Should dashes be affected by slows?

John Berserk··109 votes·5,933 views

(I made a thread with pretty much the exact same topic before a couple of weeks ago but I let it die because I think I posted it when I didnt have the time to respond to it and keep it alive, so I'm trying again)

To many people it seems, mobility creep and mobility in general is becoming a problem. Out of the 33 champions that have been released since the beginning of 2012, 28 of them have some kind of dash, speed up, or blink to get them dancing around the Rift. Considering the most recent 4-5 champions (Braum Gnar Azir Kalista RekSai) see either a pick or ban in nearly 100% of pro games, that may just attest to how crazy some mobility on some champions have become over time. Also take note that the mobility of these champions comes in the form of dashes, which seems to be by far the most common mobility among recent champions, and it also seems to provide the most options.


So how do I propose dashes, one of the most common forms of mobility, be dealt with? Well why not have slows affect them too? Not 100%, as that would probably make them completely irrelevant and just shut out champs with dashes completely, but instead maybe at a smaller percentage.

How exactly would dashes be affected by slows? I think it'd be best to have the actual animations slowed by a small percentage. The cooldowns would remain untouched by slows, but in the case of quick, short-cd dashes Yasuo, the dash animation would have to be completed before the next dash animation could be initiated, otherwise we'd get some weird animation breaking hijinks on certain champions.

So let's say slows affected dashes by, idk, 50% (not the exact amount im proposing, just an amount for the sake of an example). Slowing a champion with a 30% slow would affect their MS by 30%, but it would affect their dashes by only half of that, which means their dashes would be 15% slower.


I personally feel like this could lead to some interesting balance options for certain champions, as it would give more power to slows in general, and thus to champions with slows that lack mobility themselves (coughAshecough). But enough of what I think, what do you think about this idea? Do you think it's a good one? A bad one? If you see any problems with it, what would you propose to do to fix it?

106 Comments

ProfDrDeath36 votes

Dash speed is definitely a more likelier candidate to be affected by slows than dash range. Riot doesn't like things that change ranges, as those things tend to be rather unobvious and mess with people's learning patterns of champions too much.

SecretAgentHulk7 votes

For sure, this is a far better solution. I honestly have no idea if it would break the game or not, but I'd be interested to see Riot try it, unlike the slow-nerfs-range idea.

Grouchy Poro3 votes

Same here. It'd be interesting to see slows become useful again on 'gotta go fast' type champions. It would also be cool to see speed up abilities used to lessen slows and thus dash faster since they won't be as slow as they would be.

Kingsgrave1 votes

{quoted}

Same here. It'd be interesting to see slows become useful again on 'gotta go fast' type champions. It would also be cool to see speed up abilities used to lessen slows and thus dash faster since they won't be as slow as they would be.

It would possibly outright destroy Riven.

Would make it even harder to play Tryndamere because his E is already pretty damn slow as is.

Would no doubt be a huge nerf to Renekton.

NoFunWithNunu2 votes

{quoted}

It would possibly outright destroy Riven.

Would make it even harder to play Tryndamere because his E is already pretty damn slow as is.

Would no doubt be a huge nerf to Renekton.

the thing most of you just think in meta/popular champs and their balance, not thinking that in first place, the solely existence of champs like riven, renekton and tryndamere, detroy "lesser" champs.

Without a good teamcomp based in easy cc and decent damage, a riven will pentakill your team everytiem you guys group or just dash to her safety, like she does nowdays even with decents amount of cc Renekton will dash TWICE into your helpless MF, ashe, varus and do high damage (thx riot for buffing this dick resourceless champ) while soaking damage. Tryndamere has counterplay but have you seen how tryndamere can be dominant in solo Q even if he dosnt dash?

and so on, why not work in non popular champs instead of popular, renekton was ok before, now he has a damage buff that is hardly taken against anyone in the early lvls and late game

Kingsgrave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maokai is Dank,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U1jZg1Pu,comment-id=00080000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-17T13:25:53.812+0000)

the thing most of you just think in meta/popular champs and their balance, not thinking that in first place, the solely existence of champs like riven, renekton and tryndamere, detroy "lesser" champs.

Without a good teamcomp based in easy cc and decent damage, a riven will pentakill your team everytiem you guys group or just dash to her safety, like she does nowdays even with decents amount of cc Renekton will dash TWICE into your helpless MF, ashe, varus and do high damage (thx riot for buffing this dick resourceless champ) while soaking damage. Tryndamere has counterplay but have you seen how tryndamere can be dominant in solo Q even if he dosnt dash?

and so on, why not work in non popular champs instead of popular, renekton was ok before, now he has a damage buff that is hardly taken against anyone in the early lvls and late game

These champs don't function in a vacuum none of these champs are honestly broken or problematic

If you punish all those who have dashes the meta will favor literally anyone with a slow

NoFunWithNunu1 votes

{quoted}

These champs don't function in a vacuum none of these champs are honestly broken or problematic

If you punish all those who have dashes the meta will favor literally anyone with a slow

yes, thats why we see flashy riven plays in every week from weekly plays, because she is not toxic enough, slows reducing dashes would sorta fix the mobility that plagues league, ofc they can still flash and make you eat their burst, you are sacrificing a high cooldown skill for 220-500 gold and maybe the chance to take a tower, imo is a risk worthy, i will not check but i bet you play high mobility champs, thats why you downvoted me

Kingsgrave2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maokai is Dank,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U1jZg1Pu,comment-id=0008000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-17T15:01:08.671+0000)

yes, thats why we see flashy riven plays in every week from weekly plays, because she is not toxic enough, slows reducing dashes would sorta fix the mobility that plagues league, ofc they can still flash and make you eat their burst, you are sacrificing a high cooldown skill for 220-500 gold and maybe the chance to take a tower, imo is a risk worthy, i will not check but i bet you play high mobility champs, thats why you downvoted me

Shes fun to play for a lot of people.

NoFunWithNunu2 votes

{quoted}

Shes fun to play for a lot of people.

nope just nope, she is played because the power she has, the resourceless and the movement she has, same along with zed and lee sin, you are just either trying to troll or plain blind

mi ramfan9 votes

Playing with animation lengths and ranges is a really poor way to balance, it just makes those champions clunkier to play without actually making them less mobile.

There are better ways to help immobile champions than this, and I'm not even sure this would help all that much. I mean, sure, there'd be a patch long adjustment period where Lee Sin and J4 mains failed combos they used to land every time because their dashes were slowed down. But what about after that? They'd just get back to doing the same things they used to do, with essentially no change other than "they're a little clunkier now".

John Berserk3 votes

I think the problems with Lee Sin go a bit deeper than his dashes and slows affecting him or not, something deep down in his kit. He warrants a totally separate discussion imo.

mi ramfan3 votes

Lee Sin and J4 are just examples, substitute an example of your own if you like.

I'm all for discussing anti-mobility mechanics, but the mechanic you propose isn't anti-mobility, it's just anti-smoothness and anti-clarity. Stuff like Azir's wall and the terrain creation abilities are cool anti-mobility mechanics that add depth to the game. This mechanic just makes the game harder and more confusing without actually solving the problem.

John Berserk6 votes

I would like to think of it as anti-mobility. CC should be the answer to mobility imo, and while stuns and knock ups and knockbacks are all fine and good in stopping high mobility, not everyone has access to those things, and those that do are the ones picked to counter high mobility champions.

Most champions with at least one form of CC have it in the form of a slow (at least im pretty sure, but I could very well be wrong about that). Those with slows but no other form of CC are pretty powerless against high mobility champions, and I think giving slows some sort of interaction with the most common form of mobility outside of normal movement is at least a step in the right direction when talking about how to counter it.

KaisadiIIa1 votes

Playing with dashes speed is a good idea though: they shouldn't be different than movement speed boost.

You say Lee would fail combos because his Q would be slower... well, if you can't time well, you will fail combos with Evelynn because they slowed you. Also, Yasuo's E is affected by slows and he has not been destroyed by that, it's actually healthy since champions like Anivia can actually counter his mobility if they do well.

ValyrianBlade6 votes

Interesting discussion.

I'm not sure slows would work on most dashes. Aren't some instant? Either way, they're a lot faster than normal running and they're going to cover the same distance. I think that's the key here, even if someone is dashing away at 15% reduced speed, they're still getting that much distance covered really quickly.

I think it would make more sense for slows to reduce the range of dashing abilities. Perhaps a 30% slow reduces the range of all dislocation/dash/blink/etc... abilities by 10%.

Although admittedly I have to wonder if this makes slows OP. I think most dashes are damaging offensively rather than defensively, so perhaps adding a mastery deep in the defense tree which negates this would be a reasonable work around to allow tanks to still have their dashes (if they have any) while making it viable counterplay to assassins.

John Berserk5 votes

I'm not sure slows would work on most dashes. Aren't some instant?

As far as I know there aren't any instant dashes. Thats the main difference between a dash and a blink. There are some that are REALLY fast like Leblanc's W, Irelia's Q, and Akali's R, and then there are (near)instant blinks such as Ezreal's E and Zed's W. There are other dashes and blinks that require a bit more time to "set up" so to speak, but the actual travel between point A and point B is what determines if it's a dash or a blink.

I think it would make more sense for slows to reduce the range of dashing abilities. Perhaps a 30% slow reduces the range of all dislocation/dash/blink/etc... abilities by 10%.

This makes a lot of sense. I like this. I say it could/should do either both this and my idea of increasing the time it takes to complete the dash, or just your idea here of decreasing the actual range of the movement. It also makes some practical sense, as a slow is something that would make movement take more effort. Having someone perform a long jump with weights on is obviously going to decrease the distance they go.

CC of all kinds should be the counter to mobility, in some way, shape, or form. The reason I like your idea of reducing the actual range as opposed to just the time it takes to complete the animation is because it can be easily applied to other forms of mobility, not just dashes.

Auz the Ripper9 votes

Speed isn't the only thing that defines the difference

Champions dashing will be affected by anything they move through, like Veigar's event horizon, where as a blinked champion will not.

Dashes also can be interrupted by other displacement effect whereas blinks cannot be interrupt by anything except death, even then the blink usually completes and teleports the corpse

A dash physically moves the champion through all points in between their current location and the target location A blink moves the champion from point A to point B with no interaction from the map

Sightless666 votes

I don't like the idea of slows reducing range. Range is one of the most jarring statistics to screw with, and with so many champions having slows, it is entirely possible for the % that I'm slowed to change a massive amount second to second, making it very hard to know what my skill will actually do when I use it. That only gets worse when you factor in the large number of items that can grant slows (Randuin's, Frost Queen's, Twin Shadows, Righteous Glory, BotRK, Rylai's, Gunblade). It would be unbelievably frustrating to play with. It's also a really, really hard counter to certain champions, but almost every champion has access to it. From both a balance standpoint and a "is this fun" standpoint, I don't think this idea has any merit.

If slows should interact with dashes at all (and I'm not convinced they should), dash speed would be a better margin because even the fact that they're traveling less distance in the same period of time gives you more opportunities to attack them or react to their attack (although it would mess up animations and sound-syncing, so from a technical standpoint it would be a nightmare). Probably better to just give up on the idea and find a better solution, such as ensuring that immobile champions are given strong mechanics and uses that mobile ones can't replicate.

AbodyHUN6661 votes

Not to mention targeted dashes, when you want to hit someone with Akali, Xin you shouldn't be stopped halfway without an option to keep fighting.

NoFunWithNunu1 votes

{quoted}

Not to mention targeted dashes, when you want to hit someone with Akali, Xin you shouldn't be stopped halfway without an option to keep fighting.

the thing is targeted dashes usually are linked to stronger fighters/damage dealers, akali can deleted you less than 5 secs, xin with few ad can either delete you or leave you really low plus he has a slow on his gap closer, either flashing he has a chance to hit you after flash, way worse if he has botrk, dashes have counter play, but require really good reflexes and certain champs to stop them Janna Gragas Alistar Ahri Morgana just to mention some

viken6 votes

Interestingly enough, Yasuo 's dashes are already affected by slows Its cast time scales with movement speed, which is pretty much exactly what you're talking about.

John Berserk3 votes

That is true, I completely forgot about that.

Perhaps they can make a bit of a unique exception for him then, and for other champions that have certain mobility abilities that are affected by movement speed (Like Hecarim). It'd be on a case by case basis for those.

Owntrolf1 votes

{quoted}

Interestingly enough, Yasuo 's dashes are already affected by slows Its cast time scales with movement speed, which is pretty much exactly what you're talking about.

No are you high, It doesnt scale off movement speed

John Berserk6 votes

They are actually. At least his bonus ms.

"ACTIVE: Yasuo dashes 475-units in the direction of the target enemy, dealing magic damage and marking them briefly. The speed of the dash scales with Yasuo's bonus movement speed."

Joe Dredd5 votes

Nasus becomes the truest of freelos

Mikal Pikal3 votes

I would love to see kallista hop slowwwwwwwly away in a futile attempt to not get stacked.

Dangerous Man3 votes

They aren't affected by slows? Now I know .-.

Hard Penetrator2 votes

Would be nice if they started from putting cc on a full duration after dash. You should not cut cc by 1/4 or 1/3 while moving. Also dashes and blinks priority should be worked on because its pure bullshit when blitz grab ez and ez reacts after cc just to blink away. Dashes should have lower priority than cc.

Leona dash is fine because it actually do things right.

Mathbalnase2 votes

Regardless of any merit of the rest of this post, Ez has a teleport, or 'blink', not a dash.

Hard Penetrator1 votes

Here you are, feeling much better now?

Mathbalnase1 votes

Blinks work differently from dashes, so it's important to distinguish between them. So, yes. Also note the 'regardless of any merit in the rest'. I actually agree with your main point, in principle, but it's important - if you actually want things to be changed for the better - to read as though you actually know the subject.

RIP Tahm Kench1 votes

Blinks do with differently from dashes, but blinks don't "specifically" ignore cc. It's really the cast time that allows cc to be ignored. Like take for example Trist's jump, it's functionally a dash, but because of the delay from the cast time, she can ignore cc just like Ezreal.

Serage2 votes

The complete game would be imbalanced. You would have to change ALL heros. The whole balance process would start at 0!

Quort2 votes

Pfffttt... NO! Then they'd be just as useless as speed boosts! Instant or dash mobility is an extremely important and beneficial part of the game that is fun and provides counterplay. :3

KaisadiIIa1 votes

I hope this is sarcasm.

Quort2 votes

It wasn't obvious enough? Then I have failed in my mission! Q.Q

BakedLotion2 votes

Riot can't nerf their all-mighty lee sin. How will he make LC$bigplay$ if his dashes were shorter or slower ???

Orangesilk1 votes

For that to be balanced then dashes should be affected by movement speed boosts too, imagine a Kalista with Lulu buff, you're getting pelted by spears while she dashes HUGE dashes around, and pix is tickling you.

junglerboy161 votes

Kalista's Dash already is affected by move speed, getting more MS makes your dashes longer up to a cap.

Mathbalnase2 votes

I was under the impression that kalista's dash was affected by boot tier, not MS.

junglerboy161 votes

I think you are right, I confused them for the same thing.

KaisadiIIa1 votes

As long as you can land a slow on her and thus counter it, I have no problem with it.

The current problem is not that her dashes are powerful, the problem is that her dashes are powerful AND YOU CAN'T SAY NOTHING TO STOP IT.

DUDE BRO1 votes

Kalista's dash speed is reduced by ATTACK SPEED SLOWS, not movement speed slows.

If you've ever player kalista and the enemy team has frozen heart, randuins, or other attack speed slows, you'd know exactly what I mean. Since she can't move until finishing her attack, getting her attack speed slowed makes her less mobile than ashe. Try it.

Mathbalnase4 votes

Ashe has 0 mobility from her kit and the same MS as Kalista.

A Kalista with an AS greater than 0 has more mobility than Ashe. A Kalista with an AS of 0 has the same mobility as Ashe.

Are1 votes

Some dashes are affected by slows. If you play Akali, Riven, Lee, Trist, you'll notice that when you use your mobility move, it doesn't go as fast when you're slowed. Conversely, when you have a MS buff, you move a lot quicker. It's just not that noticeable when you play against them. A dash is pretty much just a burst of MS to one targeted area.

John Berserk2 votes

Is that actually how they're programmed though? I was under the impression that dashes were completely separate forms of mobility from normal movement, in terms of the coding used for both.

KaisadiIIa1 votes

Dashes aren't affected by slows. They are programmed to move a champion from A to B at a set, invariable speed. There is only one dash that is affected by movement speed and that is Yasuo's E iirc. Also, Yasuo's E is the only one you can actually stop with CC (if you CC another champion while dashing they will complete the dash while stunned).

John Berserk1 votes

Malphite's ult is also affected by slows (technically his MS at the time he casted his ult).

Shixma1 votes

Speed ups should definitely be affected by slows, although the blink type of dashes shouldn't, that would completely ruin them. Ahri's ult would become almost useless, she relies on that to retreat and initiate, she already gets shut down by stuns. (Sorry if speed ups already get affected by these, I'm new to the game and don't know if they do :x)

Champion Skin2 votes

Speed ups do get affected by slows

Ehh... Ahri's ult isn't a blink type of dash Examples of blinks are... Flash summoner 4 , Kassadin Rift Walk (R), Ezreal Arcane Shift (E) The advantage of blinks are that they can't be interrupted mid way by things like Azir wall (or other knock backs or knock ups) Blinks can also go through things like Veigar Event Horizon (E) without getting stunned

Most CC is skill shots so dashes are a good way to avoid getting slowed or stunned in the first place if you are good enough with your champion and if you are able to out play your enemy

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