Rune shards give a disproportionate advantage toward offense over defense

PopcornBunni··74 votes·17,092 views

item 1052 9 AP: 217.5g item 1036 5.4 AD: 210g item 1042 10% AS: 250g item 3067 average 5% CDR : 133.3g

item 1029 6 AR : 120g item 1033 8 MR: 108g item 1028 average 50.3 Health: 145.9g

Add on top of that the fact that early damage means a much stronger last hit potential, and that point-for-point damage outscales defenses heavily -- 200 AD and 80 AR vs 80 AD and 200 AR guess who wins that tit for tat. Going further is the fact that defenses are worthless against the opposing damage type but more damage is always better.

Final point, the gold value of defeneses is lower than the value for health until champions have 1500 or more health to begin with, which doesn't happen naturally until around level 12 and the 60 or so health from the health rune won't speed that up to any meaningful degree.

And that's all without going into the abysmal named runes in resolve compared to the offensive trees or the tank itemization that has been shit since season 7.

55 Comments

Kaisha42 votes

Tanks and enchanters are 'unfun' according to riot and have essentially been phased out. Apparently they just want a bunch of assasins running around 1-shotting each other.

Small Tiddies5 votes

I remember back when tanks were strong because they were unkillable, rather than dealing loads of damage. I miss the days of full tank rammus tanking entires teams for 10+ seconds. Rammus 1v1 any ad champ in the game. Malphite being the king of slap fights top. That trundle vs vlad video that was a minute long slap fight.

Avereo4 votes

That trundle vs vlad video that was a minute long slap fight.


Do you have a source on this? That sounds hilarious!

The thigh guy31 votes

Incoming assassin mains who want resistance stats removes from them game.

Genghis Khat2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FYVFzcm0,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-03-17T06:37:24.757+0000)

Incoming assassin mains who want resistance stats removes from them game.

HEY! i literally use only defensive runes on kat xd + barrier.

wolvius3 votes

{quoted}

HEY! i literally use only defensive runes on kat xd + barrier.

I agree AD/AP is a defense stat it helps prevent enemy damage by killing them. Ancient Romans understood this.

Alzon2 votes

Double MR shards are so stinking good on anyone who can’t fit much MR into their build and who isn’t laning against a Lethality stacker.

Barrier on an assassin is questionable, though, unless you’re running it in place of Flash - I saw a high elo Fizz player make a guide including this once.

Genghis Khat1 votes

{quoted}

Double MR shards are so stinking good on anyone who can’t fit much MR into their build and who isn’t laning against a Lethality stacker.

Barrier on an assassin is questionable, though, unless you’re running it in place of Flash - I saw a high elo Fizz player make a guide including this once.

dude katarina has so much excess damage its crazy i take barrier to turret dive and take an extra shot, it also gives me more survivability against ganks helps survive in teamfights. its ALOT better than ignite cause ignite just offers even more excess damage that u dont need :/

LeBlanc Rose1 votes

Meanwhile I get 2 mr shard on nearly all melee mids.

Quepha17 votes

This has been the standard for runes and masteries even before runes reforged. When defensive runes/masteries were equal or higher in value than offensive options, then all players start to pick them for safer lane phases that become very uninteractive and boring. I think you're trying to make the point that damage in the game is, in general, too high right now but the way to make that case is to instead point out how things play out in-game i.e. a lack of viable tanks, very short kill times when champions are at parity, intended champion combo patterns that players simply stop using because they are unnecessary, etc.

PopcornBunni18 votes

Yeah and so instead everyone including tanks is better off now taking the damage shards and runes because unless you are an assassin Pyke or mage Lissandra the intended tank runes are fucking useless

TheSingularity19 votes

While this is true, in the past there was a significant trade off in either defense or offense if I were to take a full AD or full armor rune page with a corresponding mastery tree. Now however, we have 3 damage trees, a misbuilt defensive tree (4 damage dealing runes) that offers less innate stats than in the past to go with these runes. Essentially... no matter what, champions have more damage with less defensive trade offs than in the past (triumph, relentless healing, spellshield/movespeed boost as secondary/primary runes). So while yes, there was a gap between defensive runes and offensive runes. The gap wasn't so large that you instantly lost if you were the armor guy. Currently, that gap is bloody massive to a point in which most tanks simply can't stand against any champions be it top or jungle

ChrisBrownze13 votes

The boards need more quality posts like this. Well done!

Nea1047 votes

Things like that have been pointed out by the "useless Boards" since pre-season 8, almost 1 year and a half ago.

Season 9 is just a cosplay, since the "useful team" who is is supposed to work on this game is so competent.

AirKingNeo6 votes

This isn't a quality post. This is garbage by not understand gold efficiency vs stat effectiveness.

In this post's eyes, lowing the price of longsword would be a nerf to AD rune shards.

Daddy Ants8 votes

Nerf this busted shit first then consider buffing defense.

https://i.gyazo.com/4a1d26234f321cfac84426890ad80159.png

Mael Jade24 votes

{quoted}

Nerf this busted shit first then consider buffing defense.

https://i.gyazo.com/4a1d26234f321cfac84426890ad80159.png

Aka "make it scale with resistance" so Ryze, Lissandra, Pyke and whoever else cant abuse it anymore as they are doing right now but only tanks can use it

wolvius7 votes

{quoted}

Aka "make it scale with resistance" so Ryze, Lissandra, Pyke and whoever else cant abuse it anymore as they are doing right now but only tanks can use it

Aka revert it to pre 8.2 functionality. And we know riot they don't do reverts unless it's an assassin or whatever renger is.

AirKingNeo1 votes

well obviously since Riot loves keeping mages broken

wolvius2 votes

{quoted}

well obviously since Riot loves keeping mages broken

They love keeping penetration op, sorc plus oblivion orb true damage to squishies. Void staff invalidating MR purchases while still giving damage for against squishies. Buying penetration should have a downside/tradeoff.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

Buying penetration should have a downside/tradeoff.

Same for AD Pen.

wolvius1 votes

{quoted}

Same for AD Pen.

Yeah like changing the formula so that lethality is applied before percent reduction to make building anti-squishy more punishing against tanks and defense more worth in general.

Hemulen Magi7 votes

I think the rune set should look like this: Offense: +5 hybrid pen | +10% attack speed | +1-10% CDR Flex: +8 adaptive force | +40% base regen (mana+hp) | +5% max health Defense: +6 armor | +10% base health | +8 magic resist

The numbers above could be adjusted but I think these would offer a better decision-making puzzle. Offense: Want burst? | Want DPS/jungle-clear? | Want to use abilities more (am I actually not an offense champion)? Flex: Want more damage or maybe AP utility scaling? | Want early sustain? | Want scaling defense? Defense: Up against heavy physical damage? | Not sure what damage you'll face (or not planning to build very tanky)? | Up against heavy magic damage?

Cyrosi5 votes

I feel like we need some stronger runes and some slightly better defensive items. We don’t need the defensive stuff to be better than the offensive stuff. But it should be a viable option and I don’t think it is currently.

Isn’t the point of a tank to be Tanky? On top of that it would be nice if we had some tanky options across other roles. Not to go all tank, but to maybe start running a defensive item if you keep getting dove? Plus some supports would probably love the tanky items and runes as an option.

Tahminatrix 4 votes

Defensive runes were pretty viable, until riot GUTTED overgrowth to "make it more appealing to other classes" now nobody uses it unless they have no choice but to. (no synergy with increased healing / shielding or tenacity)

DJBlackVoice3 votes

"you dont need play a game for balance it" ask this guy

Cheini3 votes

ppl, don't think about the runes as their representation in gold, but rather - what damage you deal.. or receive!  

  lets take the 9 mr one, as it is the simplest as the game goes on:

most ranged charas have 30 mr pre-items (and runes), which negates 3/13 of the dmg, ~23% with the mr rune, this goes to 38 -> 38/138, ~28% -> difference is about 4.5%

the ap rune, on the other side, gives you +9 x ratio - you know, lets take Karma Q: 80 + 60% ap, so the additional damage is... 5.4.

  Each spell (or item, so their ap isn't important here) counts both mr and ap in its damage, so doing the math(s) for one would be enough:

ap rune x mr rune on receiver: 72% x (80 + 60% x 21) = 66.7 (with two ap runes, 69.3) mr rune x ap rune on receiver: 77% x (80 + 60% x 15) = 68.5

mr rune WINS!  

  KEEP IN MIND! As the game goes on and you get higher mr/ar, their effective stats get lower and lower diminishing returns - save for the penetration effects (oblivion orb/s. shoes), and ranged charas who don't bother buying mr - ie, vs Zyra, Brand, proper build Sona, etc. In that case, these runes are even more op!

Also, lower numbers on the base damage of the spell/attack lessen the effect of the def runes however... er just keep it like a rule of thumb that so long as you have low def stats, they are better k? xd

Don't forget that the armor rune can save you from a 360 no-scope Zed all-inning you... and the best cc is death! (well, bar a few exceptions.. xd)

  final notes:

the cdr rune is basically double the adaptive one late game, if you cap it by items!

hp rune! (sr need some red text as well.. xd) gets better if you have real high armor and mr, not total hp! (bar % hp effects ofc) and acts as a wildcard - even though it is considered pointless, don't ignore it :p

AirKingNeo3 votes

That's because tank base items are underpriced. Is it a nerf to rune shards if I make Longsword cheaper?

PopcornBunni2 votes

{quoted}

That's because tank base items are underpriced. Is it a nerf to rune shards if I make Longsword cheaper?

"underpriced" and yet a single longsword vs a chain mail wins every time, let alone against a cloth armor.

And then tank final items range from 70-90% cost efficient while only being effective vs one of the damages while damage picks get to be equally more strong against everything with a single stat.

Cheini1 votes

{quoted}

"underpriced" and yet a single longsword vs a chain mail wins every time, let alone against a cloth armor.

And then tank final items range from 70-90% cost efficient while only being effective vs one of the damages while damage picks get to be equally more strong against everything with a single stat.

nope, it doesn't!!

AirKingNeo1 votes

so if you raise the price of cloth armor, the cost efficiency of tank items goes up. You've proven my point.

Also, chainmail beats longsword, obviously. 800 gold item vs 350 gold.

Sobx2 votes

Pretty sure tanks aren't supposed to be really tanky since the start of the game, that'd make them extremely safe picks. Being rewarded for picking a tank by having a safe uncontested lane and a free farm-fest would be boring and pretty stupid imo. Playing more aggressively requries you to be proactive and actually do something while remaining vulnerable to potential ganks.

Ragnaveil8 votes

Then are they suppose to be strong late game? Cuz I know anytime I pick a tank and its late game, I don't exist because everyone and their mother has pen and some type of hp damage effect and with that kills me in one dogpile of damage.

Sobx1 votes

{quoted}

Then are they suppose to be strong late game? Cuz I know anytime I pick a tank and its late game, I don't exist because everyone and their mother has pen and some type of hp damage effect and with that kills me in one dogpile of damage.

So you think you're supposed to be strong in lane early game as a tank? And then you'd like to be unkillable late? Ok then, that would make for a great gameplay.

Ragnaveil6 votes

Im pointing out the fact we are super killable in both. I wouldn't mind being somewhat weak early game if it meant I could survive a bit more longer late game.

Sobx1 votes

{quoted}

Im pointing out the fact we are super killable in both. I wouldn't mind being somewhat weak early game if it meant I could survive a bit more longer late game.

Sure, you totally don't want to be able to run into anyone without being able to be touched, I'm confident of your pure intentions of perfectly balanced game, ok. Tank meta is super fun.

Ragnaveil6 votes

??? I'm not even asking for a tank meta, i'm asking for a class to actually fucking exist instead of being in a very dead state outside of support. Top lane tanks weren't the only picks that got killed and kicked around over and over. Ask Zac, Skarner and Sej, especially Sej.

Sobx1 votes

{quoted}

??? I'm not even asking for a tank meta, i'm asking for a class to actually fucking exist instead of being in a very dead state outside of support. Top lane tanks weren't the only picks that got killed and kicked around over and over. Ask Zac, Skarner and Sej, especially Sej.

Wow, so they nerfed sej after she was 100% pick/ban? Great example of how you "don't want tank meta" lmao. You don't need to directly ask for tank meta -buff them and there will be noodle fights every game. All you want is a champion with easy, safe early game that's unkillable late game while still dishing out fair amount of dmg to squishies.

Ragnaveil1 votes

If I wanted to be unkillable late and dealing fair amount of damage to squishes, I would say, "Make Tanks the god class of the game." Not once have I said that.

Sobx1 votes

{quoted}

If I wanted to be unkillable late and dealing fair amount of damage to squishes, I would say, "Make Tanks the god class of the game." Not once have I said that.

Not with these exact words and you didn't need to, wtf is your point here? You know well that you only say what you say becasue you enjoy abusing tanks at their strongest lmao.

Ragnaveil1 votes

No, I prefer being able to play the class/style I like playing vs being forced to play a class/style I don't like. Making tanks good but not broken is entirely possible. Instead, you and people like you are so embroiled in this idea that "the tank meta is terrible" when the simple truth is the tank meta was actually the adc meta in s7, tanks were picked just to help the adcs since if they could do all the damage and all the work, then what was the point of picking more damage vs having a beefy frontline? To even further that point, how was the Ardent meta birthed? It wasn't tanks that caused it.

Sobx1 votes

{quoted}

No, I prefer being able to play the class/style I like playing vs being forced to play a class/style I don't like. Making tanks good but not broken is entirely possible. Instead, you and people like you are so embroiled in this idea that "the tank meta is terrible" when the simple truth is the tank meta was actually the adc meta in s7, tanks were picked just to help the adcs since if they could do all the damage and all the work, then what was the point of picking more damage vs having a beefy frontline? To even further that point, how was the Ardent meta birthed? It wasn't tanks that caused it.

Nope, you just abused the tanks and you want to keep being able to abuse them some more. Ardent has nothing to do with it btw.

Astrovert2 votes

Game has completely become dive and first damage and to hell with any sustain or tank.

Basically meaning if you are looking for a game where you counterplay and have a meaningful rewarding experience, then you come to the wrong game.

IQ for League is falling off a cliff. Playing with 12 year olds over and over (or at least people who sure could be confused for) is not fun, and trying to get people to play other than inting when it is rewarded isn't possible anymore. Entire experience isn't fun anymore unless you are amused by stupid things.

i wana die2 votes

every game is just a 1shot fiesta and it wont go back to before tbh

ESeTyRC2 votes

Defensive options are for ADCs and other damage dealers like Assassins apparently.

Overheal Triumph Tenacity / Lifesteal

Taste of Blood Ravenous Hunter

Immediately useable and improving over game time, scaling with more damage, and most can be selected together.

Meanwhile: Conditioning not active for 10 min, just to make sure the enemy gets a head start. Second Wind with slow af healing that hardly amounts to anything. Bone Plating which is obviously meant for squishies that haven't chosen to build resistances, inversely useful with how durable the Champ is.

and you can only choose one of the above, just to make sure the enemy can still kill you easily.

Jinzo Torrance2 votes

Tank players are the most delusional lot I've ever seen.

Tjkidd301 votes

As a talon/shen main i wish there is more defensive options for tanks. Staks get shredded so easy even when they stack armour.

Karunamon1 votes

green purple blue Red

Woah, when were these added?

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