spamming high base damage and % health damage abilities, being able to turn a game around after being beat in lane but landed one ult, and being a giant fucking wall of defensive stats while being dangerous.
Ornn is the fucking best example of this. He will spam his w beat the shit out of you using % health damage while having an ult that can change a game.
MrFawknSunshine2 votes
has a 45.73% win rate a 1.56% pick rate and a 0.62% ban rate this patch for Plat + across all servers
Critmaster Garen3 votes
his overall strength isnt the problem though. the problem is, that when ornn is good, why hes good.
i still think they never should have removed the unstoppable on his w and tuned his damage down instead.
the problem is that riot despises noodle fights between tanks and theyre prone to make tanks essentially bruisers with a lot of cc.
MrFawknSunshine1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FYOdZ9dj,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-07-29T19:15:46.750+0000)
his overall strength isnt the problem though. the problem is, that when ornn is good, why hes good.
i still think they never should have removed the unstoppable on his w and tuned his damage down instead.
the problem is that riot despises noodle fights between tanks and theyre prone to make tanks essentially bruisers with a lot of cc.
tanks arent brusiers with cc, tanks in general are over all one of the weakest classes in the game.
Critmaster Garen1 votestanks arent brusiers with cc, tanks in general are over all one of the weakest classes in the game.
right now they are.
but the problem is, that riot added a lot of % health damage into their kits to make them able to kill each other. this usually causes them to often shit on fighters when theyre not terrible, because they bring similar defense, damage and additional cc and team utility.
like ornn is a great example (or the most extreme). when he was strong he just outtraded fighters in lane with w and brittle procs, but was also more useful later on due to everything else in his kit.
poppy has the same issues imo.
and cho was honestly just insulting, and still is to be quite honest. his e is still bullshit and to this day i dont agree with riot basically making him a tank with juggernaut damage.
if you give a tank enough base damage to basically kill another tank, then what does that tell you? does this seem remotely reasonable?
MrFawknSunshine1 votesin times pass tanks were BRUISERS with CC cuz they could build 1-2 damage/bruiser items then out damage and out tank everything in game
remember maokai top meta?
now tanks build legit no damage and legit can barely tank anything any more they are so handicapped and crippled from runes compared to brusiers/fighters now.
the top 14 top laners according to win rate arent tanks, the 1st true tank appears at #15 which is malphite and according to most picked top laners the 1st tank dont appear til 14th which is malphite againand according to ban % the 1st tank that appears is malphite at 37th most banned top laner
so out of this top lane meta the 15th best win rate is malphite (52.1% win rate ) with the 14th highest pick rate (2.7% pick rate ) and 37th ban rate (1.4% ban rate)
so tanks are nearly legit trash tier only class that is worst is crit adcs.
Critmaster Garen1 votesin times pass tanks were BRUISERS with CC cuz they could build 1-2 damage/bruiser items then out damage and out tank everything in game
remember maokai top meta?
now tanks build legit no damage and legit can barely tank anything any more they are so handicapped and crippled from runes compared to brusiers/fighters now.
the top 14 top laners according to win rate arent tanks, the 1st true tank appears at #15 which is malphite and according to most picked top laners the 1st tank dont appear til 14th which is malphite againand according to ban % the 1st tank that appears is malphite at 37th most banned top laner
so out of this top lane meta the 15th best win rate is malphite (52.1% win rate ) with the 14th highest pick rate (2.7% pick rate ) and 37th ban rate (1.4% ban rate)
so tanks are nearly legit trash tier only class that is worst is crit adcs.
im not disputing that tanks are weak at the moment.
but what i want from riot is to make them more beefy and remove % damage out of their kits.
because otherwise they just become as strong duellists as bruisers while being better at teamfights.
i dont mind an ornn being able to outlive every shit i throw at him and being unkillable during the lane phase. my problem is when champions like ornn, poppy and cho can just outtrade you as a fighter from the beginning, because riot gave them enough base damage to kill other tanks.
and the ONLY driving factor in this decision was that theyre afraid that it may make pro games with two tanks in the top lane boring to watch, when they have no reason to fight each other.
because fuck strategy and lane mechanics and outfarming your opponent. if the jungler doesnt come around every 3 minutes for a gank, and you dont see a couple of kills in the first 10 minutes, theyre not happy.
Critmaster Garen1 votesornn is the exception, and for the most part every wrong reason to why hes strong as a tank.
Colton1471 votes is a very mechanically intensive champion and has a high skill ceiling. (Level 7 )
He's been gutted with nerfs and is back to being weak like on Release Day. He badly needs his damage and Unstoppable back.
43% win rate: http://na.op.gg/champion/ornn/statistics/top
Critmaster Garen1 votes
He's been gutted with nerfs and is back to being weak like on Release Day. He badly needs his damage and Unstoppable back.
43% win rate: http://na.op.gg/champion/ornn/statistics/top
buff his defense, give him his unstoppable back, but i disagree with the damage.
tanks should be relevant through their utility and disruption. dealing damage is the job of other classes, and the tradeoff of damage vs. utility is the only defining difference between fighters and tanks.
this is my main issue with riot regarding tanks. they tend to give them too much damage, which makes fighters essentially worthless.
to be fair, they also tend to give fighters on occation too much utility. 
is disgusting with her ability to long range engage on targets and lock them down almost as well as a tank.
MrFawknSunshine1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FYOdZ9dj,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-07-29T19:48:54.420+0000)
buff his defense, give him his unstoppable back, but i disagree with the damage.
tanks should be relevant through their utility and disruption. dealing damage is the job of other classes, and the tradeoff of damage vs. utility is the only defining difference between fighters and tanks.
this is my main issue with riot regarding tanks. they tend to give them too much damage, which makes fighters essentially worthless.
but if a tank has no damage at all then they arent a threat at all and no one will even worry about them or bully them more then what they are currently cuz they know no matter what that tank cant do enough damage to kill them even if they misplay
Critmaster Garen1 votesbut if a tank has no damage at all then they arent a threat at all and no one will even worry about them or bully them more then what they are currently cuz they know no matter what that tank cant do enough damage to kill them even if they misplay
they tend to be a threat through their utility.
if a nautilus keeps you from moving, or an ornn knocks you around and debuffs you, then hes still a threat to you in larger fights. but you cant put everything into a champions kit.
if a tank deals enough damage to kill another tank, then he also deals enough damage to kill a fighter. in that case, why would you ever pick a fighter?
its like a 
can still fuck up your day even when she doesnt deal any damage.
MrFawknSunshine1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FYOdZ9dj,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-29T19:54:34.232+0000)
they tend to be a threat through their utility.
if a nautilus keeps you from moving, or an ornn knocks you around, then hes still a threat to you in larger fights.
ok you are still bring up mid -late game. tanks cant even get to that point with out being so far behind right now. hence why their pick/win rates are shit.
when you play a tank in lane vs a bruiser/fighter you are at a disadvantage cuz of runes and not having access to really any tank stats from runes til 10mins or lvl 10.
resolve gives 15 bonus hp at lvl 1 conditioning you dont get any armor or mr til 10 mins in game, cant get any cdr til 10 mins if u take transcendence where as bruisers/juggernauts are getting free bonus ad and true damage from conqueror and flat out bully and out trade you before you can even get an item.
tanks have no early game damage to fight, no early game tank stats to sustain. so they lose lane stupid hard and have to be behind and catch up going into mid-late game "team fight /group stage" while brusiers have 2-3 items with more damage and as much effective hp.
garen is stronger then any tank in lane and he dont even take conqueror. darius beats any tank in lane just cuz of kit and conqueror they both end up as much or relatively as much HP and nearly some of the same defensive stats with out having the "cc /utility" so they cant be killed easily and can kill anything that chose to fight them. this just two examples. jax is another and so on.
now i have argued to buff tanks with out buffing their damage in a thread a week or so ago.
my changes would be to give resolve when you go primary , more hp early and less scaling . not really buffing the over all hp. 15 hp at lvl 1 is in effective and you lose that with one trade. so make it more front loaded at early lvls and scale less as you lvl up.
2ndly could be changes to conditioning make it where you get free bonus armor and mr when you take it lets say 5 armor 5 mr and after 10 mins you get +10% bonus armor /mr
currently you get 0 armor /mr til 10 mins and only + 8 armor and mr after ten mins and +5% bonus
this change would give you some sustain in lane while rewarding tanks for building more armor /mr after 10 mins with a higher % bonus so from currently of zero til 10 then +8armor/mr +5% bonus to +5armor/mr then at 10mins +10% bonus armor/mr
