Does Ryze need a kit rework?

John Berserk·Aug 8, 2014·5 votes·1,324 views

Honestly, I'm unsure. On one hand, his gameplay pattern is pretty much exactly what Riot DOESN'T want in a Champion (literally all point and click abilities you cant dodge), and there isn't much you can do against a Ryze other than don't go near him (or shut him down early and dont let him get to lategame).

On the other hand, his spell machine-gunning gameplay style has become arguably the most recognizable thing about Ryze overall. Take that away or change the way his kit works, and you're risking his identity greatly.

He's not exactly in a bad spot right now either, at least in terms of balance, but regardless, do you think Ryze needs a kit rework to rid the game of such a simplistic and powerful playstyle that has very little counterplay? Or do you think it to be too risky, with his gameplay being too much a part of who he is?

21 Comments

12talesAug 8, 20144 votes

Ryze is the mage to Ashe's rogue and Garen's fighter - not only should he be considered in the context of overall balance, but also in terms of his ability to introduce new players to the 'mage' role. It wouldn't really make sense to give him a complex, difficult to use kit when he's supposed to be intuitively usable by people with no LoL experience.

So long as he isn't a balance concern, I think the whole 'Press Q for damage' sort of playstyle he has should be kept.

MrSc0ttyAug 8, 20141 votes

I would argue that Annie, or Lux fills that role better than Ryze. Ryze is weirdly tanky and doesn't deal "tonz of damage" like either of those do.

12talesAug 8, 20141 votes

I mean, Annie and Ryze are both 450 for a reason. 'Press this button to deal damage,' 'press this button to CC,' etcetera. Ryze is the one you play in the tutorial, though.

MrBuffingtonAug 8, 20141 votes

Lux is kind of a harder mage to pick up since all her abilities are skill shots. Annie is a good beginner champion, though, it can be difficult to get used to her stun mechanic or casting certain skills, like Tibbers.

HexflashedAug 8, 20141 votes

"newbie champs are suppose to be ez" is part of the reason why they can never be balanced. Sticking to this counter intuitive philosophy will only result in power creep, being boring, or incredibly under powered in the midst of balancing them throughout the game. You're essentially ruining and stunting these champions potential for higher level a play while throwing them in the trash can after "newbie" status when you stick to this bad "newbie" design philosophy.

League isn't even hard enough to warrant a newbie champion. Go play DoTA 2 and tell me which is harder to manage (and what's more confusing).

Darth KittiAug 8, 20141 votes

True Dota is a harder game to get into than league, but I can tell you from first hand experience that coming into league having never before playing a moba, league is confusing as heck. I am glad that Ryze is in the game, it made it a hundred times easier to learn the game when his entire kit is essentially click here and they die.

WorgslargAug 8, 20142 votes

If they changed him from a point and click mage, they would have to give his range massive buffs for any hope at viability. I see trouble in reworking him to maintain the bursty, button spammy feel that he has, but with skillshot q/w's. I feel that he is fine as is, because he is one of few mages with a very low range. If you want to counter ryze, send a long range skillshot mage against him.

John BerserkAug 8, 20141 votes

That is definitely something Riot should consider. I wonder how they feel about him, though. As I mentioned, they care a lot about counterplay, and Ryze has pretty much none (other than keeping your distance).

Do you think they could possibly find a way to make him more engaging for more experienced players while still keeping his beginner-friendly gameplay intact? If they were to change him, I think that's something they would definitely have to do.

12talesAug 8, 20142 votes

He's also got a pretty abusable cooldown on his W, limited CC before level 10 or so, and absolutely no mobility pre 6. All that on top of his very short range and extremely expensive build path make him a relatively straightforward champion to play against, in my opinion.

Sure, you can't avoid his damage if you get within 600 range, but that's problematic to about the same extent that Caitlyn's auto attack range is - there's more to playing against a champ than just not taking damage.

OrinneAug 8, 20141 votes

I think it's more a problem with Riot's weird balancing philosophies that retroactively claim that half of the abilities in LoL are bad design, in addition to mediocre attempts to balance out the meta outside of "bruisers and fighters should go top, while casters and assassins should go mid" as opposed to Ryze himself.

SunfieldAug 8, 20141 votes

I think he is a pretty balanced champion that can be used effectively in all levels of play. Isnt it the perfect champion design?

John BerserkAug 9, 20141 votes

I would argue that Ryze is actually the opposite of "perfect champion design", at least going by Riot's supposed champion kit design philosophies, which have a strong emphasis on counterplay. In terms of power (damage output and scaling throughout the game) he is more or less balanced, and yes he can be used effectively in most levels of play, but still he offers little to no counterplay other than "stay away from Ryze", nor is he that fun or satisfying to even play (mostly unsatisfying because I don't have to work at all to do what I do with Ryze).

SunfieldAug 9, 20142 votes

Sure his kit doesnt fit Riots design policy, but he is a champion with clear weaknesses, easy to tune down if he steps out of the line and just as easy to buff if he falls behind.

Sure he might not be the most satisfying champion to play but he has an estabilished playerbase and thats more than many champions have

HexflashedAug 8, 20141 votes

The "mash your keyboard" game play obviously needs to go. Ryze is probably the worst offender for this, but I'm more concerned with the top 10% FoTM champions that are dominating the meta. Button mashing is boring, but picking only 10% of champions in the LCS (and sometimes solo queue..) is even more boring.

SunfieldAug 8, 20142 votes

Do you want to scare off new players? Because thats how you scare off new players.

And 10% is just not true.

PharrøwAug 8, 20141 votes

Honestly the way he works is almost wholly unique. He is fine as he is, just needs visual updates and perhaps a base MS buff.

Raven FilthAug 8, 20141 votes

i agreed with u about the Visual Updates <--

PushoverAug 8, 20141 votes

I don't think Ryze needs a complete rework. He is simple to pick up, yes, but he is a champion who is difficult to master. Little decisions such as whether to cast E first or W first can change Ryze's damage output significantly, as does ordering spells. A new player who just goes QWERQ isn't going to be doing too many big things with Ryze. Ryze has a low skill floor (most people can at least do OK), but a high skill ceiling. So there's a lot of room for a Ryze player to improve.

You could make a note that Ryze is too powerful at 40% CDR, since with Seraphs and RoA, that's the point where he gets a little out of hand.

Raven FilthAug 8, 20141 votes

I dont see Ryze strong at all at least in Mid Lane , top maybe , but in midlane his very weak agaist most of the other mage's, for beginners use ryze is kinda meh. annie is better options for a beginner to start , ryze is more like spellvamps cd down freak with mana benefit , his short range cant be play as normal mage mastery and ap , becaise other champs have the advantage on range. now annie in other hand she does everything a mage would do and build. i believe that ryze should get some range , about top cant kill ryze that a lies , ryze have soo much to lose because counter items like , banshee veil and summoner spell : Cleanse can remove his W everyday even if he atk with a Q first his first spell lose u will able to get close to him and destroyed him since his very low on health unless his RoA is max out. or late game. i dont know that's my opinion . oh and exhause help alot so make him lose his full burst combo. there lots of way to counter him, but again in midlance his too under agaist other mage's.

Sire HippingtonAug 9, 20141 votes

I think he could use a rework, but definitly should retain the low cd fastcast spell-spam. however, i think his W either needs to become a skillshot to offer counterplay, or he needs to become a bit more combo reliant with evt less burst but more ramping up damage, like less damage on E, but also less cd and a stacking mr-shred.

But his ult or flash into cage offers pretty no answer than staying way back and spamming longranged stuff. On the other hand, there is little ryze can do vs enemys that stay way back and spam longrange stuff as he's short ranged with very limited mobillity, so i think the Cage as Skillshot, besides beeing very similar to lux/morgana, would fit best, as it would allow him to land it on longer range to find an engage vs poke champs, while it's at the same time possible to avoid his cage with low-midranged champions

DecaedeusAug 9, 20141 votes

Ryze has meaningful weaknesses; most notably, his short range and low mobility. Counterplay comes in the form of poking him down, and plenty of mid laners have the ability to hold him at a distance. I don't think he needs a rework, as he has clear play and counterplay pattterns that aren't Kassadin-level abusive.