Legitimate question. I remember playing against her way back before her rework, but only things I can recall of her then were her ultimate and that she dealt damage over time. What's so different about her now that she doesn't live up to the "poison mage" fantasy? Try to keep the salt to a minimum.
Lord Dusteon17 votesHer Q and W had their scalings nerfed (Q MASSIVELY, W a large amount but not as bad), W lost a huge chunk of base, R lost a large amount of base and some scaling. Her passive was changed into a unfun, uninteractive feeling mess that is useless until X stacks, then massively powerful at X stacks. All of her power got shoved into spamming E on someone instead of actually poisoning them.
So, the main problem is her poisons A) don't do enough to justify maxing or using them outside of E, and B) her poisons feel horrible to use. Her Q is only to refresh E's and for ms, W is only for slows and E's, R is only to stun/slow so you can Q/W and spam E. She doesn't feel or play anything like a DoT/poison mage.
xJLx MCHammer5 votes[{quoted}](name=Lord Dusteon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F6MvNJ46,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-10-04T01:52:45.356+0000)
Her Q and W had their scalings nerfed (Q MASSIVELY, W a large amount but not as bad), W lost a huge chunk of base, R lost a large amount of base and some scaling. Her passive was changed into a unfun, uninteractive feeling mess that is useless until X stacks, then massively powerful at X stacks. All of her power got shoved into spamming E on someone instead of actually poisoning them.
So, the main problem is her poisons A) don't do enough to justify maxing or using them outside of E, and B) her poisons feel horrible to use. Her Q is only to refresh E's and for ms, W is only for slows and E's, R is only to stun/slow so you can Q/W and spam E. She doesn't feel or play anything like a DoT/poison mage.
I keep hearing this "poison Mage" crap. Listen up Originally, Cassiopeia was intended to be a champion who has a playstyle like a adc. Her q and w would poison so that she can use E constantly like an AA. Her Q and w would also help her kite and position. Her r was there to help her stand in mid lane vs champs who can dive her. After all she plays like an adc but has no support.
This is why, if you look at her guides back in s2, everyone said to max E. Mathematically, it did more damage, more consistent, and more effective. Then champs like zed, Yas, vi.etc started getting played and released. She went from being a bully in lane to being bullied. So people changed the guides l, they recomended maxing q because it was safer even if her dmg was a lot lower. So that's when this whole, poison Mage started to arise
Her original design was not to poison and watch them die. She was meant to hit you with e spams and repositioning with q and w, while stopping enemies from diving with her R. This rework did hat again.
BetaDude4012 votesWell Blitzcrank wasn't originally designed to be a support (he was supposed to be a top laner) but look at how he's being played now.
BenParadox1 votesThat's not the same. Cass lost her identity, and the rework gave it back. Blitz still pulls people into his team to kill them. People just moved him into a lane where he can do that earlier in the game.
Edit: In addition, her kit works well together, and as far as her passive goes, the more you poison enemy champs, the faster it stacks. Her Q and W help keep her safe, and her ult helps save her in an emergency and sets up her poison.
BetaDude401 votesThis isn't about how good she is (which, honestly, she is, but really only through numbers and balls of stats), this is about how she's completely alienated from her playerbase. Yeah, with the Old Cass, many people still preferred E spam over DoT poison mage. But back then, you actually had a choice. Now, it's "mash E and you'll be okay". They completely butchered one of her preferred playstyles (and honestly the more unique of the two, in my opinion) for no reason.
I don't want to hear about her passive. It is literally a time gate, nothing more. Unlike other champions, whose power spikes can vary slightly depending on situation, Cass's will never change because it's bloody time based and completely out of your control. Even if you poison a bunch of people, you're still going to wait a while until you can get "hypercarry" status.
Cass did lose her identity, and she only got like a quarter of it back in the form of her E.
BenParadox1 votesBut how does hitting Q give her a unique play style? It is ultimately just another DoT spell with a speed boost for Cass if it hits. She still is a poison mage, she just needs to E her targets to increase the damage of the poison.
BTW, I looked at her old passive (Deadly Cadence), and it does not really fit with a poison mage. Her newer passive does however.
BetaDude401 votesYes, her Q is pretty unique. We have no poison mages in the game that are based entirely off of DoT spells. The closest we have to that ideology is Singed (he has no range, so he's much more of a tank or bruiser than a mage) and Teemo (who has no poison spells other than his shroom and his basic attacks, which make him more of a marksman)
What does her E provide? Right now, it feels like it makes her an AP marksman, but with a bunch of bullshit stats to make it seem okay. Like, really, is there a reasoning she gets practical spell vamp with it after a certain amount of time?
And yeah, her old passive doesn't fit the theme either, but the only thing fitting for "poison mage" with the new passive is the fact you get stacks from poisoning people.
If you like her as an AP marksman, fine. But a lot of us would love to have the choice between AP marksman and poison mage.
Miraweave1 votesYes, her Q is pretty unique. We have no poison mages in the game that are based entirely off of DoT spells. The closest we have to that ideology is Singed (he has no range, so he's much more of a tank or bruiser than a mage) and Teemo (who has no poison spells other than his shroom and his basic attacks, which make him more of a marksman)
What does her E provide? Right now, it feels like it makes her an AP marksman, but with a bunch of bullshit stats to make it seem okay. Like, really, is there a reasoning she gets practical spell vamp with it after a certain amount of time?
And yeah, her old passive doesn't fit the theme either, but the only thing fitting for "poison mage" with the new passive is the fact you get stacks from poisoning people.
If you like her as an AP marksman, fine. But a lot of us would love to have the choice between AP marksman and poison mage.
Can you describe to me, in detail, what you actually mean when you say "poison mage"? Old Cass was always about landing Q and then going aggressive with E, the only difference was that you could max Q for a much stronger earlygame.
BetaDude401 votesWhat I consider a poison mage is a mage whose damage is almost exclusively over time rather than through burst or sustained damage. Not saying there are no other champions that fill this design philosophy, but Cass came very close to that. It's unique, and that's what I liked about it.
AP Marksman is still something pretty damn uncommon, but it doesn't feel fun or unique, it just feels like I'll have some really bad arthritis when I'm older.
Was she balanced? Not entirely. Did she need a rework? Maybe. Did Stashu seriously mess up her identity and what we've come to know as Cass? To me and several others, yes. i don't blame anyone for liking new Cass over old Cass, she's much stronger (even if it's only because random innate deathcap passive and spell vamp OP), but I still can't find her healthier. I just can't.
Miraweave1 votesThis isn't about how good she is (which, honestly, she is, but really only through numbers and balls of stats), this is about how she's completely alienated from her playerbase. Yeah, with the Old Cass, many people still preferred E spam over DoT poison mage. But back then, you actually had a choice. Now, it's "mash E and you'll be okay". They completely butchered one of her preferred playstyles (and honestly the more unique of the two, in my opinion) for no reason.
I don't want to hear about her passive. It is literally a time gate, nothing more. Unlike other champions, whose power spikes can vary slightly depending on situation, Cass's will never change because it's bloody time based and completely out of your control. Even if you poison a bunch of people, you're still going to wait a while until you can get "hypercarry" status.
Cass did lose her identity, and she only got like a quarter of it back in the form of her E.
That's not true. There was no viable option for the lategame aside from a DPS route, any other playstyle you chose was deliberately suboptimal.
She had the ability to max Q first in lane and bully the lane super hard, and that had to be removed because it prevented her from being a balancable champion. It's that simple.
BetaDude401 votesBetter to be sub-optimal than non-existent. It's possible to have a champion with more than one build path and play style.
If that were the problem, then why is her E allowed to be as overloaded as it is? She's more feast or famine because of that now than she was before (long range champs completely shit on her; she functions like an AP squishy Urgot to short-range champs). Why didn't they just nerf the Q damage and call it a day if that were the problem?
If it were that simple, then Stashu should seriously have been fired the moment the rework came up.
Miraweave1 votesBetter to be sub-optimal than non-existent. It's possible to have a champion with more than one build path and play style.
If that were the problem, then why is her E allowed to be as overloaded as it is? She's more feast or famine because of that now than she was before (long range champs completely shit on her; she functions like an AP squishy Urgot to short-range champs). Why didn't they just nerf the Q damage and call it a day if that were the problem?
If it were that simple, then Stashu should seriously have been fired the moment the rework came up.
Because she wasn't overpowered. She clearly needed to be buffed a bit, but they couldn't buff her without breaking her because of her lane bully playsyle. She still has dots, she still has the same basic playstyle, but now she actually has an earlygame that's weak enough to justify the monstrously powerful lategame that she has now and had pre-rework.
If they just nerfed her Q damage you'd be complaining about the exact same damn thing since there would be even less power in her dots than there is now. For reference, her Q has the same base damage as it did pre rework, and actually does more damage lategame because of the amp on her E and her passive.
BeatRushVII9 votesPersonally i miss the fuck out of being to do actual damage with her Q, right now its ONLY there to rest E, in the past you could easily chunk people with bad positioning with well placed Qs. Her passive also forces her into being weak early because of how strong she gets if you manage to get her stacks maxed out.
The Queen Viper1 votesWell to be honest, maxing Q and spamming it from the distance was too easy and quite broken... like playing the old AP Nida and spamming spears.
Maple Crusader6 votesShe got gutted aside from her E, and got forced into the role as a "late game mage". Her new passive is a god damn stacking system (the first iteration of it sucked hard), which means it will take forever to attain her full power. She now plays like an AP Urgot, which is BORING. The worst thing about the rework is the lack of communication. Riot didn't learn from the reverted intended Lee Sin rework.
Lapis x36 votesPersonally for me, I hate the fact that they removed such a fitting passive for her and replaced it with something that gates her power massively.
Riot ruined her early game lane bullying (which was oppressive, I agree) in favor of nerfing all of her ratios. They then gave her a passive that requires you to gain stacks for 30+ minutes, to finally do damage equal to the damage you used to be able to do as Cassiopeia pre-rework.
So basically, her passive's insane AP boost is not that insane. Her poison damage is basically the same as before the rework, only higher if you are ~900+ AP.
And now, once Cassiopeia gets 500 stacks, her E's damage is incredibly stupid. She should not be able to 2-shot anything with her Twin Fangs.
Nagma1 votesAnd now, once Cassiopeia gets 500 stacks, her E's damage is incredibly stupid. She should not be able to 2-shot anything with her Twin Fangs.
are you saying that cassio is over powered ? xD
xJLx MCHammer5 votesAs a Cassiopeia player The rework did everything for her. But she still feels very starve or feast champion. If you get behind, 2-4 E barely hurts. Yet if she gets ahead, they can take down tanks like nothing.
She also has a problem having a play style that is like an adc. Her e functions like a AA from a champion. It means she must play a similar role to an adc, having very similar weaknesses. It means that she is very much team reliant
I kind of stopped playing her because other mid champs are just more rewarding in solo q and aren't in that starve or feast situation
Statistically, she is played more than Before rework.
HaIlMonitor2 votesYeah I agree she doesn't really seem to have stupid cheesy tricks like Shaco who is also feast or famine.
yellowbricks4 votes"Hi I'm a snake, I'm gonna gain power by poisoning you!"
Pure idiocy. Plus I hate stack mechanics so just having that slapped on was enough for me to hate it forever.
Rico Nasty3 votesHer kit is basically just her E. Q is just there for her E. W is just a waveclear tool, also there for E. Ult is super easy to dodge. Her Passive is fucking stupid. It's just a bundle of stats.
They need to remove her E tbh. I miss her being the cool poison DoT mage.
The Queen Viper3 votes[{quoted}](name=karma or feed,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F6MvNJ46,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-10-04T13:28:12.404+0000)
I miss her being the cool poison DoT mage.
Not sure what you mean by that since they never thematically changed her DoTs ... they are just weaker dmg-wise now.
Rico Nasty1 votesWeaker dmg = less use. Like I said, the dmg is so low on her poisons that she's basically an E machine gun now.
CasterGilgamesh3 votesthey ruined her you could actually poison someone and they die but now it's all forced into her E she was fine the way she was.
The Queen Viper1 votesMeh ... even though they killed the "Q poke" play-style, Cass is still just fine.
Dar Raksada3 votesLegitimate question. I remember playing against her way back before her rework, but only things I can recall of her then were her ultimate and that she dealt damage over time. What's so different about her now that she doesn't live up to the "poison mage" fantasy? Try to keep the salt to a minimum.
Most of her damage is loaded into e instead of the damage over time you remembered from playing against her pre-rework. Her poisons aren't the central focus of her kit, her E is.
Edit: Her passive is also unfit thematically for a poison mage, it seems like something a squishier, more aggressive singed would have (A brewmaster)
The Queen Viper2 votesWhat's so different about her now that she doesn't live up to the "poison mage" fantasy?
Not much... you can't max Q anymore and she's more team-reliant due to her stacking passive and weaker early game.
Lugg2 votesNothing is really wrong with her, people just need to learn how to play her correctly.
Everyone wants mages that burst people down but she is a high damage over time mage.
Sire Hippington2 votesno one ever complained about her not haveing burst, nor about her powerlevel, but soly about thematics, playstyle and feel...
Lugg1 votesI think her thematics are fine. The playstyle and feel probably fall in the same category as Quinn. Not horrible, but could definitely be better.
pE4CbxDPQO1 votesShe's op af. Everyone has just forgotten about her.
Gubaguy1 votesYou mean aside from everything?
Everything
Ironclad Dragon1 votesVery informative to a person who doesn't know what she was like before. Thanks.
Gubaguy2 votesi played her long before her rework, you want to know what changed, read a patch note.
The Queen Viper1 votesNo, not really.
Miraweave1 votesBasically nothing. People remember her as having a "stand back and spam Q" playstyle that didn't really exist except in the earlygame, and that earlygame playstyle was what allowed her to bully lanes incredibly hard and incredibly safely.
People want that back, but it wasn't balanced and there was no way she could be allowed to be a viable champion without it.
Droogzy1 votesMy biggest issue with the rework is how Riot said they dislike gated champions...
Yet Cass is the textbook definition of a gated champion with that passive.
And I think she has waaaaay too much power invested into her E and don't understand why some of that could be transferred over to her Q or W, she's suppose to be about poisoning, but the only thing Q and W serve to do is act as the gate way to E spam.