Can we bring back or at least strengthen the concept of tank?

LatetotheRace··55 votes·3,018 views

Not juggernauts, not fighters, not bruisers, just good ole tanks. Think full armor rammus, or full tank Galio. (0 AP items) Or full tank Alistar and Braum. How about we imagine Gragas and Maokai before they built fighter and mainly existed to cc and soak up damage, not dealing it. Am I the only one who is absolutely disgusted by tanks dealing significant amounts of damage? I realize that enough people whined and complained about not "being significant" as if disrupting the entire enemy team and giving yours a huge opening isn't enough. These little bastards insisted that they get to do damage on top of all that! Guess what?! The entire balance of the game went to hell. Now that tanks started doing damage we needed to make everyone else do more damage to somehow balance out this new crapshoot. Now tanks can't even reliably tank due to new items that are quite honestly too strong. item 3036 item 3508 item 3071 Not only that, but riot has had to severely limit the options for tanks and nerf the ones that are still viable. How.... why is this fair? Especially when the champions they're supposed to beat destroy them with unnecessarily strong Armor/Magic pen items, %Health damage and even excessive true damage! (That's right, I'm looking at MasterYi The champion whose main damage output turns to true damage the second you build 120 armor) It's about damn time that Riot revitalize the concept of Tanks without ending up with champions like Amumu Gragas Malphite Chogath Maokai Sion Volibear Throwing everything out of proportion.

I'd like to think that there are several things that would need to change for this to happen.

  1. % Max health damage needs to vanish.
  2. True damage as a main damage output needs to stop.
  3. Unnecessary shred needs to disappear. I get this is to stop fighters, but there's certainly better ways to do the job.

In return we'll likely see.

  1. Assassins being unable to kill tanks, as it should be. Tank>Burst>Sustain>Tank.
  2. Tanks (Malphite Gragas Maokai Volibear ) will stop bursting carries, you know why? Cause it's not their job. Will they set stuff up? Absolutely, but there's only so much a tank should be able to do.
  3. Better distinguation between fighters and Tanks. Fighters will lose the benefit of building tank, and thrive when building damage. Fizz Ekko Akali Fiora ) and once these changes are in place, we'll never see another Assassin/"high mobility duelist" ever benefit from a full tank build.
  4. Much better and balanced games. Team fights won't last a glorious 3 seconds, but closer to 10-12. Why? Because everyone will be doing less damage overall. (This would really go well with the new assassin update coming here soon.

Ugh, writing this though. I seriously felt as if this should be common knowledge, but I suppose the glory of just tanking for days died when flashy little champions that out damaged and out tanked the competition became popular.

Btw, don't mention the word "juggernaut" to me, that's an abomination that riot was forced to make in an effort to give people what they only thought they wanted. (Similarly to DQ) Just look at those champions now. Garen has a dwindling winrate, Mordekaiser is so niche you'll likely see more or rammus. Skarner has such a high skill floor that he's rarely played correctly. Then Finally we have Darius, oh boy are you fun to deal with..... There's also a couple of other champions that could qualify for the title of juggernaut. For instance Nasus, Illaoi, and Cho'gath. Whome all have problems at their core. Cho'gath has a serious itemization problem that often changes drastically from game to game as does his relevance. Illaoi is just a balancing mess that teaters from broken to weak. And Nasus either steamrolls or fades into oblivion all depending on his opponents team-comp.

Tl;DR Stop "tanks" from doing large amounts of damage, and let them CC and tank as intended. Distinguish between tanks and fighters, while giving each distinct strengths and weaknesses. Finally change assassins so they can't kill tanks with any efficiency. Also, don't mention Juggernauts, those are abominations which have turned out to be only balancing nightmares.

105 Comments

Akali is SO HOT16 votes

Ya it's fun having Gragas 100-0 me because he built full tank

Melledoneus3 votes

Iceborn Gauntlet is not a tank item, and neither is Runic Echoes.

TwinkiePro2 votes

And why isn't it? Because it doesn't give health? niether does frozen heart. Because it does damage? so does deadmans.

Atanchan1 votes

You can say those're juggernaut items, but y'know what deals damage and has been a tank item since its conception? Sunfire.

Melledoneus1 votes

Sunfire cape does minimal, delayed damage, and its main focus is for clearing minion waves and jungle monsters.

Atanchan1 votes

It takes like 3 seconds for a Sunfire to deal the same damage as a fully charged Dead Man's Plate at Level 7, and to boot it's in an AoE and deal magic damage, not physical, so champions have less natural defense to it over the course of the game. Not to mention it's 400 range to Dead Man's Plate's autoattack range.

Considering how good true tanks are at getting on top of people and staying there, I'm pretty sure saying

{quoted}

its main focus is for clearing minion waves and jungle monsters.

makes Dead Man's Plate's purpose as a damage item a last hit aid.

Melledoneus1 votes

Considering how good true tanks are at getting on top of people and staying there, I'm pretty sure saying

makes Dead Man's Plate's purpose as a damage item a last hit aid.

UNIQUE Passive- Immolate Deals 25 (+1 per champion level) magic damage per second to nearby enemies. Deals 50% bonus damage to minions and monsters.

Not to mention that they're two different types of damage and everybody has higher base MR than armor. Also, you failed to mention how Dead Man's Plate adds to base auto attack damage, and the damage is DOUBLED at full charge. Please do your research before you try to talk logistics.

Atanchan1 votes

... Yes, the damage is doubled. You get 1 damage out of Dead Man's Plate per 2 stacks of Momentum, and max stacks doubles it, making it so that it deals 100 damage. It doesn't effectively give you 100% crit, if that's what you though it did.

At level 7, Sunfire deals 32 damage. Three seconds of that is 96 damage. 8 it's 99, 9 it's 102. You really do get more damage out of Sunfire than your do Dead Man's as long as you can stay in range for more than a split second.

And I literally mentioned the damage type difference, and not many champions ( especially not top laners ) have higher MR than armor. At level 1? Well, sure, but you aren't getting either Dead Man's or Sunfire at level 1, so it's pretty irrelevant to look at level 1 stats.

Melledoneus1 votes

Deadman's Plate is a juggernaut item.

Iceborn Gauntlet is an item for bruisers who are stacking armor. Unfortunately, tanks rely on it now to be relevant, so people have the misconception that it's a tank item.

TalkingIsBanned210 votes

full tank builds can easily out damage the adc. its absolutely dumb af. played a game earlier 3 full tank builds on the enemy team and they were literally unbeatable it didnt matter how much fucking armor pen we built it was absolutely stupid af. riot wants this game to literally be 10 tanks fighting each other for 5 miniutes its boring as hell and im tired of it.

Melledoneus3 votes

Here's a tip.

Disregard item 3025 item 3748 as fighter/bruiser items, not tank items. Tank items provide minimal damage, and do not have offensive stats.

Now most full tanks will not deal damage.

Squidward Dab8 votes

Agreed. Volibear, Hecarim, and Gragas are the biggest offenders when it comes to being tanky yet still being able to deal damage because they built like one damage item and then building tank. Oh you thought Gragas couldn't gonna kill you, wait nvm he built runic echoes now he can easily 3 shot you. Also please remove that missing health bite damage from volibear, its ridiculous. Hecarim built trinity force then tank? No worries you can live only if you have more than 180 armour.

Bagguette4 votes

That fucking volibear bite is the bane of my existance and makes it so he wins almost every fucking trade. Disgusting ass move.

LordKentravyon3 votes

Ok to be fair Hec is not a full tank, he is and always has been fighter first tank second. He's less tanky and less lockdown but more damage and damage based sustain.

Its unjust to put him in the same category as champs like amumu and rammus

Squidward Dab1 votes

Ok that's true I should've been more distinctive between the classes it's just that hec can feel a bit annoying when he proceeds to take down your health bar with ease because of tri force but still be hard to kill which is fair TBH since he is melee I was just a bit salty when I posted

RogueWill5 votes

Volibear is a figther not a tank..... I could accept him as a juggernaut but not as a tank, he doesn't have enough utility to be considered a tank, he is more or less like Shyvana

Penns3 votes

item 3036 item 3508 are too strong?

Also https://i.gyazo.com/4525cd5e7bbdd896ba215f4c86732ca7.gif without item 3153 he wouldve died lel

Titanium708 votes

Wow Full AS Champ gets rekt by Champ who deals more DMG the more you AA him.... surprising...

(Hell I'd not be surprised if the PhantomHit procs his W/Thormails twice! x'D)

Penns3 votes

Still, literally killing a fed adc that is known for shredding tanks and has life steal just by getting hit doesnt seem really fair.

Critmaster Garen6 votes

{quoted}

Still, literally killing a fed adc that is known for shredding tanks and has life steal just by getting hit doesnt seem really fair.

how about just not attacking rammus during the few seconds he has his w up?

its not like he was even a threat in that situation. she could have just impaled him, waited it out and then attack. i didnt see her use bork active either.

id also argue that vaynes entire kit isnt fair. there is 0 counteplay to any of her abilities.

Penns3 votes

With max cdr his W has like 2 sec downtime and the 6 seconds it lasts is quite a long time of "just dont attack him" while he is literally running in 1v4 lol. And the counterplay to Vaynes E is to not position next to a wall, the rest of her kit is just auto attacks so.. yeah.

Also, if you dont have QSS or just used it already, and the Rammus actually does something (taunts you), what do you do then? Im not saying Rammus is op but I hate champs that build full tank and kill your adc in a few seconds without any skill required.

Ahristocats2 votes

{quoted}

With max cdr his W has like 4 sec downtime

fixed, and i'm not even sure that the cooldown doesn't start when his W ends. A tank dies in 2 seconds in late game

{quoted} and the 6 seconds it lasts is quite a long time of "just dont attack him" while he is literally running in 1v4 lol.

and? is rammus going to kill your entire team if you don't attack him?

{quoted}

Also, if you dont have QSS or just used it already, and the Rammus actually does something (taunts you), what do you do then?

you take item 3111 which reduces the taunt duration to 1.4 seconds then you don't attack him, you want to attack him? build any of those items item 3102 item 3155 item 3139 and rammus's damage won't pass through lifesteal because no rammus build void staff

{quoted} Im not saying Rammus is op but I hate champs that build full tank and kill your adc in a few seconds without any skill required.

yea, maybe in bronze.

Penns3 votes

14 x 0.6 = 8.4 and Im pretty sure the cd starts when you activate it, otherwise 14 would be pretty long.

And, I mean, Gosu was playing Vayne there, so... How does rank or skill even matter when the Voli or Garen or Rammus or whatever runs at you with 600-700 move speed, maybe even flash, and oneshot you while you are ccd?

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted} How does rank or skill even matter

it matters in the way how these people deal with a situation of someone running at them. someone who deosnt play like a potato for example will stop said champ in his tracks and start kiting instead of panicking and trying to run away at half the speed, then wondering why he cant stay out of the other guys range.

Penns1 votes

And.. how does kiting in a 1v1 help when someone is running at you with 700 ms? Unless you have hard cc its just gonna slow you down and something like MF E probably wont help.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

And.. how does kiting in a 1v1 help when someone is running at you with 700 ms? Unless you have hard cc its just gonna slow you down and something like MF E probably wont help.

dont 1v1 them?

Penns3 votes

Adc looks like a pretty fun role if you literally cant play the game on your own because everything kills you lol.

kile1472 votes

And if your team protects you then you kill everyone. The marksmen are supposed to be team/peel reliant and in return if you keep them safe they deal obscene damage. That's the tradeoff marksmen were originally designed around.

KONO RUBICK DA3 votes

you want to 1v1 everyone with a glass canon build without someone to peel for you? yep i hope riot will never hear you.

Ahristocats1 votes

escuse me, who runs at 700 ms?

Penns1 votes

If I calculated it right Voli at level 18 with Ghost, boots and item 3742 gets nearly 700. Its not like you can really escape 600 move speed with blue smite either tho.

Ahristocats2 votes

so you take ghost instead of flash, which makes the entire enemy team able to cc you while you're charging.

won't work

Penns1 votes

"kiting in a 1v1" tho

TequilaZombie1 votes

There are two soft caps to mov speed. At most the voli with ghost, Q and DMP will get at around 600.

You can easily land 1 single CC on him to vastly reduce his speed because:

1- There is no soft cap to slows; 2- DMP mov speed buff is reduced if you get slowed.

If you are an ADC who's going to face a Voli, you should probably have built something to help with kitting, usually a Black Cleaver or a FM, coupled with Boots of Swiftness.

If you know how to kite and orb walk you should be good.

In short: git gud.

Penns1 votes

Theory is often easier than practice lol. Even if you slow him as adc hes likely gonna be faster especially if you turn around to kite and if not most Volis still take flash. Sadly I dont have like unlimited iframes + mobility so gitting gud isnt that easy Kappa

mikho3 votes

I agree. Went 600+ armor malphite with a thorn mail and got shredded by a yi. This shouldn't be possible.

Atanchan1 votes

Was it a 0 / 5 / 2 Yi? Because if you reach the point where you get 600 armor on a tank, a hypercarry that isn't shut down is naturally going to scale harder offensively than you will defensively.

I mean, that's how it is in basically anything with such character scaling, so you don't get scenarios where defensive progression isn't better than offensive and you get a bunch of wet noodles slapping each other for less damage than they can regen between each attack.

Kyrrion3 votes

Let's all just remember that goodness that is Nautilus , the perfect tank.

Massive CC, bulk that requires investment to truly shine, and passive threat on his W that grants counterplay while allowing Nautilus to deal a fair amount of damage without being ridiculous.

L0ve Is Blue2 votes

Deals way too much damage for a tank.

Doctor Dyment3 votes

Not sure where you're getting this information, but Nautilus doesn't have high base values. He really is a tank with CC over damage.

L0ve Is Blue1 votes

Idk 350 AOE damage on E seems pretty strong if you ask me. And having 3 ability that scale over 60%AP for a tank is not low either.

All he needs is ROA and his damage is equivalent to a bruiser, than he can just build full tank.

Doctor Dyment2 votes

His E deals 175 damage for the first wave at level 5, but yes if you get hit by all three waves you get dealt 350 damage. And yes, many of his ability power scalings are rather high for a tank. But just getting a Rod of Ages doesn't give him the same damage as say, Darius who's a bruiser. Just because the numbers look good on paper doesn't mean they're good in game.

SlashStriker3 votes

Everything i do not mention I either dont care or with what you say i agree. For instance Tanks do deal too much damage but for them to do that they must be build Damage Only to do that. I don't have problems them to burst you but they must be build as glass cannon only

This is anti tank item - item 3508 ... ?????? Remove armor shred - How the fk do you counter armor? Remove % health item - how do you counter health? You must itemize correctly if you want to succeed

This MasterYi is the only champion came to your mind. So you mention Yi who deals Flat True damage based on his bonus AD and is pretty much forced to build AD to deal damage where many other champions got free stats. But you do not mention Vayne Vayne that deals % MAX HEALTH TRUE DAMAGE. Yi has to stack both AD and AS but Vayne is ok building only AS items and Silver Bolts is also a passive ability

MasterYi he got no burst like Veigar Talon Fizz , no CC, poor escape and is susceptible to ganks. Zed got Shadows, Fizz got 2 dash abilities. Leblanc brushy-brushy. Kata Jax Lee ward jumps. If you ask me his kit is lack luster. He is probably one of the champion with lowest LCS appearance

With his current Kit you take his True Damage away and his win rate with drap by half with probably less than 1% pick rate

Ekko Ekko and Fiora Fiora are Skirmishers. They are not squishy assassins. They suppose to balance between Offense and Defense.

LatetotheRace2 votes

"Now tanks can't even reliably tank due to new items that are quite honestly too strong." I didn't exactly say that it was an anti-tank item persay, but it's an incredibly strong item that gives marksmen a large advantage. 40% cdr goes a long way for their mobility.

No I agree that I could have mentioned vayne, but I mentioned her damage without directly naming her.

Yi is an assassin secondary fighter, and he absolutely shreds tanks too fast. The only reason he's an issue is because armor stops being relevant once he builds Bork for sustain and attack speed. The true damage is far too overbearing and could use some weakening.

Talon is in an okay spot but will always have that blaring problem of building AD and of course having auto attack + abilities. Veigar has infinitely increasing AP so he will eventually 1 hit anything. Fizz is aids and likely deserves either the dumpster or simple removal. Kat, lee, jax etc. Again let me reiterate that the problem with Yi is that his main damage output becomes true damage, which is lazy and disgusting from a balancing standpoint.

If you left his kit the way it is but without the true damage, of course he'd die. So a rework would be in order. (Not like it would take too long due to the simplicity of his design)

I put Ekko and Fiora in here because they were heavily abused due to high %health damage and could easily be built tank. As of lately, they haven't been that big of an issue, I just figured I'd mention them.

Wild Geese1 votes

Removing damage from tanks is just wrong, nobody is going to play tanks if you do this. You're already relying on your team so much by playing an Amumu or Malphite, but then you make them do no damage as well then nobody in ranked will pick them (even through they win games).

I agree with removing % hp true damage though, Having such a simple counter to all HP and Armor is ridiculous. Vayne - Completely rework her, she's always been a problem, toxic player base too.

LatetotheRace3 votes

Dunno, I think the first three season worked fine without tanks killing stuff.

Erockandroll2 votes

{quoted}

Dunno, I think the first three season worked fine without tanks killing stuff.

Tanks, need some base level of damage to deal with minion waves. If top lane tanks don't have that damage, they will get pushed in by Bruisers who will do the Tanks job better. Same thing with Jungle tanks, if you don't have the clear speed, the likes of Lee sin, or Elise will out level you. The only tanks that don't actually need any damage is supports.

And the reason this wasn't a problem in seasons 1-3, is because Philosophers stone and heart of gold were a thing. You could worry a little less about farm because your GP10 items had you covered. But now that Gold gen is pretty much Support only, you need to be competitive in the laning phase. If you have no laning phase, you have nothing.

And that's why Tanks need a basic damage level, and if Carries are dying to that, it's probably because they don't have a basic defense. (maybe cause their range and kiting are their defense.)

LatetotheRace2 votes
  1. item 3068 or item 3075 + Basic attacks are more than sufficient in pretty much every case.
  2. Damage against minions/monsters built into abilities are an effective solution to allow tanks to jungle/lane.
  3. Base damages (in most cases) are fine, it's when they have tank steroids built into their kits in conjunction to having scalings similar to that of a mage. (40-70%)
Atanchan2 votes

They made Sunfire and Thornmail starting items? I must've missed that.

Wild Geese1 votes

Back then you could actually build an adc with one defensive item. Hell, you could last year.

Blame the Juggernauts dude, the Juggernaut Items are all dumb and busted, benefit non-tanks and fighters more while giving the similar defenses The Marksman update probably didn't help either.

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