Khazix on PBE

Snowman Arc·May 4, 2018·39 votes·14,084 views

LUL. Like, what is Riot thinking? The current changes are that now his stealth from bushes only lingers for 1 second instead of 1.5, which is quite good. I assume that now, he won't be running through the entire jungle with permanent invisibility. To make up for it, the evolved R now reduces his R BASE cooldown by 40%.

Who thought of this? This champion is probably the scariest thing in the game for quite a long time now. He is one of the champions that people abuse on smurfs to get to master - challenger and it has a high pick rate and win rate. And instead of a hard solid nerf to bring him in line, you do this?? Like, I guess he will just activate his R now if he wants permanent invisibility, since the cooldown will be so low now anyways.

39 Comments

Pokemonred200May 4, 201814 votes

Ricklessabandon actually said they're removing the bush stealth altogether on PBE today, in exchange for longer ult duration when active:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DcX5Yr2V4AAuh5B.jpg

I think it'll be a nice change to make, honestly.

RexxieeMay 4, 201815 votes

{quoted}

Ricklessabandon actually said they're removing the bush stealth altogether on PBE today, in exchange for longer ult duration when active:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DcX5Yr2V4AAuh5B.jpg

I think it'll be a nice change to make, honestly.

So they're making him even more obnoxious in combat, greaT!

ValiantKillerMay 4, 201810 votes

{quoted}

So they're making him even more obnoxious in combat, greaT!

So basically they making him go into hide everywhere in map not jg only, yay!

Teridax68May 4, 20183 votes

I don't really get it, though: evolutions are the perfect opportunity to give a champion bonus gameplay that is fully tailored to their kit, and that therefore has the room to do some pretty unique stuff. Why then turn one of these evolutions into just a pure numerical buff to an ability's existing effects? Is this really the most fun and interesting augment one could conceive? I understand that the current evolution has some issues, and may even be irredeemably unhealthy, but is there no other alternative to this boring iteration?

Pokemonred200May 4, 20184 votes

pre-rework his R evolve gave him a third charge in addition to the increased duration, and back in season 4, he took half damage while stealthed; the former gave him more tools to skirt around the fight, and the latter rewarded a well-timed activation by allowing him to negate some burst on whoever he was jumping on. I think one of those versions would be a good thing for him to have without killing his other evolves. It's hard to say though.

MuffledGarbageMay 5, 20182 votes

IT'D BE SICK AF if Kha ult made a couple temporary clones that just moved around semi-randomly towards wherever he goes for his Ulti Evolve

My Waifu VanillaMay 6, 20181 votes

I mean Q is also a STRAIGHT number buff and is never taken currently because if you NEED the CDR on an isolated target you are doing something wrong.

Teridax68May 6, 20181 votes

Okay, but the cooldown refund on isolated targets is a new mechanic entirely. It gives a specific reward for doing a certain thing, as opposed to making the entire ability flat-out stronger in all respects. By contrast, these R changes do just that, and make the ability statistically more powerful without really playing on any kind of new gameplay via conditionals or bonus mechanics.

My Waifu VanillaMay 6, 20181 votes

K6 is already rewarded for hitting isolated targets. Its called doing double damage with the Q. It further pushing something he should already be doing except it ONLY does something against tanks which k6 should never be fighting which is why it is rarely ever evolved. Evolved Q adds less than the others. W gives much stronger poke and pick potential (it's an 80% slow), E gives resets, and R STILL greatly improves your ganking and teamfight potential.

Q adds in a roundabout way....more damage. That's it. He takes dragons/Baron slightly faster and can kind of deal with tanks but not really. Evolved Q does nothing to his actual burst since he should never need 3 Qs to kill a priority target. You are still going to go E+Q+auto+R+Q+auto meaning the cooldown reduction doesn't do anything until that 3rd Q since duskblade and mobility trumps standing on top of the target waiting to Q.

Also, every "fancy" evolution they have ever done to K6 ult has been a balancing nightmare. He had 3 charges. No one took it. They gave him 50% DR. EVERYONE evolved it first and he could jump in the middle of the enemy team and dive the adc unopposed since he just didn't take damage especially with his red smite. They gave him the stealth on brush and we are all complaining we can't see him in the jungle. Now we're back so a slightly better version of his release evolved R. His ganks will be roughly the same as they are on live since he will still make it to the middle of your lane from the Bush in stealth, But you can actually see him coming since he won't be able to reach from his wolf camp to the middle of mid lane without being spotted on a ward.

Teridax68May 6, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Vanilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Eyv7mEG0,comment-id=00010001000200000000,timestamp=2018-05-06T07:27:45.789+0000)

K6 is already rewarded for hitting isolated targets. Its called doing double damage with the Q.

Sure, but it's not called reducing Q's cooldown, which is why it is a new mechanic.

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Vanilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Eyv7mEG0,comment-id=00010001000200000000,timestamp=2018-05-06T07:27:45.789+0000)

Q adds in a roundabout way....more damage. That's it.

By this logic, literally any kind of mechanic that increases any ability's range, decreases its cooldown, increases its AoE when applicable, and so on, qualifies as "more damage" in a roundabout way. Sure, the intent is to increase Kha'Zix's single-target damage, because that's what Kha'Zix is designed to do, but the CDR is not a part of his base kit, and does meaningfully alter his gameplay by having him rotate Qs faster in specific circumstances when he plays well. It is therefore not the same as simply buffing the entire ability's damage or reducing its whole cooldown.

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Vanilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Eyv7mEG0,comment-id=00010001000200000000,timestamp=2018-05-06T07:27:45.789+0000)

Also, every "fancy" evolution they have ever done to K6 ult has been a balancing nightmare.

Sure, but also because they were all designed with critical flaws. An extra charge on an ult with a decently high cooldown wasn't worth it when you could get more burst, waveclear, and gapcloser resets on his other evolutions. Damage reduction was simply not appropriate because it pushed Kha'Zix to build like a bruiser, and the current passive stealth essentially turns K6 into Evelynn while still keeping his upfront burst. This does not mean that it is impossible to add a meaningful improvement to his ult that can add gameplay without breaking him. If we were to just give up on a champion after trying a few times to improve them, we may as well remove Ryze or Skarner from the game, so I think that whenever updating a mechanic causes issues each time, that calls for a deeper analysis of the mechanic's risks and flaws, rather than some boring alternative.

green smiteMay 4, 20183 votes

so basically rengar

Slice n Dice emMay 5, 20181 votes

but with out any indication or sign that he is has ultied or coming for you.

ΤohruMay 5, 20182 votes

So we're back in the glory days.

kargishMay 5, 20189 votes

So this means that the new strat with Kha'zix will be to get item 3147 + Stormrazor, proc them both, activate ult and wait for both to get up and repeat 2 times.

My Waifu VanillaMay 6, 20181 votes

Can already do that on live.

kargishMay 6, 20181 votes

You need 2.5 secounds of not attacking for stormrazor to activate

My Waifu VanillaMay 6, 20181 votes

Not auto attacking. Q animation takes time and can be done first. Same with W. If need be you can just walk out of a bush on live+auto+R for 1.5+Q+W+auto. Its not optimal in the slightest but there is no reason to be worried about stormrazor. Riot said explicitly in the post revealing the item if assassins start using it with duskblade they will be unique to each other thus removing the possibility.

OatheSwornMay 5, 20188 votes

{quoted}

Ricklessabandon actually said they're removing the bush stealth altogether on PBE today, in exchange for longer ult duration when active:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DcX5Yr2V4AAuh5B.jpg

I think it'll be a nice change to make, honestly.

THREE SECONDS. THREE. SECONDS. HA. THIS GUY WILL PRESS R, KILL SOMEONE, PRESS R AGAIN AND BE ACROSS THE MAP BY THE TIME HE COMES OUT OF INVISIBILITY. LOL.

D357R0Y3RMay 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

BE ACROSS THE MAP BY THE TIME HE COMES OUT OF INVISIBILITY. LOL.

OatheSwornMay 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

?

The guy gains move speed in his ultimate not to mention his upgraded E gets reset on kill/assist not to mention he can Q mid-jump not to mention if he kills someone mid-air he can jump again for a bunny hop not to mention he can E over 2 walls in certain areas not to mention not to mention not to mention...

D357R0Y3RMay 5, 20181 votes

so that's the entire map, and he is still invisible while leaping???

lol ok

OatheSwornMay 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

so that's the entire map, and he is still invisible while leaping???

lol ok

I'm pretty sure if the invisibility is 3 seconds long, he can R (invisible) and E onto the ADC (still invisible), kill them instantly (finally not invisible), R (now invisible again), and jump away (invisible during jump too). 3 seconds on that ability for an assassin that is literally known for 100-to-0 damage is no joke. If he can R 3 times...Riot then has officially broken the game. That would be a total of 9 seconds invisible on an assassin who's passive gives him extra damage and a slow on his next attack after being unseen. He could proc duskblade 3 times, proc his passive 3 times or more depending on whether he goes into bush or not and this would clearly kill ANYONE that is not building defensively.

Naomi CoffeeGoatMay 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I'm pretty sure if the invisibility is 3 seconds long, he can R (invisible) and E onto the ADC (still invisible), kill them instantly (finally not invisible), R (now invisible again), and jump away (invisible during jump too). 3 seconds on that ability for an assassin that is literally known for 100-to-0 damage is no joke. If he can R 3 times...Riot then has officially broken the game. That would be a total of 9 seconds invisible on an assassin who's passive gives him extra damage and a slow on his next attack after being unseen. He could proc duskblade 3 times, proc his passive 3 times or more depending on whether he goes into bush or not and this would clearly kill ANYONE that is not building defensively.

It's 2 charges with 3 seconds each. In exchange for roaming the jungle completely invisible or lane ganking from river brush with enough movespeed. You guys on boards just slam your face on the keyboard and overreact to everything and don't even interpret the PBE notes properly.

OatheSwornMay 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

It's 2 charges with 3 seconds each. In exchange for roaming the jungle completely invisible or lane ganking from river brush with enough movespeed. You guys on boards just slam your face on the keyboard and overreact to everything and don't even interpret the PBE notes properly.

That is why I said "if"

My HeartshakerMay 4, 201814 votes

What? People have asking to remove the brush stealth mechanic for ages and now they finally do it and you guys have more to complain about?

Unreal.

Demented GagMay 5, 20182 votes

I know, right? "I guess he will just activate his R now if he wants permanent invisibility" - Permanent invisibility LUL

remakoroMay 4, 20186 votes

They want to nerf him but cant catch. Cuz he keeps going invisible and hops away.

Craft ZeppelinMay 4, 20182 votes

Just please....just completely remove the toxic elements and buff/return the interesting parts of his kit. Say, remember the times when Kha was able to shoot spikes while jumping, or can detonate his passive with his spikes?

That IS the evolve that is fun and makes Kha flexible in terms of "picking a playstyle".

SteelflameMay 5, 20184 votes

That evolve just made Kha into a muramana tear-poke bot. Once W is evolved, it is extremely hard to miss/dodge, so it pretty much just makes him have an AoE Ezreal Q.

The playstyle was extremely un-assassinish, because it was just so utterly safe and boring. He didn't assassinate you. He poked you 3-4 times (generally while also healing himself off of nearby minions by aiming the W diagonally) and then jumped on you once you were low enough.

My Waifu VanillaMay 6, 20181 votes

You're right I miss laning against mid k6 who maxed Q and did more damage with his W (that was all magic damage btw) while safely farming and poking me from his tower or the river bushes constantly refreshing his passive. Was really fun.

greekvandaLMay 4, 20182 votes

Funny considering adcs have been broken for 2 years but Kha is strong for a few months and everyone loses their minds.

AyzevMay 4, 201810 votes

Have you been living under a rock? There's countless threads complaining about the power of ADCs.

Snowman ArcMay 4, 201810 votes

Well, at least you can shut down an ADC early on to the point they won't be strong until later. Khazix is always extremely oppressive from level 1.

CasterGilgameshMay 5, 20181 votes

im not going to say adcs need to be gutted [sg-lulu] ...but adcs need to be gutted [sg-shisa]

ForFoxSakesMay 4, 20181 votes

Id be ok w the removal of the invis passive as long as he keeps the out of combat move speed through a bush

I guess I better farm up my last M7 token before the nerfs hit :/

Az Lusheni AzMay 5, 20181 votes

Let us nerf Heimerdinger to the ground because he was competing with bruisers top lane, while his mid lane is still Crap. These are the kind of people in charge of game balancing. Nothing they do should not surprise you at this point, they clearly don't learn from mistakes. Move on!

MarothennanMay 5, 20181 votes

don't forget they also added a new assassin item

CðulrophobiaMay 5, 20181 votes

i think thats a healthy trade off.

d4rkshockMay 6, 20181 votes

Oh no. They did it again. A buff meant to be a Nerf. He doesn't need that compensation. He's permabanned in competitive play. Luckily I'm bronze and people don't know how to play and not a problem. It's a problem when I get a good Kha'zix zix on the enemy team. I might just pick him up again like the beginning of S7. I was a god. I then lot it.