I would like to remind everyone that Jhin is not the problem
It's Stormrazor.
Even Kai'sa moved from her Guinsoo's rush build to Stormrazor, and she was already doing really well with that build. That should really say something.
91 Comments
Jerry SeinfeId16 votesNah ofcourse it ain't jhin. Any other champ abusing an item it's their fault but God forbid jhin turns out to not be the Pinnacle of adc design.
It's not his first time abusing shit either and not just stormrazor. There's also hail of blades.
saltran8 votesKai'Sa goes 
because Rito has been nerfing 
as first item along all this season (a good idea imo) and they also nerfed her Q interaction with 
so she doesn't heal as much as she did on release with Q.
But you have to keep other fact in mind to understand why does Kai'Sa go StormR first: with just and she is able to upgrade her Q AND E, this means that she gets a massive power spike at 2 items that it's not comparable to the intended users like 
that all go as first item because the path that they used to build (
into Zeal item into
) is atrocious after the 8.11 crit items change.
This topic needs a more deep view than just "LOL Kai'Sa builds StormR nerf that"
And regardless Jhin, he IS the problem, to be more accurate: the interaction between his passive and is a problem that only appears on him out of all adcs.
On Spring 2017 was really strong and one of the reasons was that her passive interaction with 
gave her too much single target dps in teamfights (because she stacked the Headshot too easy due to the Runaan's bolts on others targets)
And you know what they did? They removed the interaction with her passive and Runaan, not nerfed all Runaan users by gutting the item.
They just need to tweak the interaction between Jhin passive and StormR.
Barcid20 votesJhin is not the only problem. Stormrazor is a "win more" item similar to Duskblade.
Once a champ builds Stormrazor, the speed boost is universal and doesn't care who's using it - just because Jhin breaks it doesn't mean other champs don't abuse it.
If you're behind versus Stormrazor, unless you can put a wall between you and the assailant, you will be chased down.
If you try to turn, they will just outrun you.
It's not just Jhin. Having 
- really, any ADC ever that builds this nightmare of an item - hound you until the end of time because they stagger their autos a bit just to keep chasing you is a god awful way to have to play the game.
Stormrazor basically allows the ADC that's ahead with it to choose when they want to fight you. It is not a healthy item in the slightest.
saltran20 votesLucian with StormR LUL
Yep, it's the Gameplay Boards.
Barcid9 votesOh hey, you pointed out literally one ADC of that group that doesn't commonly build Stormrazor.
So what's your comment on the rest of them then? Or were you just going to overlook that tidbit?
Poske2 votes[{quoted}](name=Toxic Control,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FAHHFA23,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-23T12:03:23.105+0000)
Oh hey, you pointed out literally one ADC of that group that doesn't commonly build Stormrazor.
So what's your comment on the rest of them then? Or were you just going to overlook that tidbit?
The entire premise of thread where people assume that jhin is ridicilus is hilarious, I mean the thread isnt as ridicilus as "TANK CRIT TEEMO ISNT OP ITS THE RABADON WHICH IS OP" but still I chuckle at people who find jhin good
None above dia1 thinks jhin is anything more then Tier 4 ADC
This is how botlane meta looks like
Tier 0 Kaisa
Tier 1 Varus, Xayah, Draven, Yasuo, swain
Tier 2 Jinx, Irelia, Vladimir
Tier popular no matter what Ezreal
Tier overated Jhin, Vayne ( as of recently)
Illabethe1 votesThere's a difference between when players see as OP vs what they see as uninteractive play. By nature, if you can't 1v1 it on the champion you are playing, it's uninteractive...... which is frustrating. Jhin is one of those. A large portion of the champ base is not interactive with Jhin. You either have to group to kill him when he doesn't have a front line protecting him, or you have to be a stealth assassin who can kill any adc.
Most of the other adcs you mentioned don't have that discrepancy or at least only to some degree.
Kai Sa can be engaged by anyone (as long as she's near a minion wave it's usually possible)
Varus needs to stack his Guinsoo's, and a large portion of his damage is avoidable.
Draven's gotta pick up axes, and is countered by long rangers.
Yasuo can be engaged to some degree before he's fed/farmed. Swain is not an adc.
Jinx is only toxic once she has items.
Irelia is subject to punishment pre about level 10.
Vlad is subject to punishment until about level 11.
Ezreal is engage-able by anyone until he has an Iceborne, and even then, it's just when the champion is countered by line of sight slows.
Jhin has a massive 1v1 fight. It's his team fight that struggles.
Daddy Ants8 votes[{quoted}](name=Toxic Control,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FAHHFA23,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-09-23T10:42:53.440+0000)
Jhin is not the only problem. Stormrazor is a "win more" item similar to Duskblade.
Once a champ builds Stormrazor, the speed boost is universal and doesn't care who's using it - just because Jhin breaks it doesn't mean other champs don't abuse it.
If you're behind versus Stormrazor, unless you can put a wall between you and the assailant, you will be chased down.
If you try to turn, they will just outrun you.
It's not just Jhin. Having
Stormrazor basically allows the ADC that's ahead with it to choose when they want to fight you. It is not a healthy item in the slightest.
https://champion.gg/champion/Vayne/ADC https://champion.gg/champion/Lucian/ADC
They build BoTRK.
Now I'm not defending Stormrazor in anyway. I also believe it's a toxic item and has no place in the game, same for 
StDouchebag2 votesDidn’t they make stormrazor to give marksmen some strength again? Pro teams were taking xerath adc because actual marksmen were garbage. Marksmen can actually be viable again and strong because of this item, so either nerf other items or just leave it and fix duskblade first.
Monstermushmush3 votesKai'Sa goes
But you have to keep other fact in mind to understand why does Kai'Sa go StormR first: with just
This topic needs a more deep view than just "LOL Kai'Sa builds StormR nerf that"
And regardless Jhin, he IS the problem, to be more accurate: the interaction between his passive and
On Spring 2017
And you know what they did? They removed the interaction with her passive and Runaan, not nerfed all Runaan users by gutting the item.
They just need to tweak the interaction between Jhin passive and StormR.
why is this downvoted so much?
saltran2 votesBecause it makes sense and I'm trying to argue with the Gameplay Boards which is a mistake, let me edit my coment to suit better the context.
Edit: JHIN IS THE ONLY GOOD DESIGNED ADC NO BRAINDEAD RIGHTCLICK NO MATTER HOW MANY GUINSOOS OR LETHALITY OR STORMRAZOR HE ABUSES HE IS THE PINNACLE OF DESIGN BECAUSE 4 JOKES HA HA HA NERF EVERYTHING BUT HIM.
The Great Divide1 votesPretty much
Limrick8 votesHow many items does Jhin have to break wide open for people to accept that their perfect husbando isn't actually flawless after all? The man has abused Lethality, DFT, Guinsoo's, HoB, and now Stormrazor. Maybe, just maybe, it's Jhin.
FutureCreator1 votesIt's usually his weird interactions with said items, not necessarily the champion itself.
PB4UAME6 votesThe weird interactions that only he himself has as part of his champion, you mean? God the double think around Jhin is fucking unreal.
IainG102 votesSort of; I'd say it';s more the case that the idea behind his design is ok, but Rito engineers keep forgetting to take him into account on item balance. The easiest option would be disable item interactions on him and then add them in in post, rather than assuming he's a normal ADC, but Rito will never let one of their recent babies be behind because of their design... Flashiness>gameplay apparently
The Great Divide1 votes"But his design and kit are just soooo fun, cool, and interactive. Learn to play. 4444"
-Every Jhin main ever
The steam life1 votesHow many items does Jhin have to break wide open for people to accept that their perfect husbando isn't actually flawless after all? The man has abused Lethality, DFT, Guinsoo's, HoB, and now Stormrazor. Maybe, just maybe, it's Jhin.
Guinsoos was a coding issue not a numbers issue and even then only relevant at 5-6 items, hail of blades isn't meta. Dft wasn't abused he just couldn't use anything else and so you're left with 2 things where one of them (lethality) was abused by many champs not just jhin.
Need Gold 4 Tent2 votesHow many items does Jhin have to break wide open for people to accept that their perfect husbando isn't actually flawless after all? The man has abused Lethality, DFT, Guinsoo's, HoB, and now Stormrazor. Maybe, just maybe, it's Jhin.
Somehow this comment gives me deja vu 
Kristina Karo1 votesJhin had a winrate lower than 50% for most of the time since 2017, if not since 2016. Only at very specific times he had a chance in the game and he could never(and maybe he will never) compete with kings of jukes and massive-dmg like tristana, vayne, ezreal. In the times of stormrazor Jhin had 49% winrate and after some months dropped to 48%. The idea that people cried about Jhin because he abused Stormrazor("abused", if that's abusing you guys never seen what abuse means in this game) is just sad. Now, after stormrazor change, Jhin still has 48% winrate and he is a tier 4 adc. Cry about Jhin abusing stormrazor while Kai'sa was literally destroying everyone and now Jinx has 55% winrate.
Limrick1 votesYou're replying to a 5 month old comment buddy... And yes Jhin has undeniably been broken in the past, especially when this post was made. He's an extremely popular champ with a high mechanical demand and massive playerbase. Obviously his winrate will suffer for it.
TwitchInMyPants8 votesFrankly Stormrazor is busted for the same reason Duskblade is busted
Riot fucked up the balance and released an overtuned bandaid fix of an item and its now a staple of the role
If you suck ass early game as a carry you rush Stormrazor so you aren't useless, it falls off later but since 90% of games are decided early-midgame it ends up being dominant on a lot of champions
The logic is similar with Duskblade albeit more midgame centric, modern assassins aren't killing things on their own with Youmuu or Edge of Night and they no longer have a stacking Bloodthirster like old school League. The only thing that might compete with it for its combo ability is Ravenous Hydra and that's more loaded in defensive stats. Duskblade is everything an assassin needs to deal with their nerfed midgame, a big true damage proc, it kills/disables wards so your ganking is easier, and its a giant ball of ONLY OFFENSIVE STATS. So few finished items are only AD.
Honestly I wonder when we're going to see the item that makes a mage get a bunch of true damage on the first spell they cast in combat because that's currently the pattern we're seeing
Illabethe7 votesNo. It's really Jhin. He's already went through 4 major reworks, directly and indirectly to deal with his blown up scalings. And all of them were from different sources:
-
Janna Shield on Jhin: Created a cyclical formula that gave him 900-1220 AD in Season 7. Result: Cyclical interaction fixed, Janna reworked.
-
created a cyclical interaction with Jhin, which when fully charged after its rework, was adding about 126% to Jhin's AD when fully charged. Was left active in the game for 10 WEEKS. On Full charges, his grenades were hitting over 2400 damage, and his Crits were getting over 4000. Guinsoo's is STILL the most gold effective item in the game after its rework, and does significantly more damage than any other incarnation in the last 7 years of the game. Result: Cyclical interaction was eventually fixed, and Guinsoo's price went back up 200g.
-
Stormrazor: Ditto. I don't need to go into this one.
-
Hail of Blades: Who would have thought that 75-125% bonus attack speed wouldn't result in once again...... a cyclical amplification of Jhin's damage? It's once again put back in the damage that was lost after the Guinsoo's fix.
I'm not saying that Stormrazor's move speed isn't a problem too; it is. But Jhin has been the direct cause of the interaction problems.
The steam life1 votesNo. It's really Jhin. He's already went through 4 major reworks, directly and indirectly to deal with his blown up scalings. And all of them were from different sources:
Janna Shield on Jhin: Created a cyclical formula that gave him 900-1220 AD in Season 7. Result: Cyclical interaction fixed, Janna reworked.
Stormrazor: Ditto. I don't need to go into this one.
Hail of Blades: Who would have thought that 75-125% bonus attack speed wouldn't result in once again...... a cyclical amplification of Jhin's damage? It's once again put back in the damage that was lost after the Guinsoo's fix.
I'm not saying that Stormrazor's move speed isn't a problem too; it is. But Jhin has been the direct cause of the interaction problems.
Janna's shield gave him equivalent dps to other adc's and was not cyclical. Guinsoos only manifested late in the game and was a coding issue not a numbers issue. Hail of blades isn't meta and is only a viable option compared to fleet and is again not a cyclical issue so like hmmmm. And he's never been through a major rework except for guinsoos which only fixed the item interaction so idk where you were goin with that.
Illabethe2 votesJhin's Passive amplified Janna's AD boost and still does. But it used to be multiplicatively. You are horribly wrong there.
Guinsoo's was not just a "late game" problem. With JUST a Guinsoo's he was scaling up to 420 AD. Late game was well up to 1336 AD....
Hail of Blades isn't meta?
https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Jhin/
Tell that to the 61% + Jhins who pick it. Not only is it the Highest Pick rate, but it's the only rune that is pulling above 51% Win rate.
The reworks weren't to Jhin. The reworks were to items/buffs Jhin USES, and ALL of them were significant.
You really don't have a clue what you're talking about, and you proved with with the Hail of Blades comment.
The steam life1 votesJhin's Passive amplified Janna's AD boost and still does. But it used to be multiplicatively. You are horribly wrong there.
Guinsoo's was not just a "late game" problem. With JUST a Guinsoo's he was scaling up to 420 AD. Late game was well up to 1336 AD....
Hail of Blades isn't meta?
https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Jhin/
Tell that to the 61% + Jhins who pick it. Not only is it the Highest Pick rate, but it's the only rune that is pulling above 51% Win rate.
The reworks weren't to Jhin. The reworks were to items/buffs Jhin USES, and ALL of them were significant.
You really don't have a clue what you're talking about, and you proved with with the Hail of Blades comment.
yikes you need need help
AmazoX6 votesAnd people say it was made for Assassins....
LTK KoRo2 votesPeople on boards are also complaning about Duskblade and Zed, i wouldn't take them seriously
Slim Gragas5 votesMaybe you ADC mains shouldn't of cried as if nothing should be nerfed about that role until you got Stormrazor to make up for 8.11. We know that Riot has a sweet spot for treating ADCs especially from the influence that many popular streamers who main ADC have, but perhaps it was too far making this item. Its not that we hate you, it's just that we wanted other roles to have the same amount of influence as ADCs did back then.
Daddy Ants14 votes[{quoted}](name=Slim Gragas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FAHHFA23,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-09-23T09:19:22.467+0000)
Maybe you ADC mains shouldn't of cried as if nothing should be nerfed about that role until you got Stormrazor to make up for 8.11. We know that Riot has a sweet spot for treating ADCs especially from the influence that many popular streamers who main ADC have, but perhaps it was too far making this item. Its not that we hate you, it's just that we wanted other roles to have the same amount of influence as ADCs did back then.
"Other lanes want more impact"
Let me sum up season 8 in 3 words...
Better Jungler wins
LTK KoRo2 votesSure, it's true, since Jungler have the biggest impact in early and they can basically decide which lane is going to carry.
But on the other hand, no one really liked pre 8.11 ADCs when game was: "team carries adc until 20 minute, adc carries team after 20". It's kind of sad we're going back to ADCs being the uncontestable lategame force.
saltran1 votesAs an adc main I wanted adc nerfs, but I never wanted to open the botlane to braindead double mages botlanes that just push with no risk without going oom, I cant believe that at some point on 8.11-12Heimer-Fiddle botlane was meta.
And that's why I really like this meta, even if I still have some complains about reworked ER or Nashor going down too easy.
LTK KoRo1 votesThere was a "braindead double mage botlane" in Heimer and Fiddle but lanes like Swain&Pyke were completely balanced, and i would like to see Swain be playable in bot again.
Hard shoving mages like Azir should be a big no-no in botlanes, but guys with weak early like Swain, Vlad or Cassio should be playable bot.
WoΘxer1 votes[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FAHHFA23,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-09-23T15:35:47.211+0000)
Sure, it's true, since Jungler have the biggest impact in early and they can basically decide which lane is going to carry.
But on the other hand, no one really liked pre 8.11 ADCs when game was: "team carries adc until 20 minute, adc carries team after 20". It's kind of sad we're going back to ADCs being the uncontestable lategame force.
That's not true.
LTK KoRo1 votesTell me what's wrong then.
WoΘxer1 votes[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FAHHFA23,comment-id=00020000000000010000,timestamp=2018-09-24T13:17:26.579+0000)
Tell me what's wrong then.
It's all about the players, if they playing safely until their power spike they are winning without the jungler, but if they are constantly camped by enemy jungler, indeed it's on the hands by your jungler. Game is decided who ever makes less mistakes or currently whoever one shots in one cc.
LTK KoRo1 votesWell, that's true. Part with the jungler is true too, and that's what i wanted to say basically
Jungler can decide which single lane can win, by camping it. And current game is decided by mistakes, yeah, but in terms of damage or teamfighting prowess, ADCs are dominating after 20 minutes if no one snowballs out of control
Slim Gragas1 votes"Other lanes want more impact"
Let me sum up season 8 in 3 words...
Better Jungler wins
Im aware of Jungler having the most impact, but ADC is about right there with them because of adding these ridiculous items like Stormrazor. Just because you can name one ADC who doesn't first buy Stormrazor doesn't mean its not broken as shit on most of them.
Oleandervine1 votesADCs were literally nerfed into unviability this season. There was about a month or two when it was more profitable for your team if you took a mage into the bot lane, as crit based ADCs asphyxiated from the expensive costs of their items and the super awkward power spikes afforded by the new Infinity Edge.
Stormrazor was added to give ADCs viability again. However, in typical Riot fashion, they then un-nerfed the pricing of crit items and other ADC items after deciding the nerfs hit them too hard, and then didn't nerf Stormrazor. Stormrazor was strong so it could over compensate for the void left by other ADC items, so naturally it would be too strong once Riot buffed other ADC items again. That, and it's ability to be picked up and abused by any bursty AD assassin/diver, means this item should honestly have been heavily nerfed or removed entirely.
Slim Gragas1 votesADCs were literally nerfed into unviability this season. There was about a month or two when it was more profitable for your team if you took a mage into the bot lane, as crit based ADCs asphyxiated from the expensive costs of their items and the super awkward power spikes afforded by the new Infinity Edge.
Stormrazor was added to give ADCs viability again. However, in typical Riot fashion, they then un-nerfed the pricing of crit items and other ADC items after deciding the nerfs hit them too hard, and then didn't nerf Stormrazor. Stormrazor was strong so it could over compensate for the void left by other ADC items, so naturally it would be too strong once Riot buffed other ADC items again. That, and it's ability to be picked up and abused by any bursty AD assassin/diver, means this item should honestly have been heavily nerfed or removed entirely.
Idk why you explained the backstory for it, it's broken and needs to be removed regardless, you just went more in depth as to why the item got made. Because they wanted to compensate for ADCs losses like i said, whether they reduced the cost of crit on other items or not its still broken especially on certain champions.
0 Hogapu5 votesThis is wrong.
Jhin abuses Stormrazor, making him a problem. Therefore, Jhin is the issue. Otherwise, every champion using Stormrazor would be an issue.
Daddy Ants5 votesThis is wrong.
Jhin abuses Stormrazor, making him a problem. Therefore, Jhin is the issue. Otherwise, every champion using Stormrazor would be an issue.
Jinx rockets critting even on runaan's rockets.
Sivir W making every bounce crit.
0 Hogapu2 votesdoes this break them to jhin's state tho ?
Daddy Ants2 votesdoes this break them to jhin's state tho ?
Nope.
The item shouldn't be gutted because of 1 abuse case.
Nerf the abuse case.
0 Hogapu3 votesI assume Jhin is the abuse case
then jhin is the issue ? xD
Daddy Ants1 votesThis is wrong.
Jhin abuses Stormrazor, making him a problem. Therefore, Jhin is the issue. Otherwise, every champion using Stormrazor would be an issue.
Jhin also abuses Hail of Blades.
Miss Fortune abuses Dark Harvest.
Lucian abuses Press the Attack.
0 Hogapu1 voteswhile MF and Lucian are issues, Jhin is much more of a balance issue right now. Just nerf him specifically for his interaction with both this rune and item, it is much easier to do than nerfing them then counter buffing all users that were doing just fine with them. Nerf Jhin. Then nerf MF and Lucian.
TrainerRobo5 votesHonestly, i think the item was a good idea, bad execution. I dont think anyone is a fan of random crits. All they are is an archaic tabletop rpg feature that old RPG's brought with them since they were based off of game like D&D. The thought of turning a crit more into something integrated into someones kit is the direction I want crits to go. However, Stormrazor itself was poorly designed. Every point i've seen in this thread against stormrazor is true. The way it was made is extremely unhealthy to the game... But the idea and thought was right, if that makes sense. I'm a huge fan of jhin simply because he has a crit integrated in his kit, kinda like Caitlyn too. That's how things should be with critical hits, Things built in around someones kit that there is a clear counterplay towards but is still rewarding for the person to hit.
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