47% winrate, 2.3% pickrate sejuani is getting nerfed.

Dasdi96·Sep 1, 2018·102 votes·18,101 views

Meanwhile is over 53% winrate with 12+% pickrate. Riot can you not balance around worlds? This game is meant to be played not watched.

81 Comments

RekSai CoffeeCoSep 1, 201851 votes

Exactly one of the reasons LCS is not good for game.

XleeperSep 1, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=RekSai CoffeeCo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FTYBeqgb,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-09-01T00:33:03.794+0000)

Exactly one of the reasons LCS is not good for game.

Yeah let's balance for bronze/silver and not for people that actually know what's strong!!!

SaiannaSep 1, 20189 votes

Yeah, let's balance for 90~% of players than a group hardly taking 5-10% of playerbase. That seems like alot better idea.

HügöSep 1, 201810 votes

Hardly 5-10%? You are way to high. Diamond + is around 1% and lcs is like 0.0000001%.

SaiannaSep 1, 20181 votes

I didn't wanted to risk someone would start arguing with me that diamond+ is not 2%, but actually 2,0000000000000002% and how dare i not know those numbers by heart.

The irony is, now you made the argument but from the other side ;P

wildfox99Sep 2, 20181 votes

it doesn't make sense,a champion shouldn't be balanced around players that don't know how to play the game,it should be balanced for giving the possibilities as other champions offers when played at their best

ofc this is the case of pro players,but you are not nerfing/buffing something because of them but because the champion used propely is too strong (which is way easier to see in a elo where people are good at this game)

in short balancing around low elo would make the game even more unbalanced because something considered "balanced" could be actually broken if only the player uses his brain and/or master it and because most of the players at this level don't know how to counter/play around many things _ buf if we want to make an example (skip the italic part if you don't care) let's assume they buff around low elo Azir ,they make him strong in lane,give him a strong 1 vs 1 that can match people like zed and give him a lot of snowball potential_

he would be balanced in low elo where everyone oneshot each other and people play randomly (players mostly play alone),but if someone would actually invest a lot of time in learning to play him at his best he would be free elo because on top of what the hypothetical buff gave him he would still have a lot of safety,an insane lategame and he would still be a god in teamfights as long as he play with his team again most of the players at this elo often don't even know what teamplay is,but when it happens this champion would be way stronger than others and it would be unfair

also i don't know why you bring numbers,if this 90+% sucks (including myself) and this 10% is good why should the game level be lowered?

if anything this 90% should learn how to play and getting better

SaiannaSep 2, 20181 votes

everything boils down to 1 question: Are you making this game for players (as in casuals/newbies/bads/normies)? Or are you making this game for PROs.

If the first one, then PROs will abuse it
If the Second one, then PROs will still abuse something, but less, while rest of players will be eating dust for the most part.

Kinda similar question to who'd you save 1 person you know, or 10 you never knew. In this case matters are lil bit easier, because the players are the majority of this game and they make all of this work. They keep this game working.

also i don't know why you bring numbers,if this 90+% sucks (including myself) and this 10% is good why should the game level be lowered?

90% doesn't suck. Well majority of that 90% doesn't. They are just normal, casual players. Their skills are exactly what you'd expect from someone who plays for fun and relax. They do learn stuff slower overall, but their experience growth stops at gold V'ish (that's my guess, don't get pointlessly offended). Should they be stomped on by Riot, just because a super small group of people has to be constantly checked and balanced, because otehrwise they'll find a loophole they'd abuse?

You do understand that because of PROs our usable champion rooster is not even half of all champions we have? That's like 2 years of relasing champions totally removed from the game just because some korean with ability to click his mouse 59 times a second can pretty much obliterate anyone (who remembers Kog artillery move strafing between each of his shot)?

Tbh I'd just say: screw PROs. I am damn tired of them causing my mains being nerfed or pretty much removed from the game for few years.

Hemulen MagiSep 1, 201823 votes

This actually infuriates me. Sejuani Hecarim Shen are my favorite junglers, yet they keep getting shafted (Sej and Shen moreseo than Hec)... Talk about kicking em while they're down... It's really a shame, because I consider them some of the most fun and healthiest teamwork-focused champions in the game... There are so many other champions with toxic kits that are left with permanently extremely high pick and ban rates without nerfs... Sejuani doesn't even have a positive winrate in LCS.

By the way, I recently tried playing Sejuani and she legitimately feels like one of the weakest champions in the game. If she falls behind at all, she can't clear anymore, almost anyone can counterjungle her, and she doesn't feel tanky in fights. Succeeding with her feels like you need to put in way more effort than your opponents and get lucky enough to not lose your jungle and fall behind...

Also what is the point in even nerfing them for LCS? Just let them be played or banned by the LCS players. They are way more interesting and showcase teamwork and strategic play better than the other stuff that specifically gets buffed into the LCS champion roster... Although the whole LCS, along with other televised sports and streamed games, is boring by its very nature in my opinion... I am a person who would rather play a game than watch a "Let's Play" series, so I am probably never watching LCS no matter what.

PS. Balancing specifically around LCS ruins the sense of competitive fairness, because Riot is actually targeting specific competitive player's most comfortable/practiced champion picks. How well a small handful of players do with Shen doesn't reflect Shen's overall balance, because it could very well be true that Shen just appeals to team-focused players who are the only people who can thrive in LCS, and therefore LCS players are drawn to Shen and practice him more than other champions.

La BelloSep 1, 20184 votes

Hecarim being weak is a good thing. His entire design is the most one-dimensional anti-fun bullshit ever made.

Running at the backline abusing your MS=AD converter to just one-shot the squishiest target ad finum is not a healthy design and as of right now Kled does a much healthier job of delivering on the "Calvary charge" fantasy.

Basically Hecarim is practically the same as MonkeyKing in practical application.

Sejuani on the other hand was done wrong with her rework. Crappier Braum passive doesn't really scream "WARLORD LEADER" like was promised. I actually woudlnt be against a 5th rework or something by this point.

Hemulen MagiSep 1, 20181 votes

Hecarim is actually a diver, like Wukong, and they are supposed to deal some damage as fighters. However, champions getting 1-shot is an issue, but it's not an issue with divers. Squishy targets are too squishy, damage is too high in the game overall, and tank items are too weak so normally tanky champions are being forced to try to build burstier...

La BelloSep 1, 20181 votes

Hecarim was doing this BEFORE runes reforged.

IMO Riot needs to add some new effects to Hecarim

Turn E to Attack damage +% CurrentHP based on AD OR Movespeed (give this ability movepseed ratio same as Janna W)
Change Hecarim Warpatch passive to something that helps him survive in close combat. EXAMPLE: SPIRIT OF DREAD: "Hecarim steals 40% of incoming heals and lifesteal from enemy champions within 500 range of him"
Change W to have its duration extended if Hecarim remains in combat
add some sort of utility to Hecarims. Maybe the Spirit Riders from his R could break off and attach to people forcing them to leave behind a trail that grants extra AD or Lifesteal to Hecarims allies and himself so long as they stand in the trail (kinda like Noc Dusktrail)

If Riot could do that Hecarim would be fine. But keeping him the way he is currently where his E is literally like 70% of his damage and he is some snowball reliant feast of famine diver is pretty bad.

PapaGreg21Sep 1, 20182 votes

I've invested 5 skins in Sejuani and I feel like it was the worst investment I have ever made.

Hemulen MagiSep 1, 20182 votes

I only have Darkrider Sejuani, but yeah, it feels kind of bad having a skin on a champion that will disadvantage you to play...

RogueWillSep 1, 20181 votes

I have all sejuani skins.... I only can play her with my friends so they can cover me and won't flame when inevitably I will fall behind

NaqelSep 2, 20181 votes

I don't even get to play her since the rework, since she lost all her support viability.

Leto GTSep 2, 20181 votes

Make a post out of this. This need to be said. Teamwork champions are healthy and especially those.

WeenswSep 2, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=wG Got2Cool,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FTYBeqgb,comment-id=00040002,timestamp=2018-09-02T09:58:16.581+0000)

Make a post out of this. This need to be said. Teamwork champions are healthy and especially those.

Teamwork champions are toxic, players need to feel awesome, so you need to buff attacks and nerf defense. How do you feel like a hero if you need your teammates?

InfernapeSep 1, 201818 votes

Well I mean they did nerf Ornn when he was the worst champion for quite a large number of patches. Pro play fucks a lot of things up for casual players. Especially if they happen to like champions that unfortunately work in competitive.

VexingRavenSep 1, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Well I mean they did nerf Ornn when he was the worst champion for quite a large number of patches. Pro play fucks a lot of things up for casual players. Especially if they happen to like champions that unfortunately work in competitive.

And yet we can't nerf Corki who has been in basically every LCS game for the last 5 years. But we can nerf Sejuani because she got played well once in worlds?

jocomotionSep 1, 201817 votes

Quick list of champs who have been gutted for the sake of pro play.

Azir Ryze Galio Kalista Sejuani Karma TahmKench Shen Gnar Zoe Zac Ornn Taliyah was lucky to make a break as a Jungler.

I PT ISep 1, 20183 votes

But rip mid taliyah :(

chipndip1Sep 1, 20183 votes

I'll gladly have a Shen on my team tbh...at least a good one.

TranozeSep 1, 20183 votes

not Zoe . She just deserve to be gut at any play.

Moons of JupiterSep 1, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Quick list of champs who have been gutted for the sake of pro play.

was lucky to make a break as a Jungler.

I will ecstatically sacrifice the viability of all of those champions-- even my beloved gnar and TK, if it means that Zoe is unplayable trash.

BestPudgeNASep 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Quick list of champs who have been gutted for the sake of pro play.

was lucky to make a break as a Jungler.

"Zoe was gutted"

You what mate?

Unstoppable MonkSep 1, 20188 votes

Yorick Sejuani viable? WORLDS NERF.

Also Riot: "Why is no one buying our LC$ tix?" People aren't watching league, if they aren't playing league.

Dat KatSep 1, 20187 votes

I don't understand why does the game split into two different categories, its true form and LCS.

Like . . . why can't LCS be the GAME itself being played rather than being a different entity of some sort.

NY64Sep 1, 20185 votes

{quoted}

I don't understand why does the game split into two different categories, its true form and LCS.

Like . . . why can't LCS be the GAME itself being played rather than being a different entity of some sort.

Because then the majority of players would end up playing a completely different game than the pros. Imagine watching soccer and you see the best players doing all these cool things that motivate you to play it with your friends.

Except when you play with your friends you have completely different rules that it doesn’t even feel like the same game the professionals are playing.

Personally I wouldn’t like having two different versions of the game but with how many champions get screwed over by LCS, I think I’d rather just want two different versions. I just want to play Elise,Sejuani, Tahm,Shen,Gnar,Poppy,and Ornn without feeling like I’m garbage and wasting my time with them.

Trias000Sep 1, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Because then the majority of players would end up playing a completely different game than the pros. Imagine watching soccer and you see the best players doing all these cool things that motivate you to play it with your friends.

Except when you play with your friends you have completely different rules that it doesn’t even feel like the same game the professionals are playing.

That's actually the case. There are no offsides in amateur play, for example. No referee either, so fouls are rarely called. The play field and goals are often smaller. You also play differently - you don't usually make sliding tackles, don't use formations (since it's even seldom 11 vs. 11). When you play basketball you often use 1 basket instead of 2. All that doesn't stop us from enjoying those games by both watching and playing.

YracoSep 1, 20184 votes

That really depends on where you're playing, are you going somewhere specific to play those games where you can meet other people or are you just getting a few friends together in a garden?

Even in non-professional play games like football and basketball the exact same rules are used that mean you'll be playing the exact same game where you get called out for breaking the rules; the only time those rules don't apply is if you're getting some friends together for a small game.

The equivalent in league would be having custom games that you can change the balancing since you will almost always be on a full metaphorical football pitch due to matchmaking being 5v5.

inplaneSep 1, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Because then the majority of players would end up playing a completely different game than the pros. Imagine watching soccer and you see the best players doing all these cool things that motivate you to play it with your friends.

Except when you play with your friends you have completely different rules that it doesn’t even feel like the same game the professionals are playing.

Personally I wouldn’t like having two different versions of the game but with how many champions get screwed over by LCS, I think I’d rather just want two different versions. I just want to play Elise,Sejuani, Tahm,Shen,Gnar,Poppy,and Ornn without feeling like I’m garbage and wasting my time with them.

I don't give two hoots about pros in any game. They're completely irrelevant to me and serve no purpose other than to encourage narcissistic elitism amongst the casual playerbase and encourage incessant complaints simply because people can.

chipndip1Sep 1, 20182 votes

A ton of people wouldn't like that.

KrullySep 1, 20187 votes

its amazing how ahri mains shriek and recoil to the very notion that their champion is (very clearly) over powered.

Neptunia xoxoSep 1, 20186 votes

Ahri is nowhere near a problem in the current meta. quit circle jerking when it's literally because her play rate is high which makes her win rate high it's already been talked about by riot in the past.

ChalizardSep 1, 20184 votes

What?

Neptunia xoxoSep 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

What?

? Do I need to explain it?

Votable JesterSep 1, 20186 votes

Yes, how does her having a high play rate cause her to have a high win rate? That doesn't make sense as far as I can tell.

ChalizardSep 1, 20185 votes

How is that possible, that anybody claim that high pick rate means high win rate? With that logic, jhin with 25% pick rate and 51% win rate is a really weak champion.

Neptunia xoxoSep 1, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FTYBeqgb,comment-id=0010000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-01T11:28:13.498+0000)

Yes, how does her having a high play rate cause her to have a high win rate? That doesn't make sense as far as I can tell.

Well for example last season for a while Amumu had a 55% win rate and 11% play rate in plat + he even got buffed as well during this and his win rate started to drop due to his play rate since his play rate dropped from 11% to 5% dropping his winrate from 55% to 48%. This is why gaming companies do not try to balance around high win rates if the champion / hero has a high play rate. Nobody in high elo thinks Ahri is strong and actually the top mid laners think Ahri is very weak right now compared to many other mages and assassins.

Votable JesterSep 1, 20181 votes

Can you tell me which patches you are comparing? I don't really feel like looking through them all for this.

Neptunia xoxoSep 1, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FTYBeqgb,comment-id=001000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-09-01T17:38:48.243+0000)

Can you tell me which patches you are comparing? I don't really feel like looking through them all for this.

Literally all of season 5 and 6.

Votable JesterSep 1, 20181 votes

That doesn't allow for great comparison. I imagine there were numerous indirect nerfs to him then that impacted his win-rate (which then impacted his play rate).

Unless you point out specific patches for me to compare I'll be left with this explanation.

Neptunia xoxoSep 1, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FTYBeqgb,comment-id=00100000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-01T18:30:57.614+0000)

That doesn't allow for great comparison. I imagine there were numerous indirect nerfs to him then that impacted his win-rate (which then impacted his play rate).

Unless you point out specific patches for me to compare I'll be left with this explanation.

? there were 0 indirect nerfs lmao that's just how these stats work. If a champions play rate is high then more than likely the champions win rate will be high as well.

Votable JesterSep 1, 20182 votes

That makes literally 0 sense. More people playing a champion would logically only reduce that champion's win rate.

More players means that more of them will be inexperienced with the champion (usually) and thus more likely to mess up, reducing their win rate. Enemies also become used to playing against that champion and are better able to exploit their weaknesses, again dropping win rate.

I think you have cause and effect mixed up here.

d9u7c1anhSep 2, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Neptunia xoxo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FTYBeqgb,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2018-09-01T07:23:13.356+0000)

Ahri is nowhere near a problem in the current meta. quit circle jerking when it's literally because her play rate is high which makes her win rate high it's already been talked about by riot in the past.

? So high playrate mean high winrate...What? I thought that is a opposite. Example: Anivia, ASol.

CaveslothSep 1, 20184 votes

I'd be sad, but I stopped playing her after that mini rework gave her that "blue balls" style stacking mechanic and that awkward as hell skillshot.

hhaavviikkSep 1, 20184 votes

''we think Sejuani has had her time in the spotlight so we're nerfing her'' meanwhile lee sin who gets buffed almost every year just so he gets shoved in the spotlight some more

BlåbæretSep 1, 20184 votes

Sejuani was one of my favorite champions. LC$ has completely ruined the champion. The balance team is nothing but a joke; I'd be ashamed to be one of them.