Why is Thunderlord's Decree so popular?

DeloricVI··1 votes·1,379 views

I mean, really. Today, someone recommended I play it rather than Deathfire Touch on Veigar. They said "Trust me, it will increase your burst," but I used math to show that DeathFire Touch is demonstrably better; it deals more damage in the optimal combo and in most situations. Tlord does stack once if you land your Event Horizon, yes, but if you miss it, it is unlikely that you will even proc this mastery once, let alone have it provide more damage for you. Now, here's my reasoning. For this example, we'll assume that this particular Veigar has exactly 1000 ap at level 18, so that our calculations are consistent. We will also assume that this champion has 0 bonus attack damage. So, first, let's see how much damage Thunderlord's Decree will do:

(10 x level) + ( .3 x attack damage) + (.1 x ability power) (10 x 18) + (.3 x 0) + (.1 x 1000) (180) + (0) + (100) 280

Hm. Quite formidable, for something that you just proc and don't have to buy an item for. However, consider how much damage DFT:

8 + ( .65 x attack damage ) + ( .25 x ability power ) over 4 seconds 8 + ( .65 x 0 ) + ( .25 x 1000 ) / 4 seconds 8 + (0) + (250) / 4 seconds 258 / 4 seconds 129 / 2 seconds (calculated because Dark Matter counts as an AoE, which makes the proc last only 2 seconds, instead of 4)

Now, you may be thinking, "Del, clearly, DFT does less damage. What gives?" And you'd be correct. However, what you overlook is how often you will be dealing damage from DFT, rather than Tlord's Decree. In fact, let's chart out some optimal scenarios, shall we?

Now, if we take the classic optimized combo, we will assume that it goes as follows, accounting the damage done by both passives:

                                             ThunderLord's Decree damage total               DeathFire Touch's damage total

Land Event Horizon 0 0 Primordial Burst hits 0 258 Dark Matter hits 280 387 Land Baleful Strike 280 645

Now, you may be thinking, "Del, that's not fair! This is only optimized for DFT's Damage output, not Tlord's! If you autoattack, then Tlord will proc more often!" That would be a fair point, but now I have to point out that you would either kill your target or die if you tried to optimize for Tlord with Veigar. To out-damage DFT with Tlord, you need to do the following sequence:

                                             ThunderLord's Decree damage total               DeathFire Touch's damage total

Land Event Horizon 0 0 Auto-Attack 0 0 Primordial Burst hits 280 258 Auto-Attack 280 258 Dark Matter hits 280 387 Auto-Attack 560 387 Land Baleful Strike 560 645 Auto-Attack 560 645 Auto-Attack 840 645

Alternatively, you could Auto-Attack before Event Horizon, but the point still stands. You need to auto way too many times for this combo to be feasible. You may say, "Del, that's also not fair, because Tlord's will do more damage at lower levels, or when you have less AP. It's for winning lane, not scaling into the late game. You can also hit more than one champion with it if they're standing next to each other. Also, it's not too hard to proc if you git gud you Bronze scrublord."

Well, you would be correct. However, Veigar is meant to scale so hard after he's full build, he'll smack you over then head with raw AP, and maybe some spell pen. Now, this doesn't always apply, but it applies to a lot of burst mages. Most of them don't have the attack speed to pull combos like this off. Riven can use Tlord well, some other champions can do it well, but why do I see entire teams with Tlord's, and why is everyone so in love with this mastery? In fact, everyone says that you should be playing this on all burst mages, but that's not always the case. Sure, if you have something that can proc it three times easy in lane while you harass, fine, go for Tlord... but why is everyone so enamored with this master? Is it just flavor of the month, or does everyone genuinely think it's better in all situations? I have to pose the question, should we all forsake scaling runes? Because it's the same concept. It scales your damage BETTER as the game goes on, giving you late game presence. Is that no longer viable? I mean, I had people telling me that I seriously need to alter my build, because I don't have ThunderLord's Decree.

It's just so weird to see a mastery like this make people go crazy and say it's objectively the best in every way. Does anyone agree? Or am I just going on about nothing?

14 Comments

Borkahn1 votes

Both. This is a keystone that has ended so many games early. The damage output from that one burst sends most champions back to their turret and even backing out of fear. Even though they could continue the fight. The extra damage it provides is insane and helps in one v one situations which let's face it, though we revolve around team fighting, picks come often each game. Gone are the times where you expected to play for 35-60 minutes a game. Now most of these games end within 25 minutes. DFT doesn't provide enough damage output to warrant it's use especially with lifesteal and spell vamp. you can heal through the DOTs. But it is hard to heal through a burst. Actually I would argue nigh on impossible unless you were tanky or a Yi using meditate.

Paladin 0f Life1 votes

{quoted}

Both. This is a keystone that has ended so many games early. The damage output from that one burst sends most champions back to their turret and even backing out of fear. Even though they could continue the fight. The extra damage it provides is insane and helps in one v one situations which let's face it, though we revolve around team fighting, picks come often each game. Gone are the times where you expected to play for 35-60 minutes a game. Now most of these games end within 25 minutes. DFT doesn't provide enough damage output to warrant it's use especially with lifesteal and spell vamp. you can heal through the DOTs. But it is hard to heal through a burst. Actually I would argue nigh on impossible unless you were tanky or a Yi using meditate.

What about the low elo games that take an hour not to mention the recent pro games that took around 50 mins

laksjhdflkjah1 votes

Theoretically anything works in low elo and pro games

DeloricVI1 votes

I can see your point; DFT doesn't have grevoius wounds like ignite does, making ignite pretty useful by comparison... however, I'm talking about how champions (like Veigar) will seriously struggle getting this to land in lane... so, is it worth getting if you'll never use it? I usually take DFT, then I go and snag masteries way down the cunning tree, personally. Again, I counter my own argument with something I said earlier, saying that these are the things you play around to use more often, but a lot of mages like Veigar, Morgana, and Xerath, aren't meant to combo that much, as to make it more worth getting. I could see it on kat; she hits lots of targets and does a lot of combos. Then, you have people that run Tlord on supports like Soraka and Taric, which is just silly. Again, I can see a lot of usefulness for it... I'm sure lulu could probably get good procs by just poking a lot, but Soraka? There's literally a mastery right next to it hand-crafted for her, and she doesn't poke.

Some people just do tlord for no reason :/

laksjhdflkjah1 votes

{quoted}

I can see your point; DFT doesn't have grevoius wounds like ignite does, making ignite pretty useful by comparison... however, I'm talking about how champions (like Veigar) will seriously struggle getting this to land in lane... so, is it worth getting if you'll never use it? I usually take DFT, then I go and snag masteries way down the cunning tree, personally. Again, I counter my own argument with something I said earlier, saying that these are the things you play around to use more often, but a lot of mages like Veigar, Morgana, and Xerath, aren't meant to combo that much, as to make it more worth getting. I could see it on kat; she hits lots of targets and does a lot of combos. Then, you have people that run Tlord on supports like Soraka and Taric, which is just silly. Again, I can see a lot of usefulness for it... I'm sure lulu could probably get good procs by just poking a lot, but Soraka? There's literally a mastery right next to it hand-crafted for her, and she doesn't poke.

Some people just do tlord for no reason :/

Just take Stormraider. Since you don't like TLord and DfT isn't that great on Veigar you might as well do drive by nukes then run like sanic.

Aeolian Melodies1 votes

Free damage for following many champ's default pattern VISIBLE damage that happens in 1 go (as opposed to DFT) Highly accessible being at the bottom of a tree fit for damage dealers and uility-oriented champions alike

DeloricVI1 votes

Actually, not a lot of mages (that I get recommended to play Tlord on) don't have good ways to keep combo'ing off. They usually have no attack speed, no multi-hit spells (like, say, Zigg's minefielld), and usually will only get one tlord proc off during a teamfight or initiation. If it weren't for the early game damage, it wouldn't be worth it.

laksjhdflkjah1 votes

It's not the best in every situation but its pretty freaking awesome in most situations. It gives a crazy boost early game, which is especially helpful for my main(s). I would say that burst>sustained damage at this point of the meta, especially since sustained damage is only needed in the late late game. Champions with area DoTs can use DfT to crazy effectiveness but for a champion like Veigar his spells won't generate enough hits to do the same. TLord is very easy to Proc as well. If you have enough AP the target will die too fast to make use of DfT anyway. Even playing Zyra (who makes use of DoT in her core) DfT seemed lack luster because it didn't finish anyone off, and anyone I did kill died before the keystone did anything. On Annie, Tibbers could 1v1 a player by procing Tlord. To top it off the defense keystones are in a pretty weird spot right now, storm raider and windspeaker are really niche, and the "offense" masteries are really only helpful to a select few. IE Tryn/Yas

As for the scaling runes games end really quickly, thus levels 1-8 (most scaling runes become better than flat runes at this point) are pretty defining. If you can pull ahead by just 400 gold using the early power of flat runes you can buy that cloth/time/sword to boost your stats even more. TLDR the early advantage outweighs the late game advantage at this time. Champions that avoid fighting until 6 do pretty well with scaling. I personally prefer scaling armor runes on Soraka.

DeloricVI1 votes

Well, you don't notice DFT, because it's a passive damage over time with no obvious particle effect. Why would you notice? DFT is a boon to burst mages in late game because while decree is really flashy and easy to see how much damage it does, DFT will hit squishy targets hard, and help to keep damage on tanks, ideally. Unless I'm missing a cooldown period between procs or something. I guess I'm more asking why people refuse to believe that DFT belongs on any champion, much less one that could also benefit from Tlord's Decree in any discernible way.

laksjhdflkjah1 votes

But if you hit a squishy in endgame why aren't they dead before DfT ticks enough times? By not notice I mean I don't see any difference in damage while in game or post game graphs, because they ideally would have died in the burst. I think most people go for TLord over DfT because its much stronger early game, and the trade off in endgame isn't dramatically in DfTs favor. Personally, I don't want to engage in a sustained fight early on so in the case of TLord vs DfT I'd take TLord. However I personally think Stormraider is THE best.

DeloricVI1 votes

Oh, yeah, that would be great for Veigar, "I chunked your health, now I'm either going to charge in to my death or run away!" I guess it's good if you need to disengage or if you manage to ult someone and kill them for the purpose of disengaging, but using it to run it would be suicide, lol. Unless you needed to clean up kills.

laksjhdflkjah1 votes

I think it just helps positioning with Immobile mages in a general aspect. With Zyra I tend to just flash burst and run behind the tank after everyone realized Wait that's not REALLY a support! Burn the witch! its pretty easy to keep on as well, Sona does it pretty easily with just a gauntlet.

Princess Emma1 votes

Before the patch, Thunderlord's Decree was considered one of the better if not the best Keystone to take since the others didn't bring much to the table compared to itself.

The other keystones got their perspective boost, but guess what?

People don't read patch notes, people wait for the pros to give their opinion, and the patch is fairly recent so not many people have adapted or changed yet (possibly scared to change) or have not found any great synergy for champions with the more updated keystones.

Only time will tell if Thunderlord's is still the best go-to or if people have changed their taste or not.

DeloricVI1 votes

This is something I wasn't aware of; when the new masteries came out, I was too busy with school work to play league, and after finals my connection wasn't stable enough... so I've missed quite a few patches. I'd heard about the change and knew generally what some of the keystone masteries did, but little else.

I guess it is starting to make a lot more sense that everyone still wants to put it in their build despite any logic that says that it isn't actually optimal.

More from Gameplay

More by DeloricVI