Gbay99 summed it up pretty well.

Photos of Ghosts·Dec 2, 2016·45 votes·3,085 views

Autofill sacrifices two out of three factors in queue health to bring back what had been sacrificed to include role selection.

45 Comments

AptestDec 2, 201611 votes

(a) the assertion that queue times in bronze were 2-3 min is** factually incorrect** the actual number is 8-12 min. (b) the video asserts that one of the functions a matchmaking systems are supposed to provide is "role selection" this has no basis. this assertion is artificially injected into the video as a made up required function to bolster the video's pro-role selection bias by erroneously asserting that by putting auto fill the matchmaker is giving up an important function. whereas in reality there is no specific importance that matchmaking provides "role selection". (c) the old system was better. Because it gave better, more fairer matches. (d) match quality loss is temporary. People used to be able to support, before everybody became yasuo OTPs due to role selection. Most people will learn support again. (e) the amount of toxicity and "meta enforcement" with new system is significantly higher than in old system. "role selection" system is strictly inferior.... unless you're a pissy mid lane player who absolutely has to play his assassin.

CowseedDec 2, 201618 votes

A - Bronze queue times are 8-12 minutes?....

https://youtu.be/WcWM_1hBu_c?t=54s

LankPantsDec 3, 20165 votes

He's not wrong, there's a point in bronze 5 you can reach where your elo is so godawful the the system can't find matches for you at all. This guy is not there however, he's Silver 5, so he's just talking shit.

AptestDec 3, 20163 votes

i am not talking about bronze 5 i am talking about bronze 1 and silver 5

and the numbers i state is what i personally measured.

the idea that queue times directly correlate with your league bracket is utter B.S. because outside of edge cases (master+,bronze5-) the queue time is determined NOT by how many players exist but by the proportion of supports to non supports.

rtbf225618241Dec 3, 20161 votes

To be honest, to be so low you should get an award. I couldn't get there even if i tried without trolling really hard.

MhihnjDec 3, 20162 votes

you should get trundle and bard free

EternalShredDec 3, 20161 votes

Last season i spent 5 months climbing from bronze 5 to silver and i would have to wait for atleast 8 mins most of the time, sometimes i just gave up and i put support / fill as my roles cuz i dnt want to wait no more

HazyCloud7Dec 3, 20165 votes

12 min queue time in bronze?

hahahahahahahahahahaha

Gnart Even CloseDec 3, 20163 votes

fancy words do not a good argument make

AptestDec 3, 20167 votes

claiming that an argument is shit does not constitute a refutation.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Gnart Even CloseDec 4, 20163 votes

I wasn't refuting any single point, I was trying to point out that just because you're using vocabulary that shows intelligence, your argument isn't necessarily valid. If you want me to address your arguments instead, then I can certainly do so.

Half of what you said is flat out false (i.e. 8-12 minute queues in Bronze, I played in Bronze this season and had 2-5 minutes q times), and the other half is very much opinion based (whether role selection should be part of a matchmaking system). Furthermore, you show signs of toxicity and bias when you're talking about all the Yasuo OTPs. Most people are better at one specific role than all their off-roles. The fairest matches will always be when people play the role that most accurately reflects their rating, and getting in an off-role will never lead to good games.

Is there anything else you would like me to clarify?

DeathTheHorsemanDec 4, 20161 votes

Damn son you summoner 11 & summoner 14 him

Gnart Even CloseDec 4, 20161 votes

An enemy has been slain. Double kill. Triple kill. Quadra kill. PENTAKILL!

AptestDec 4, 20161 votes

8-12 minute queues in Bronze

This is what I personally measured, playing in bronze 1 and silver 5. This is not an argument but rather a statement of fact. You are the first person to say I am mistaken and therefore i will grant you that you measured a different number which is possible.

whether role selection should be part of a matchmaking system

The video refers to this as a service a matchmaking system is "supposed" to provide. there's no reason for it to provide or to not provide this. Whether it should or should not provide role selection is of-course my opinion but it does not change the situation that the video uses a baseless opinion here.

The situation that the video's opinion here is baseless, and yet it uses it as a basis for a follow up argument, means that his follow up argument is also with out basis.

Furthermore, you show signs of toxicity and bias when you're talking about all the Yasuo OTPs

if you don't get a piece of humor that's on you.

the fairest matches will always be

the fairest matches will always be when the skill ratings of the players in the game is tightly clustered.

when people play the role that most accurately reflects their rating

In a situation where people must play mid from time to time, the skill of playing mid is an integral part of everybody's skill measurement. If you are a vayne bot OTP your skill is not accurately measured by your ability to play vayne.

The addition of auto fill shifts the measurement of skill from "me in my role" to "me in all roles". to claim that "me in my role" is your actual skill in this scenario is simply false.

Is there anything else

do YOU need further education?

Gnart Even CloseDec 4, 20162 votes

I'm fairly certain you're lying, because nobody else here supports you on the 8-12 minute Q, all of my friends who play in Bronze have 3-5 minute Q, and several other people are calling bullshit on it. You're entirely destroying your credibility by saying I'm the only one saying you're wrong on this.

The notion that role selection should not be part of a matchmaking system is kind of ridiculous. In any game with dedicated roles, people are going to fight over roles. Reducing conflict over this is a basic goal of any system. Toxicity in champ select has always been a problem, and reducing toxicity is good. Unless you're trying to argue for more toxicity in the game, then there really isn't any reason to argue for a lack of role selection.

It's funny you're talking to me about humor, because you can't seem to appreciate how much of a joke your argument is.

It's funny how in any real competition, like the pro scene, people play dedicated roles. It's really odd that they don't have the jungle main play ADC, and the ADC play top lane. I really thought that was the best measurement of skill.

Sarcasm aside, there's no reason that the person who's rating shows them at Diamond 5 as a mid lane main should be forced to play support, which they can only play at a Gold 3 level, as opposed to their Diamond 4 level mid lane. Playing an off-role seriously screws with match quality, and there's no real way to adjust for it in the matchmaking system since you can't account for trading roles. People are only going to play one or two roles at a level close to their rank, and the other roles will simply be them trying their hardest to not lose the game for their team.

Well yeah, we always need more education. There's never a point where you should stop learning. I imagine from your pretentious vocabulary, you think you're some sort of genius. Your argument is shit, as literally everyone has told you. Now don't get me wrong, I understand that sometimes you can be right while everyone else is wrong, but that is not the case here.

If you want to make a case for autofill, the argument lies in Q time and health. That's really the only positive side of autofill. Forcing people to play a role they don't want to play only promotes toxicity and trolling, since people don't like getting screwed over by the system. They really should be focusing on making more people want to play support rather than forcing people to play it. The lack of people playing support really is the biggest problem. We need more people to be support mains, and as close to a 20% distribution for each role at each rank in order to have the healthiest queue. If this were the case, we could even have people q up for just one role and never have autofill except at the highest level play where there simply isn't enough players to play without it.

AptestDec 4, 20161 votes

I'm fairly certain you're lying, because nobody else here supports you on the 8-12 minute Q

So far I've read quite a bit of support to my assertion, and I am certain you have also.

by saying I'm the only one saying you're wrong on this

You are attempting to fabricate a false story here. Your story is: aptest is a liar and a cheat. We know you are talking out of your ass so how about you try arguments instead?

Toxicity in champ select has always been a problem, and reducing toxicity is good

My experience is that, following role selection, toxicity in champion select has increased, not decreased. However your experience may be different. Regardless this is off topic to what we are discussing.

In any game with dedicated roles, people are going to fight over roles

There is a difference between what a matchmaking system may or may not provide, and what it must provide. Fair games - not just in the sense of a 50% win but also in the sense that all players must have reasonable levels of agency within any specific game - are a must; Queue time is probably very high on the list also at least from Riot's perspective. Role guaranteeing is not.

the proof that matchmaking works well without role guaranteeing is that it has for several years. So role guaranteeing cant be treated as a must have feature.

I really thought that was the best measurement of skill.

Skill is a much wider concept than you are regarding it to be. If you are measured by your ability to play Gragas jungle AND your ability to play Riven top, your skill is not just the subset of Riven games where you are matched against teemo. Your Gragas games are part of your skill, not some interference keeping you from climbing.

I guess there's a choice here - should the game be built on narrow skill expression where restricting the conditions under which skill is determined to the absolute minimum is the thing to do, or to have a game where generalists have a different kind of power?

People are only going to play one or two roles at a level close to their rank

the only reason people are showing such a large difference in skill is because they have been allowed to hyper-specialize. once you disable people's ability to spam riven 24/7 every game, they will pick up gragas just fine.

That's really the only positive side of autofill.

As a support main, I have 2 dogs in the race: 1, without auto fill i get to play with many teams which are not in my skill level. their waiting has brought about a situation where i am either over-skilled or under-skilled in relation to the team and both cases are not fun for me. 2, i advocate for the "secondary fill" people who want to be able to play support from time to time without having to force themselves into picking support as a primary role. And auto fill helps a lot with that.

The lack of people playing support really is the biggest problem.

i have a very specific opinion here that you can read in other threads. support role has a lot of power, but it lacks agency and some of it's power is locked into activities which are not fun.

the two biggest sources of agency is having a mobility ADVANTAGE over the other guy and being able to 1v1 the other guy. the other, more team centric agency sources are heavily gated by team cooperation.

unfortunately we can't make support lulu or sona chase talon and fizz around the map and nuke them to extinction. So we cant buff the satisfaction of playing support there.

The other things we can do is remove some of the gates that supports have to their agency. some factors in the game outright reduce the ability of support players to be independent. specifically, the vulnerability of ADCs to getting jumped by anyone.

then again the price for changing THAT is that all ADCs will kinda be like vayne. and do we really want that?

the second issue is the whole un fun activities issue. namely warding, but also healing and shielding for some playes.

NymzoDec 3, 20163 votes

Riot just needs to rework the support role.

That alone will fix the queue's problems.

I hope for the community's sake and their own sake that the next class rework is the support.

Otherwise, be ready for an... interesting season.

TeCoolMageDec 3, 20161 votes

I'm pretty sure it's either diving champs, offensive tanks or defensive tanks.

NightmareAmazoXDec 3, 20161 votes

Divers Update is next on the list. Along with champions like Warwick Galio Akali Urgot are going to get reworked.

DeathTheHorsemanDec 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Divers Update is next on the list. Along with champions like are going to get reworked.

Thing is Morderkaiser and Evelyn will get reworks before Akali (she is 5+ reworks away so 2018)

deadlychuckDec 2, 20162 votes

Riot's idea of moving forwards seems to be moving 3 steps back, to justify the 2 steps forward in a different direction.

Riot can do what they want too with their game, but at some point they need to recognize that their vision for it has been warped too far from the public preference for the game.

Troy242621Dec 2, 20162 votes

People that used to main X and side support. We just get support 90% of the time, so we take support out, risking us playing our third best role, and reducing the # of supports in queue.

Also, why would I EVER play Flex if I could just play with other solos and duos?

HazyCloud7Dec 3, 20161 votes

Yeah but it results in a worse experience for literally every other player that does not play support secondary.

The Yetii RiderDec 4, 20161 votes

Thing is, by forcing more players to play support, Riot will create new support mains. There will be people who just don't like support because they don't try it, and then after they're autofilled a few times they see "oh, this isn't so bad actually". Then the queue times will actually get shorter because you have more people choosing to support.

MasterOfMetaIDec 3, 20162 votes

lets see who gets deleted next [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

Photos of GhostsDec 3, 20161 votes

Funny thing is I didn't have the time to read even a single one of those xD

MeleeNukeDec 3, 20162 votes

I would love to play support more often if I get equal gold and experience...

EternalShredDec 3, 20162 votes

If Riot just makes the support role more attractive and appealing that would fix so many problems

ARequestOfDeathDec 3, 20161 votes

Why is there a haunter in on the video before play

Photos of GhostsDec 3, 20161 votes

cuz autofill = spewki

Photos of GhostsDec 3, 20161 votes

...wp mods :^)

Mira Arya EntheDec 3, 20161 votes

Gbay99 is capable of criticizing Riot?

Miku AppendDec 3, 20161 votes

I'd rather sit for a few extra minutes in Gold to end up with an ADC who is comfortable with their role and a support that knows Sighstone exists. JFC Riot...

Karn BishopDec 3, 20161 votes

sight what now? you meant cinderhulk right?

LegalisskullDec 4, 20161 votes

Just my 2 cents: Even though there are a multitude of factors that will contribute to a game win, the overall most important factor is damage. I realize that at first this sounds rather subjective, but when you take the time to think of the fundamentals of the game it makes sense. For example, even if all the CC and peel coming from a support player is what allowed you to get a kill on an enemy player, damage is what literally got the kill. Damage takes towers, inhibitors, jungle minions, minions themselves, and the nexus. It all comes down to damage.

Personally with the support role this is what causes me to find it an unpleasant experience to play support. I may do all the right things that my role typically does (peel, CC, block skill shots, etc...), but if one of my other team members doesn't back me up and provide the damage then it was all for naught. I do realize that there are cases where people pick AP mage supports or something of the sort so it's not as relevant of an argument there (just recently had a game where a 2-6 lee sin support 100-0 me as a 7kill something adc); however, i'm speaking to the majority of games where people will be playing support classified champions and building the support oriented items (everyone has experienced AP sona's burst :P).

I don't have an answer or solution due to the fact that fixing this particular point of contention for support players would require completely redesigning the support role, and I don't really see that happening. There is a reason why supports are meta for bot lane. They, when in coordination with an ADC, will often times beat out kill lanes or non-meta bot lanes. This doesn't change the fact that on their own supports often times do not have the one necessary tool for accomplishing most things in LoL, damage.

AMYS GRAVEDec 4, 20161 votes

I mean, people wanted dynamic queue reverted to the old solo duo queue with a seperate 5s queue, and now they are slowly moving back to that. Getting forced into a role is the repercussions of going back to the old queue.