votes

Sadly, no :/

Wenderwall1 votes

Guess it's time for item 3157 for AP champs.

Forn ala creme1 votes

Did you mean QSS...?

Wenderwall1 votes

Nope, item 3157 is pretty good item against Zed ult. And yeah why not use it when hard CC'ed unless it's Bard Ult.

Forn ala creme1 votes

Oh, you confused me because it seemed like you meant that AP champions weren't already getting the item

Audiomancy2 votes

QSS removes everything. Including things like Zed's ult and suppression (Malz/WW). Mikael's doesn't. Mercurial also adds +50% MS to it.

Wenderwall1 votes

Are you sure Mikael's doesn't remove Mal/ WW ults ? Per description everything is removed and heals the champ for 10% health.

Audiomancy2 votes

Removes all stuns, roots, taunts, fears, silences and slows on an allied champion

It specifically leaves out suppression, blinds, and knock-ups. Interestingly, it also doesn't mention polymorphs, though I'm pretty sure it does remove Lulu's W.

Ayame Isaki2 votes

I would love to see a second build path for item 3140 that was AP friendly.

New Item: Spectral Scimitar

+35 MR +10% Spell Vamp -OR- +10% CDR +80 AP

Active: UNIQUE – QUICKSILVER: Removes all debuffs from your champion and grants +50% movement speed for 1 second. 90 second cooldown.

EDIT: Thanks to Leonerdo and Wimbledofy for tweaking the numbers.

Leonerdo9 votes

Good idea. But uh, AP is way less valuable than AD. 500+ AP is normal at full build. If someone has 500 AD its because they ignored every other stat and sold boots.

Wimbledofy3 votes

ap is more necessary than ad, not more valuable... should be 80-100 ap.

Sypher The Poro3 votes

Well, item 3140 is also sinking 1300 gold into just an active.

The MR you get from it doesn't do much, and it gives no offensive stats until you upgrade it. It's why most people get it as a 4th-5th item instead of 2nd or 3rd.

Dunkrius2g3 votes

their core item item 3071 is 3500g for some reason.

They made it as such so that Adcs can be building that shit. Which makes no sense at all. Revert the buff/nerf. ADCs have no use of BC.

qetzel4 votes

The trade-off is that (theoretically, anyway) their defensive powers aren't as high as a tank item would give you but their offensive powers aren't as high as the aternative, for example, another crit item.

The tuning may be wrong at the moment but there is a trade-off.

LankPants2 votes

The trade-off is that (theoretically, anyway) their defensive powers aren't as high as a tank item would give you but their offensive powers aren't as high as the aternative, for example, another crit item.

At least for Merc it doesn't work out this way because at least one lifesteal item is needed for most ADCs.

Unless you're Vayne or Kog'maw Merc actually is the highest damage option for a lifesteal item. It ties up Bloodthirster at 75 AD and Bloodthirser doesn't give any extra offensive stats. Technically Death's Dance gives a tiny bit more offensive prowess with 10% extra CDR but for the majority of ADCs DD is a false choice that's just substantially weaker than both BT and Merc.

This leaves Merc as both the best offensive lifesteal item and the best defensive item full stop on most ADCs.

Auz the Ripper2 votes

Bloodthirster's extra 10% life steal and overheal shield are better for defense in a generalistic scenario

The shield is better for resisting generic burst and the extra lifesteal makes outhealing damage a possibility.

Merc scim is only better on ADCs in niche cases like against cc-lock champions like Malz, Morg, and Naut or against champions that rely on a debuff like Lux, Zed, or Fiora.

On light fighters and melee carries, however, where getting CC'd is both a very real possibility and a complete death sentence, Merc scim is much more favorable

MEMEME6703 votes

You will not notice a fall off in damage?

Do you really think that someone who builds one of those items instead of a purely offensive item (IE, PD, a LW upgrade, etc) will not notice a fall off in damage?

FalconPawwwwnch3 votes

"hefty amount of base AD"

It's 25 AD at most for ranged champs and that AD doesn't go into bonus AD ratios

Maw or Mercurial give wayyyyyyyyyyy more damage than sterak's does

Meep Man3 votes

I think Sterak's is more an offensive defense item than defensive offense item.

Flagged1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=%%%vmk6b,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2016-03-24T19:27:11.728+0000)

I think Sterak's is more an offensive defense item than defensive offense item.

Juggernauts dont build it and its mainly abused by ADCs so they can survive burst DPS. They should change it to that theres a requirement of Health you have to have to have the shield pop. This way ADCs who want the item would have to vie for more health items.

SoMNia3 votes

They should change it to that theres a requirement of Health you have to have to have the shield pop.

It already works that way. There's a flat amount of health you need to lose at each level to get the shield. A level 18 marksman with Gage has to lose ~3/4 of their max health within 5 seconds to get it. If they have under 1800 health when the fight starts, they can't (barring enough life steal to still lose 1800 without dying, of course). Do you think the required number should be higher?

ZephyrDrake3 votes

why are you comparing 3 items together to just one? ofc if you compare almost any 3 items to one the 3 items will look way better than the one item

Dengeden2 votes

ADCs with crit focused builds will definitely notice the drop off in damage, only we haven't seen many of those lately...

Idek about Sterak's, seems too cheap and efficient.

Maikal2 votes

item 3053 Needs a 3k health req like warmogs passive. item 3156 Needs its current nerf on PBE. I don't really think item 3139 is OP, I think its alternatives are underwhelming. It's not really crowding out item 3072, but if it's being bought over it a tad more than it should then that can be remedied by decreasing BT cost or increasing Merc cost by 100 gold. item 3102 also needs its passive CD reduced to compete. Merc scim's weakness is in its build path. QSS is 50% cost efficient, so until you upgrade merc scim, you give up a lot of stats for that active.

As for the whole "These are not defensive items." Well... they're semi-defensive items. Steraks/Maw are I mean. You can't put them on the same level as true offensive items like Youmuus or Infinity edge. Call them what they are. Merc scim is an offensive item with utility. If this were to be nerfed, I would say they should just remove the MR, although that makes QSS super awkward unless they want that to give AD, which no one would want. Can't make QSS give no stats and be 0% cost efficient.

Alsek2 votes

item 3001 item 3060 item 3027 item 3157 item 3116 item 3151 ?

Semi defensive items aren't exclusive to ADs.

A Dizzy Lulu3 votes

{quoted}

item 3001 item 3060 item 3027 item 3157 item 3116 item 3151 ?

Semi defensive items aren't exclusive to ADs.

I can go over the trade offs.

Abyssal gives way less AP compared to other items. Banner also gives way less Ap roa is something I'll agree on, it's the best AP item at the moment for a reason zhonyas has been talked about several times rylais is also pretty good, but jsut gives HP and not any resistances same with liandry's

ImTheSideKick2 votes

played jungle Malphite

enemy team was all ap save for Ezreal

this made me sad as I wanted to build all armor

so I went with item 3111 item 1413 item 3091 item 3001 item 3156 and started on item 3742 cuz ezreal started to hurt but ended the game... no deaths for me was like 9/0/18 was grand

but yeah the amount of mr I had plus maw passive and I took no damage from anyone other then ezreal... literally... I healed more then damage I took

Draven Wun Trick1 votes

I'd just like to say that ever since the merc scimitar has been given lifesteal. It's become a VERY good alternative to bloodthirster. I would say either remove the lifesteal or just swap it out for another stat and i think that item's back to normal

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

The problem is BT is just not an attractive item anymore because of Merc and Gage. Merc gives less lifesteal for a better get out of jail free card than BT shield (a good trade) while Sterak's gives a bigger shield even on ADCs than BT and is not reliant on hitting things before a fight. This is at the cost of like 30 less AD under the enrage and no lifesteal, but you get 400 health and 1000 more gold to spend elsewhere so is also a fair trade.

BT is just in a very bad position right now since it is super expensive with an awful build path that comes out to 92% effeciency w/o the shield (awful for a 3700 gold item) and doesn't even hit 120% with the shield (which is still hard to keep stacked since you have to go out of your way to hit things before a fight).

BT needs to either drop in price to make it look better as an option or go back to being THE big AD item that it used to be to try to make it not overshadowed by other items. The BF sword should probably go from the recipe and be replaced with double pickaxe to ease the build path and make it not 2 instances of saving over 1000 to buy the item and could be another way to add AD to the item (or if they are adamant with the BF they could swap the long sword out for a Pickaxe to drop down the combine cost).

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