Jungling from behind is quite literally impossible. This needs to be fixed.

Yenn·Nov 30, 2018·35 votes·12,773 views

This is probably one of the primary reasons that nobody wants to play jungle.

Being invaded and killed from 100% health in 2-3 seconds while you're trying to farm and catch up is pretty ridiculous, especially given that vision control was reduced. It's even more ridiculous when you're behind with the same KDA as the enemy jungle, but you didn't score the killing blows, while they did.

One possibility is to add a ward to the jungle item early on, so you can actually have some control over your jungle and not have to rely on your entire team to keep all four jungle entrances fully warded at all times.

48 Comments

Baron BarianNov 30, 201815 votes

No way were you at 100% hp while farming in the jungle.

Space JhinNov 30, 20188 votes

Have you tried being behind as an adc? You legit can't walk past the inhibitor turret anymore.

ThefrostyvikingNov 30, 20187 votes

Learning which junglers can invade and cheese you and when is pretty much a requirement for any dedicated jungler, i dont really see why this shouldnt be the case as the lanes have bullies doing much the same.

YennNov 30, 20186 votes

{quoted}

Learning which junglers can invade and cheese you and when is pretty much a requirement for any dedicated jungler, i dont really see why this shouldnt be the case as the lanes have bullies doing much the same.

The problem is that even if you know which junglers can invade and cheese you, there isn't really anything you can do with that knowledge.

If they catch you in your jungle, you're dead at worst, or lose your camps at best, and you don't have any turret to farm under. Once you're behind, you stay behind unless the enemy jungler is bad.

ThefrostyvikingNov 30, 20182 votes

{quoted}

The problem is that even if you know which junglers can invade and cheese you, there isn't really anything you can do with that knowledge.

If they catch you in your jungle, you're dead at worst, or lose your camps at best, and you don't have any turret to farm under. Once you're behind, you stay behind unless the enemy jungler is bad.

Giving up camps is the same as giving up farm in lane so that isnt anything terribly bad, and to avoid dying to invades you can only adapt your route and ward, like if you know where they are starting its often predictable how they will move from there.

To surpass them you can only make your ganks count for as much as possible, or even go into whichever part of the enemy jungle that their jungle isnt at if you see them crossing towards yours while you cant contest it.

Im one of the nutcases trying to make the normal Shyvana work so i got some experience with dealing with all that x)

SwiftKitten88Nov 30, 20188 votes

{quoted}

Giving up camps is the same as giving up farm in lane so that isnt anything terribly bad, and to avoid dying to invades you can only adapt your route and ward, like if you know where they are starting its often predictable how they will move from there.

To surpass them you can only make your ganks count for as much as possible, or even go into whichever part of the enemy jungle that their jungle isnt at if you see them crossing towards yours while you cant contest it.

Im one of the nutcases trying to make the normal Shyvana work so i got some experience with dealing with all that x)

no... it's really not... the fact that u can even say that means u dont know how jungling works.

if u give up CS.. u give up gold...

if u give up a camp... you not only give up gold... u give up exp.. and u no longer have that camp to take as camps respawn slowly.

if u lose a buff.. u also lost the mana regne from blue or DOT from red

you also cant contest scuttle anymore putting you even further behind..

you cant ever 1v1 thier jungler.. and becuase they know they are free to invade any time they want.

there is literally NOTHING u can do if u are behind as a jungler

and the only reason people even THINK "junglers are OP" is becuase unless niether jungler gets any sort of lead on the other..

as soon as once jungler getas even as small as a 500 gold lead... early game.. they can pretty much stop you from every getting back into the game

jungler arn't "OP" its just that W/E jungler gets ahead gets full access to BOTH sides of the jungle

so one of them gets fed and the other is worthless

if u are pushed under tower.... u can still very easily stay in EXP range still stay relvant.. and still stay safe under tower

u also have vison granted by minions

as a jungler u have no vision except the very minimal single control ward and one normal ward..

if u try to you the sweeper plant that revals your own location telling the enemy jungler to either gank where u arn't come kill you or take your camps on the other side.

while it has to "potential" to grant u vision on somthing" it will ALWAYS grant the enemy vision on YOU

and again we lose EXP as well as gold..

ThefrostyvikingNov 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

no... it's really not... the fact that u can even say that means u dont know how jungling works.

if u give up CS.. u give up gold... if u give up a camp... you not only give up gold... u give up exp.. and u no longer have that camp to take as camps respawn slowly. if u lose a buff.. u also lost the mana regne from blue or DOT from red you also cant contest scuttle anymore putting you even further behind.. you cant ever 1v1 thier jungler.. and becuase they know they are free to invade any time they want. there is literally NOTHING u can do if u are behind as a jungler

I dont think you get it.

What is the worst case scenario for someone getting invaded?

Its they themselves dying and the enemy getting both a kill and all the nearby camps, much the same as dying early to a lanebully and they instantly showing a large wave into your tower causing you to fall behind massively both in gold and EXP because you didnt respect their early power enough.

So, the answer is simple, just like it is for dealing with lanebullies.......give up what you cant reliably secure and do everything possible to ensure you get what you absolutely need, even if it means giving up on a "optimal pathing" that you´d otherwise chose 10 out 10 times.

As long as you dont die and lose completely there is hope.

Its the same for dealing with say Zed as a mage in the midlane, no matter what you have to rush zhonya or he will rip you to pieces.....even if this screws the early game really, really hard.

Contest scuttler? Homie scuttler dominance is decided by however has the 2 advantage in the matchup, giving up scuttler is someone everyone does from time to time.

While its true that jungle matchups are punishing you havent known pain until you meet a counterpick toplane, that is pure misery incarnate.

YennDec 1, 20184 votes

{quoted}

I dont think you get it.

What is the worst case scenario for someone getting invaded?

Its they themselves dying and the enemy getting both a kill and all the nearby camps, much the same as dying early to a lanebully and they instantly showing a large wave into your tower causing you to fall behind massively both in gold and EXP because you didnt respect their early power enough.

So, the answer is simple, just like it is for dealing with lanebullies.......give up what you cant reliably secure and do everything possible to ensure you get what you absolutely need, even if it means giving up on a "optimal pathing" that you´d otherwise chose 10 out 10 times.

As long as you dont die and lose completely there is hope.

Its the same for dealing with say Zed as a mage in the midlane, no matter what you have to rush zhonya or he will rip you to pieces.....even if this screws the early game really, really hard.

Contest scuttler? Homie scuttler dominance is decided by however has the 2 advantage in the matchup, giving up scuttler is someone everyone does from time to time.

While its true that jungle matchups are punishing you havent known pain until you meet a counterpick toplane, that is pure misery incarnate.

What?

If you die to a lane bully early, you go back to lane and farm under your turret. You get a minion wave every 30 seconds, and likely still have some minions backed up from when you died, because early respawn timers are so low. You also have summoner spell options to mitigate downtime if you expect to be pushed out of lane.

If you die to a jungle invasion, your camps are all gone for the next 150 seconds (equivalent to five minion waves). At best, you have to go to the other side of the jungle, and now the enemy jungle who already successfully invaded you knows exactly where you are and can pressure you there, because it's the only place on the map with something for you to do. At worst, all of the jungle camps on your side of the map are down and you have nothing to do.

On top of that, dying to lane bullies means you fucked up. You know that they can kill you. You play safely and farm under your turret. In the jungle, even if you know the enemy jungle can kill you, you don't have a tower to defend you while you farm. Even if you see them invading you, all you can do is give up the camp. If the enemy jungler spends the entire game in your jungle and you/your team can't stop them, you can end up having to give up every single camp.

These are some idiotic Bronze level comparisons. Rank restricted forums when?

ThefrostyvikingDec 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

If you die to a lane bully early, you go back to lane and farm under your turret. You get a minion wave every 30 seconds, and likely still have some minions backed up from when you died, because early respawn timers are so low. You also have summoner spell options to mitigate downtime if you expect to be pushed out of lane.

This isnt what happens though?

You die once and they will freeze you from ever having a single CS more, a powerful LB for instance will just literally sit on your caster minions and smack your face for ever dreaming of farming a bit.

If playing a mage vs an assassin they will just faceroll engage on you looking to either blow you up or force a recall.

However me trying to explain in detail seems pointless when some convenient videos exist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QHcWr6j-Ek

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuPuqGg7Dtg

This is basically how it works, combine the ideas from these two and you should be pretty solid as long as you know how to adapt what the video´s discuss into your actual games.

Good luck.

Oh and this one while a bit outdated is pretty good too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCaDokKy86s

YennDec 1, 20182 votes

{quoted}

This isnt what happens though?

You die once and they will freeze you from ever having a single CS more, a powerful LB for instance will just literally sit on your caster minions and smack your face for ever dreaming of farming a bit.

If playing a mage vs an assassin they will just faceroll engage on you looking to either blow you up or force a recall.

However me trying to explain in detail seems pointless when some convenient videos exist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QHcWr6j-Ek

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuPuqGg7Dtg

This is basically how it works, combine the ideas from these two and you should be pretty solid as long as you know how to adapt what the video´s discuss into your actual games.

Good luck.

Oh and this one while a bit outdated is pretty good too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCaDokKy86s

I play both mages and jungle at a Diamond level, I'm not sure why you're posting any of this.

https://i.imgur.com/13FSp54.jpg

ThefrostyvikingDec 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I play both mages and jungle at a Diamond level, I'm not sure why you're posting any of this.

https://i.imgur.com/13FSp54.jpg

Had you watched those video´s i think you´d understand x)

They explain quite clearly how to deal with early aggression and how to play if you yourself have the early lead.

Put them together and you should have a know-how as to deal with almost anything that isnt your lanes feeding.

Your problem was invades and enemy junglers that are stronger than you 1v1, i presented a video made by skilled people detailing how to deal with aggressive enemy junglers as well as two others that explain the mindset most dedicated junglers will have.

If you know how it works it becomes that much more predictable at all times.

MorganFreemanBotDec 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I dont think you get it.

I don't think you get it either.

Lane bullies have to get REALLY fed to start zoning you out of xp range, especially under tower. It can happen, and some champs are better at it, but more often than not what happens is they gradually poke you down and you have to leave. You'll generally have to give up CS, but you can usually still secure most of your xp, and stay SORT OF relevant.

Jungling does NOT work this way.

When you don't get your camps, you don't get the xp. Bottom line. Junglers do not have a "cower behind the tower and soak xp" option, they HAVE to take risks in order to get ANY experience, or they have to handicap a laner by leeching.

This gets even worse when you factor in that the enemy jungler gets the gold and xp you don't. It sucks not being able to cs, but at the very least your enemy laner doesn't get to cs your creeps as well and double the gold + xp they'd otherwise get. An enemy jungler, if ahead, does get this.

ThefrostyvikingDec 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I don't think you get it either.

Lane bullies have to get REALLY fed to start zoning you out of xp range, especially under tower. It can happen, and some champs are better at it, but more often than not what happens is they gradually poke you down and you have to leave. You'll generally have to give up CS, but you can usually still secure most of your xp, and stay SORT OF relevant.

And how is securing 5-7 out of 8 camps not staying sort of relevant?

When you don't get your camps, you don't get the xp. Bottom line. Junglers do not have a "cower behind the tower and soak xp" option, they HAVE to take risks in order to get ANY experience, or they have to handicap a laner by leeching.

And this is jungling, most of those who arent specialized in fighting early trade it for something else, usually better ganks.

This gets even worse when you factor in that the enemy jungler gets the gold and xp you don't. It sucks not being able to cs, but at the very least your enemy laner doesn't get to cs your creeps as well and double the gold + xp they'd otherwise get. An enemy jungler, if ahead, does get this.

I cant quite remember what it was called by i watched a video about one of the pro junglers who didnt play the usually high power fighters and how he dealt with early aggression.

His main point was to secure his buffs and keep wards in the river, if he saw the enemy jungle cross towards his jungle he´d either go and collapse on them with his team or directly move to whichever side of the enemy jungle they werent crossing from.'¨

Heck sometimes he even gave up a buff to take the enemy one.

The idea of the jungle is that its split diagonally by the river right? That pro would simply give up part of his own jungle and take over the enemy jungle on the opposite side of the river from his own still controlled jungle to split map control diagonally by the midlane instead thus not really losing more than 1 camp most of the time and still having a good deal of map pressure.

Because a enemy jungle who rushes to invade early will usually not be able to clear their own jungle well.

Emelie CauchemarDec 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

And how is securing 5-7 out of 8 camps not staying sort of relevant?

And this is jungling, most of those who arent specialized in fighting early trade it for something else, usually better ganks.

I cant quite remember what it was called by i watched a video about one of the pro junglers who didnt play the usually high power fighters and how he dealt with early aggression.

His main point was to secure his buffs and keep wards in the river, if he saw the enemy jungle cross towards his jungle he´d either go and collapse on them with his team or directly move to whichever side of the enemy jungle they werent crossing from.'¨

Heck sometimes he even gave up a buff to take the enemy one.

The idea of the jungle is that its split diagonally by the river right? That pro would simply give up part of his own jungle and take over the enemy jungle on the opposite side of the river from his own still controlled jungle to split map control diagonally by the midlane instead thus not really losing more than 1 camp most of the time and still having a good deal of map pressure.

Because a enemy jungle who rushes to invade early will usually not be able to clear their own jungle well.

Pro junglers often like to Leave out that they Duo smurf to D2 regularly so that they have a consistent dominant lane making it easier for them to secure double lane priority.

When they play solo their winrate drops considerably when theyre not playing domimant junglers like Graves. The reason behind this is your jungle is largely impacted by what your laners are.

If you have a Kassadin vs pre much any laner. you can expect to be two man invaded and have one whole side of your jungle taken. This further gets inflated if enemy has a dominant bot lane that takes scuttle from you and drops wards on your blue side. This sets it up for you to be invaded by the support and mid laner while the enemy jungler takes the rest of your top side/ ganks top.

Even if you didn't die this entire time you pre much lost 10 waves worth of exp + around 1k gold and 4 levels.

I don't care if you're challenger you probably lost this game. And I've personally seen challenger players get stuck in low diamond due to games like this.

I'm not saying they still won't climb. But to assume you're just going to consistently and regularly win in these situations is pretty wishful thinking. It requires a lot of rng factors to go right and have the right comp. You're not blazing off to fucking glory with 80% winrate on a not meta jungler/ non aggressive dueling jungler just because you "played safe."

ThefrostyvikingDec 1, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Emelie Cauchemar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F90UuxFc,comment-id=00050000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-12-01T17:26:43.712+0000)

Pro junglers often like to Leave out that they Duo smurf to D2 regularly so that they have a consistent dominant lane making it easier for them to secure double lane priority.

The video i watched was a guide one though with examples from games on the guys own master tier games.

If it applies there i think it applies just about anywhere

If you have a Kassadin vs pre much any laner. you can expect to be two man invaded and have one whole side of your jungle taken. This further gets inflated if enemy has a dominant bot lane that takes scuttle from you and drops wards on your blue side. This sets it up for you to be invaded by the support and mid laner while the enemy jungler takes the rest of your top side/ ganks top.

If enemy bot noticeably moves to steal scuttler when i am anywhere nearby i´d go and collapse on them with my own botlane, that doesnt really seem far fetched does it?

As long as they arent fed and do not have a massive HP lead they wont win a 2v3.

Even if you didn't die this entire time you pre much lost 10 waves worth of exp + around 1k gold and 4 levels.

Like......it wont ever get this bad if you clear the camps as soon as they spawn though? And unless the enemy team has wards in your jungle they wont be able to steal much either even if ahead.

I don't care if you're challenger you probably lost this game. And I've personally seen challenger players get stuck in low diamond due to games like this.

I´ve had a master tier smurf fail to carry because our botlane fed their asses of, but that is still a shit tier example of anything as the only relevant question is what works when both sides are even or just slightly apart, if one gains a very dominant lead and plays around it thats something that works to wins LCS games too x)

I'm not saying they still won't climb. But to assume you're just going to consistently and regularly win in these situations is pretty wishful thinking. It requires a lot of rng factors to go right and have the right comp. You're not blazing off to fucking glory with 80% winrate on a not meta jungler/ non aggressive dueling jungler just because you "played safe."

The idea is to eliminate as many RNG and "bad end" cases as possible while also giving yourself backups and as many chances to success as possible.

Of course you yourself playing well doesnt really matter when your team goes and gives the enemy jungle 3 kills in 7 minutes but that should be the exception rather than the norm.

Plenty of Seju, zac and taliyah mains in Korea hit anything between 60-80% winrates on their champs when they were good by playing like this.

Zac and seju were both gutted for it and taliyah took a bad hit just recently.

However i´d acknowledge that some champ invades are truly hard to deal with, a good shaco is one the things that has me helpless, i still have no idea how to deal with one. '

Emelie CauchemarDec 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The video i watched was a guide one though with examples from games on the guys own master tier games.

If it applies there i think it applies just about anywhere

If enemy bot noticeably moves to steal scuttler when i am anywhere nearby i´d go and collapse on them with my own botlane, that doesnt really seem far fetched does it?

As long as they arent fed and do not have a massive HP lead they wont win a 2v3.

Like......it wont ever get this bad if you clear the camps as soon as they spawn though? And unless the enemy team has wards in your jungle they wont be able to steal much either even if ahead.

I´ve had a master tier smurf fail to carry because our botlane fed their asses of, but that is still a shit tier example of anything as the only relevant question is what works when both sides are even or just slightly apart, if one gains a very dominant lead and plays around it thats something that works to wins LCS games too x)

The idea is to eliminate as many RNG and "bad end" cases as possible while also giving yourself backups and as many chances to success as possible.

Of course you yourself playing well doesnt really matter when your team goes and gives the enemy jungle 3 kills in 7 minutes but that should be the exception rather than the norm.

Plenty of Seju, zac and taliyah mains in Korea hit anything between 60-80% winrates on their champs when they were good by playing like this.

Zac and seju were both gutted for it and taliyah took a bad hit just recently.

However i´d acknowledge that some champ invades are truly hard to deal with, a good shaco is one the things that has me helpless, i still have no idea how to deal with one. '

Your bot lane can't/won't help you because they are shoved in.

The master player in which you are referencing probably only showed you a hand full of videos. Did you ever bother to research his climb from p5 to d2? Or even his current match history? I bet if I were to look I'd find stuff that makes his videos not as rose colored glasses as perceived.

Seju, Zac, Taliyah were all hyper meta junglers. If you looked at what I said I very specifically said off meta. You go ahead and try maintaining an 80% winrate with Sejuani now :).

As far your " I don't see how it can get this bad if you clear your camps asap." I'm going to give you a description of a literal game.

Leblanc shoves kassadin (i meant kassadin my bad.) in. You do red and krugs and go to scuttle. Leblanc duels you in the jungle and kills you and dies at the same time. Kassadin can't shove in. Leblanc comes back and makes a beeline to your red side with enemy jungler. They kill you + steal your birds and kill your mid. Then 3 man dive your top.

Bot has your jungle warded (enemy camille took everything and it's about to reset) you go down to clear wolves, youre now met with camille leblanc and the enemy support. They kill you again and take all.your camps. They then 4 man bot. P.S kassadin can't stay alive 1v1 anymore for w.e reason.

You now have no camps,level 2, and enemy camille is level 6 and the score is 1/10 and bot turtet is now gone, dragon is gone, and they're 4 manning down mid.

What do you do?

This is a master tier game btw.

Haze97Dec 1, 20181 votes

Most junglers can invade and kill you while they're two levels and one item above you.

ThefrostyvikingDec 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Most junglers can invade and kill you while they're two levels and one item above you.

Cheese invades are those that happen under the first clear, they are the most rewarding and damaging but also the ones that cost the most if they fail.

If you somehow fall behind a full item and 2 levels later then you screwed up badly along the way, or your laners did.

But how, in which way, is a fed lee sin/shaco different to you as a jungler compared to a fed LB/zed/kassadin or fizz in the midlane?

They will interfere with your farming at any cost, they will attempt to murder you over and over and prevent you from ever passing the early game soundly.

I really fail to see the difference.

YennDec 1, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Cheese invades are those that happen under the first clear, they are the most rewarding and damaging but also the ones that cost the most if they fail.

If you somehow fall behind a full item and 2 levels later then you screwed up badly along the way, or your laners did.

But how, in which way, is a fed lee sin/shaco different to you as a jungler compared to a fed LB/zed/kassadin or fizz in the midlane?

They will interfere with your farming at any cost, they will attempt to murder you over and over and prevent you from ever passing the early game soundly.

I really fail to see the difference.

You're just derailing this thread with poor game knowledge and lack of understanding of how the game works at a high level.

The problem isn't cheese invades, the problem is post-first clear invades. Earlier invades are predictable and can be countered, because you know where the enemy jungler started. The later invades are not.

You don't need to be behind a full item, most jungle match ups are pushed over the edge by just a 600-700 gold difference or even one level difference, especially the enemy hitting level 6 while you're level 5. If you both have 2 kill participation, but you only scored assists, while the enemy scored both kills, you're too behind to fight them.

ThefrostyvikingDec 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The problem isn't cheese invades, the problem is post-first clear invades. Earlier invades are predictable and can be countered, because you know where the enemy jungler started. The later invades are not.

I´d argue that if you know your matchups then the later invades are highly predictable as well, not as much as those lvl 2-3 but still rather much.

You don't need to be behind a full item, most jungle match ups are pushed over the edge by just a 600-700 gold difference or even one level difference, especially the enemy hitting level 6 while you're level 5. If you both have 2 kill participation, but you only scored assists, while the enemy scored both kills, you're too behind to fight them.

Like, 600-700 gold is about 2 kills and a assists worth, if you fall behind by that much something has already gone terribly wrong.

....Furthermore its actually straight up impossible to fall behind that much unless they score a double kill on their first gank/s.

Like a lane couldn't really hope to recover from behind behind by that much on their own, why should the jungler be able to?

To me it seems you have a problem with the third or the fourth clear rather than the second or the first and the reason being that your laners gave the enemy jungle kills early ._.

But you dont have any real responsibility for that you know? All you can do is try to survive while telling them to play safe to avoid screwing things up even more.

Haze97Dec 1, 20181 votes

Let's see - For one I have a tower which I can safely farm under in most cases and deny CS to my opponent by freezing the wave.

Second, while I am freezing the wave and the opponent desperately tries ro score CS with no place to push me furtger back into the tower a jungler can help gank and a 2v1 is gonna give one you'll tons of exp to make the game easier on the team.

Now as a jungler, you've got no tower to run to, no consistent minion 'only your team can kill', but free for all jungle camps which belong to fucking nobody and camps which anybody can attempt to steal if they make their minds up for it

ThefrostyvikingDec 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Let's see - For one I have a tower which I can safely farm under in most cases and deny CS to my opponent by freezing the wave.

What sort of boosted opponent will let you freeze the wave when they are stronger? Freezing happens when the sides are equal or one is stronger.

Now as a jungler, you've got no tower to run to, no consistent minion 'only your team can kill', but free for all jungle camps which belong to fucking nobody and camps which anybody can attempt to steal if they make their minds up for it

But anyone invading too hard has the risk of your team collapsing on them.

The only situation where you are well and truly boned is when 2 or even all 3 enemy lanes have priority and enemy jungle is stronger 1v1 than you, even if you have been playing well up until this point they can invade and your team cant help.

Ben119Nov 30, 20187 votes

Counter point:

If you are losing the jungle battle and your OPPONENT gets the warding smite then you will be revealed more, making your ganks less effective and they get more chances to kill you.

TheSingularityDec 1, 20181 votes

Tbh the chances of that happening in solo queue is low af. Most will take a damage smite

rtbf221651412Dec 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Counter point:

If you are losing the jungle battle and your OPPONENT gets the warding smite then you will be revealed more, making your ganks less effective and they get more chances to kill you.

Most people didn't use it. In fact, when sightstone was a thing, supports got wards and nobody blamed jungle if support didn't get sightstone.

WoodakoodashoodaNov 30, 20182 votes

Except they won't because junglers were given the option of additional vision in the form of tracker's knife. But it overperformed in pro play and it isn't hard to see why. Having built it myself a number of times, I found it easy to light up an entire quarter or more of the map with wards to the point that there were hardly any dark spots in whichever corner of the map I warded.

And, outside of pro play, the item was hardly built on anything other than LeeSin who built it less for the vision and more for the easy to place friendly dash targets.

MrFawknSunshineNov 30, 20182 votes

junglers get soo much catch up experience its unreal.

and oh there is this thing its called a FUCKIN TRINKET try using them and buy a PINK WARD on 1st back

Summonah12369Nov 30, 20186 votes

{quoted}

junglers get soo much catch up experience its unreal.

and oh there is this thing its called a FUCKIN TRINKET try using them and buy a PINK WARD on 1st back

You laners just don't understand how much xp Riot robbed us from our jungle camps, do you?

MrFawknSunshineDec 1, 20181 votes

cuz it was over tuned

you could camp lanes and gank over and over and go do a few camps and be back up in experience no problem

Summonah12369Dec 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

cuz it was over tuned

you could camp lanes and gank over and over and go do a few camps and be back up in experience no problem

Yeah but they REALLY over did the nerfs.

MonstermushmushDec 1, 20182 votes

{quoted}

junglers get soo much catch up experience its unreal.

and oh there is this thing its called a FUCKIN TRINKET try using them and buy a PINK WARD on 1st back

You must be kidding...

ApollyonBainerNov 30, 20182 votes

Remember the old school jg camp attributes? Like the wolves gave that vision orb?

AckelopeNov 30, 20182 votes

that's a good point, actually... it's very important that any vision introduced to fix this problem only affects one side, otherwise it benefits aggressive junglers as well, as they get more consistent vision of you, more opportunities to kill you while behind/farming. also can't forget about good 'ol LeeSin getting more consistency with wardhops again

ApollyonBainerDec 2, 20181 votes

I find the vision plants to be pretty inconsistent with everyone hitting them for no reason and wasting them. I take the trinket cdr rune on lee some games because of a lack of wards. Im just sick of having the highest vision score on my team with half the map dark always.

SgtAwesomenessNov 30, 20182 votes

believe it or not they used to have a jg item that gave you wards

crazy right?

The thigh guyDec 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

believe it or not they used to have a jg item that gave you wards

crazy right?

2 of them. Wriggles lantern gave wards as well.

SgtAwesomenessDec 2, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F90UuxFc,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2018-12-01T02:52:34.068+0000)

2 of them. Wriggles lantern gave wards as well.

jesus you mean BACK in the day

The thigh guyDec 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

jesus you mean BACK in the day

I only got to experience it in bots lol. I was just a noob when it got removed.

Spank the FoxNov 30, 20182 votes

Jungling is one of the most broken roles in the game right now, with the Top 20 being dominated easily by jungle mains.

You got to your elo playing mid/top Kennen. Stay in your lane, buddy, if you have no clue how to jungle properly at your level

Summonah12369Nov 30, 20182 votes

I do gromp, blue buff scutller AND wolves yet I'm still lvl 3 while my laners are reaching lvl 6. GG Rito.

Haze97Dec 1, 20182 votes

This is the main reason for why I started to play Jax top lane instead of playing him in the jungle. Much easier to sit under your tower and farm up on not-nerfed creep score when behind.

As a jungler, falling a level and an item behind your opponent means getting sandwiched between angry Krugs and the opponent jungler, and with the exp nerfs good luck turning the game around on solo queue.

Shyvana BL0WJ0BSDec 1, 20182 votes

You shouldn't be jungling from behind if you are playing well, so the point is mute. If you are not playing well then you should practice more often.

YennDec 1, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crown of Flame,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F90UuxFc,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2018-12-01T04:32:29.480+0000)

You shouldn't be jungling from behind if you are playing well, so the point is mute. If you are not playing well then you should practice more often.

Most jungle match ups are binary, there is no skill expression above baseline if it comes to a jungler vs. jungler duel. One either flat out beats the other no matter what, or the first one to get vision of the other wins.

Also, as I've said in other posts (which you clearly didn't read), if you're 0-0-2 and the enemy jungler is 2-1-0, you're jungling from behind, just because you didn't get the killing blows. Another scenario is one of your lanes kills their opponent 1v1, and the jungler goes there to soak a huge wave of minions at the turret. Once again, you're behind.

OneMustFallNov 30, 20181 votes

Yeah junglers never come back after being down early in the game. Ever.

/joke

mack9112Dec 1, 20181 votes

Jungling is an incredible game of macro with the most important information is were you are compared to there jungler.

SchenixDec 1, 20181 votes

I just want jungle camps to have more hp, do more damage to champions that don't have smite and take more damage from champions that have smite. Half the time, the damage in this game has champion abilities that do more than smite and if you're behind, you just have to concede it. Alternatively, your team easily can take things from the jungler that they might need with mostly half the effort of a jungler that doesn't use Tiamat; or even if you kill the enemy jungler -- their adc or bruiser can basically solo the dragon or herald at 10. If a jungler is about pressurized objective control, then actually give them the tools to control it and make it their function while reducing the other functions.

Almost every season, jungle is changed because there is no goal in mind, there are only fix flux issues as goals. What do we want junglers to be? Who knows.

Junglers gank too early, that's dangerous; too much pressure, so we'll fix that.
Junglers can power farm and come out to carry, that's not right -- fix that.
Junglers can 2v1 a turret after coming in, how dare they go for lane objectives, fix that.
Junglers can be funneled or vice versa, didn't balance that, ~~fix~~ killed that.
Junglers can camp a lane for almost free, ~~fix that~~ nerf warding so we can keep doing it. [not really, but also kind of]
Jungle is too hard to get into, make plants and remove smite decisions. ~~fixed.~~ As if it isn't a complicated role for new players no matter what. Meanwhile make Scuttle important without telling them that it is; and Lethality, that new players won't even recognize what it fully means for awhile. [scaling to lv 18 armor pen.]

They do all these random functions at different intensities at different times, but they're not ever targeted to be something specific. As you get into higher and higher elo, it is a lot about objective control of course -- but now your individual agency as a jungler has been reduced to have more reliance on laning pressure because how dare junglers control objectives while not relying on their team in a team game, that removes them from the pressure of solo queue and creating pressure, something everyone should be doing anyway and is a part of high elo for every champion. But specifically jungle has to need it for not laning in a more polarized manner because there's no ground to work with. Jungle as a role is a mess, whether overpowered or frustrating -- it's just all over the place.

Support 4 LyfeDec 1, 20181 votes

Nah, fuck jungle and fuck junglers, this role is already op as it is, you don't need anymore fucking buffs.

YennDec 4, 20181 votes

I just had a Master Yi counter-picked by Rengar. Rengar bought a sweeper and ran around Yi's jungle all game.

As Vel'koz, I can't do much to help him. If I walk into brush he's waiting in, I'm guaranteed dead. I also also can't defend my wards, so when he sweeps them, that entire side of the jungle becomes inaccessible, leaving our Yi with no camps. There's nothing Yi himself can do to deal with Rengar running around his jungle.

In the end, Rengar was 12-1 while our Yi was 1-8. This is pretty ridiculous.