@Riot: Ardent Censer needs a pretty big buff (and I've got an idea)

Wolfeur··7 votes·922 views

NOTE: This is a re-upload of my previous discussion that fell into oblivion.

So, I've watched the first TIP vs C9 game and I couldn't help noticing that neither Soraka nor Janna bothered to buy item 3504 although they are the champions that synergize the most with the item. Ardent Censer is in desperate need of buff.

#Why is Ardent Censer bad There are several problems with the item:

  1. It isn't slot-efficient
  2. The bonus damage doesn't scale with level or AP
  3. It misses the opportunity to make a great "improve heal" item

##Slot-efficiency Let's compare it to Zeke

item 3504 Cost-efficiency: 105.86% (+50 per teammate buffed) Cost-efficiency with it's buff on the whole team: 305.86%

item 3050 Cost-efficiency: 115.78% Cost-efficiency with it's buff active: 347.69%

As you can see, Zeke's cost efficiency is always better than those of Censer, and although it's buff is less controllable, it is also easier to get, since multi-targets heals and shields are quite rare and are often ultimate abilities (Soraka's wish, Janna's monsoon, Karma's defiance, etc). In addition of having a bette cost-efficiency, Zeke is also more expensive, making it a lot more slot-efficient.

I think that the worst about Censer's slot-inefficiency is caused by its awful lack of AP, causing AP supports not to like it. 40 is just not enough for a complete item. Adding 20 AP and raising its cost by 200 golds would put it in a better place with a base cost-efficiency of 115.56%, basically the same as Zeke. Also, since it gives more AP than Zeke, it gains a reason to be bought before it.

##Feeling its power: scaling is important There are a lot of items to buy before Censer seems appropriate: you need the usual gold gen, tier 2 boots, sightstone, pinks, Zeke. And since it activates by using abilities, you also need a lot of CDR to make the best use of it. Plus, it doesn't synergizes with anything but CDR, since nothing on the buff scales.

Prioritizing this item gives you nothing another item can't give, except the buff. But you forgo so much by not taking Zeke first: 10 AP, 35 armor, and a big steroid for your ally AND yourself (while Censer can't buff you), without mentioning the lack of CDR (you probably are at 20% once you bought it). Conversely, taking the item later makes the buff less useful, due to its lacks of scaling. In short, the item never feels good to buy, due to its lack of raw stats and scaling.

In addition to more AP, the on-hit damage should scale with level, like Locket's shield. This makes the item more interesting to buy once you got your usual stuff.

##Identity: for better heals and shields I always thought there was a missing mechanic in League: a heal-boosting item. Ardent Censer is THE item for healers and shielders (at least, it's supposed to) and it feels logical that this item fulfills this mechanic. However, I know that the way League deals with heals is a bit different that what we usually see in video games, and for a good reason. But there is a way to make this happen without contradicting Riot's intents for heals: add a third effect to the buff of Censer's passive, a purely-AP-scaling shield (about 15-20% AP). That way, shields become purely stronger while heals, although more effective in fights, won't give more sustain in the lane, avoiding then the problem of passivity due to too good sustain. Finally, it's power stay limited by the non-stacking of this shield, since it comes from the same buff. But imagine Soraka, healing and refreshing the shield, Janna's monsoon shielding its team every tick of heal or even Locket synergy.

##In summary The changes in three points:

  • Better raw stats and efficiency: +20 AP, +200 golds
  • Better feel: on-hit damage scaling with level
  • Better identity: buff gives AP-scaling shield

12 Comments

Duke Anax2 votes

I don't understand the downvotes either, the reasoning is solid and i partially agree with it.

I used to buy Ardent censer on Soraka and Alistar, but it doesn't feel worth it to me anymore.

For Soraka that really depends on AP it doesn't have enough and since Alistar can't buff minions anymore it feels lacking. even when he buffs teh entire team with his heal the damage feels lackluster.

The lack of scaling makes it an earlygame item that supports can't get early gam e unless they go in a sololane. But there it is even less usefull because there they have no target for it.

What I'm not sure about is the shield. AC is an offensive boost item, giving it a defensive boost as well might be too much.

However as you said, with Zeke, we now have another offensive boost item that competes with Censer. So what they could do is turn AC into a complimentary defensive boost item.

It could for example increase the effect and give a shield to healers and a heal to shielders.

Wolfeur1 votes

I'm glad to see someone is finally on my side.^^

I hear what you say about the shield and it's true that it might be too much. There are many ideas on this thread and they can all be taken separately. I agree with the problem of competition Zeke and Censer have by being two offensive support items, and maybe reworking Censer as a more defensive item would be more interesting, making it actually different in use than Zeke. However, I'm not sure Riot would like to add a heal on shields, I'm afraid it could give too much power to supports that aren't supposed to heal (and imagine Sona that has a heal and a shield on the same ability).

Professor Ward2 votes

Sona is the only person this is close to usable on as you can get possibly 5 procs off every few seconds, making it probably the most cost effective item in game based on your math.

Bonipherus1 votes

You got a +1 from me. This item is #179 in both item popularity and win rate... that's disgusting. Ardent is an atrocious item and I don't know why people would down vote this thread when you explain exactly why it is so bad AND present such a good idea for fixing it. I'm actually going to suggest you repost this to the boards (with updated info of course).

Wolfeur1 votes

Thank you, it feels good to have support on my ideas.^^

(but I'm wondering how I got three comments in an hour 2 month after I posted it)

Bonipherus1 votes

I was googling the item and this thread came up.

Athenes Lulu1 votes

To be honest I would love to get that every game, because it has almost everything a Lulu support needs, at least according to my playstyle.

People don't build it because it's not priority, it's more of a little luxury that would be nice to have when someone has spare change.

I have used it on allies and they did tell me they felt a difference in attack speed. However, compared to other support items, it seemed pretty underwhelming. A little buff (and better feel + identity) like you mentioned wouldn't hurt, and brings more love to it. "A big buff" might sound a little too misleading in your title, but the general direction is good.

Cindikle1 votes

Stat boost is reasonable.

Bonus scaling shield is not needed. Kind of a double dip. Probably not a great idea.

Making the damage scale would mean they'd have to weaken the early game damage it brings. Static damage numbers often work that way.

What if the damage boost also effected towers? It would make it a good siege support item if your team is lacking in that area. It's a niche effect as very few champions can shield/heal multiple targets at once and would build the item(No, Lux wouldn't).

Perhaps a defense mechanism would also work. Making it a utility/personal defense item. Like an Armor/MR boost when below 30% HP+high HP/5 boost. Something the squishier supports really could use.

Wolfeur1 votes

What if the damage boost also effected towers?

It doesn't? Holy shit, this item needs a buff even more than expected...

It's a niche effect as very few champions can shield/heal multiple targets at once and would build the item

Karma, Janna and Soraka on their ultimates, Sona shields in AoE and Nami can heal two allies with their W. In general, it's kinda niche but for AP supports, it's quite standard.

Cindikle1 votes

Not 100% sure on that. But I don't think it does.

I meanly mean the siege buff I suggested. A team wide 25% AS buff isn't that big of deal when not as many actually AA. But doing this on a tower while giving everyone bonus damage could be something you can build a team around. Burning an ult for this effect can also be quite costly.

While it's already niche. Usually you just need to focus on giving the buff to the ADC or another champion who's doing a lot of AA(an Olaf for example). So a single buff is fine.

Krinu1 votes

Actually... when you combine the percentage movespeed buff with the flat bonus from coin's passive, you're almost at T2 boots level of movement. If they raised it from 8% movespeed to 10-12% movespeed, you could actually build Ardent Censer instead of boots on champs that use coin.

Wolfeur2 votes

You still kinda need boots of mobility for roaming, plus considering that the support that uses coin the most is Soraka, who needs as much movement speed as possible.

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