Minus 5 movment speed on a champ that builds 
and 
as core items. Oh and also a 
.
So... we made him not only the mechanically easiest champ in the game, but also gave him enough damage and tankyness to outclass all other champions that actually have to put effort into killing someone.
Not to mention % health true damage. Didn't you guys learn from the Fiora rework? True damage is fine - if you have to work for it. Like this? Just feels unfair.
Critmaster Garen18 voteshis winrate dropped from 55% to 53% with the movement nerf. it was 5 base ms, and 5% on his q. meaning it affected his base movement, and the movement while his q is active twice.
he will always be banworthy on bronze and silver, which makes up half the player base. its just something youll have to get used to.
also, next patch theyll change the villain mechanic that kills against garen will not count towards villain stacks anymore. this will have a large impact on his laning, as it will heavily impair his ability to come back from feeding a kill.
if his winrate drops off just 1% off that, there will be no reason to touch him further.
[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EszJrhoM,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-09-10T01:19:47.081+0000)
Well it's a bit silly anways: THE MIGHTY WARRIOR OF DEMCAIA THAT WITHSTAND EVERY CHALLANGE HE TAKES HEAD ON - is a master of running away...
i think that title falls to them 
HighH17 votes COWARDSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS runs away from fight
Critmaster Garen10 votes
realizes that hes not winning a fight
hikuuuuuuuuuuuu kicks his opponents 2 screens away and w's over a wall
Only Play Darius5 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EszJrhoM,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-09-10T03:49:30.138+0000)
realizes that hes not winning a fight
This is what I hate most about Lee Sin. Just kicks you a mile away whenever a fight (that he usually picks mind you) isn't going his way and you have no hope of catching back up to him.
Silents4291 votesYep pretty much nailed it.
As a Garen main I think his durability is a bit insane, but the upcoming changes should put him in a good spot for most people.
Unknown1011 votesWTF why should we get used to bs like this y cant they just leave the fucking shit alone. ffs if its not broken.
Critmaster Garen3 votesWTF why should we get used to bs
because this game isnt supposed to be balanced around the inability of people to learn. the juggernauts are extremely strong at lower divisions of solo que. learning how to outplay them and using kiting and mobility tools to full effect is part of the game.
at that point they dont become too strong to deal with anymore.
nerfing the champs to make it easier on less skilled players is backwards design. its the players that have to learn new mechanics, instead of the developers that have to remove the requirement for these mechanics.
otherwise why dont we just cut the crap and remove every division below master tier and place every player there so everyone can feel good about himself?
AL0001 votesbecause of early and everyone slowly understood how to deal with garen...
Orangesilk2 votesGaren still has a 53% winrate and 55% banrate in plat+.
So no, it isn't a rank issue, it's a champ issue.
I mean, ffs, in bronze the bans are something like Cho, Morg and Leona xD
Critmaster Garen6 votesGaren still has a 53% winrate and 55% banrate in plat+.
So no, it isn't a rank issue, it's a champ issue.
I mean, ffs, in bronze the bans are something like Cho, Morg and Leona xD
irrelevant. he still has enough games played to pinpoint his actual winrate when ehs played fairly accurately. if more people would pick him, chances are rather that his winrate would go down, as is usual with most champs.
Orangesilk2 votes2nd most picked toplaner... And his pickrate would be higher if he didn't have 55% banrate...Try making something else up.
Critmaster Garen5 votes2nd most picked toplaner... And his pickrate would be higher if he didn't have 55% banrate...Try making something else up.
right. his pickrate would be higher. and the same champions with a higher pickrate also usually have a lower winrate. if he wasnt banned, it wouldnt mean his winrate would go up.
it would still be at 53% or lower. and with the nerf to his villain mechanic, it should be enough to balance him out.
SaltyKracka1 votesHis pickrate is already incredibly high. Sure, his winrate might go lower if even more people were playing him, but the fact that both it and his pick rate are already as high as they are suggests that his power level is, if anything, being underestimated.
Critmaster Garen8 votesHis pickrate is already incredibly high. Sure, his winrate might go lower if even more people were playing him, but the fact that both it and his pick rate are already as high as they are suggests that his power level is, if anything, being underestimated.
his pickrate is at 12% thats not incredibly high.
vayne has a pickrate of almost 40%. jinx a pickrate of almost 30%. some mid laners have pickrate around 30% for extended durations of the game. ahri has 18% pickrate.
please dont exaggerate.
SaltyKracka1 votesVayne's current pickrate is...I would like to say unprecedented, but I don't actually have the proper data for it. Suffice it to say that I don't exactlly think she's weak. Jinx and Ahri are indeed both incredibly powerful and picked very often.
But you know why they're not banned as often right now? Because Garen and company are eating all of the bans.
Critmaster Garen4 votesVayne's current pickrate is...I would like to say unprecedented, but I don't actually have the proper data for it. Suffice it to say that I don't exactlly think she's weak. Jinx and Ahri are indeed both incredibly powerful and picked very often.
But you know why they're not banned as often right now? Because Garen and company are eating all of the bans.
lol. you might just as well ban jinx and vayne. so because theyre adc theyre not banworthy? theyre pretty op.
lux has almost 56% winrate right now and people are still banning garen and darius. because thats just what solo que is. people are banning champions that are generally banned and not the ones that are actually strong. even in plat.
it takes forever for people to get off the hype train and switch their bans to currently strong champions for some reason. because it takes them forever to realize there are actually stronger champs running around.
SaltyKracka1 votesI don't disagree on the whole hype train thing, but the fact that there are so many champs with outsized pick/win/banrates suggests to me more that Rito needs to do a heavy round of nerfs for all of them than that Garen is just fine.
Critmaster Garen3 votesI don't disagree on the whole hype train thing, but the fact that there are so many champs with outsized pick/win/banrates suggests to me more that Rito needs to do a heavy round of nerfs for all of them than that Garen is just fine.
and they are giving them out. the problem is, that even seemingly small nerfs have a large impact on a champion.
they outright said, that if nerfing garens villain mechanic hits him too hard, theyre gonna buff him again by putting some power back into his laning.
they seem to think that hes in a pretty good spot right now, and its more about removing a potentially frustrating mechanic of receiving the villain mark for killing garen in lane, which puts yourself at a disadvantage for future trades. but overall hes not too strong.
Countermander1 votesI underestimate your grandmother.
I quote myself:
"I am a Korean plat who loves to visit the boards.
A statistical report on Solo Que LoL plays in Korea have been announced recently,
and GAREN was the lowest in Win Rates in TOP Lane, with 46.31% WR, for Diamonds and above.
Let that sink in.
As someone who plays a lot of Garen, I can no longer play him well because of how he's changed; I won 70% of games before the rework, now I keep losing.
Garen has to work his butt off to RUN TO THAT DUDE to slam his ult. If you can't kite, you must be in silver and below."
Here's the link to the stat report. http://www.inven.co.kr/board/powerbbs.php?come_idx=2778&l=37854
MetalGearTeemu4 votesWhat if I told you that Garens win rate would drop even without the MS nerf.
Ser Garland10 votes[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EszJrhoM,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-09-10T00:54:19.837+0000)
Minus 5 movment speed on a champ that builds
So... we made him not only the mechanically easiest champ in the game, but also gave him enough damage and tankyness to outclass all other champions that actually have to put effort into killing someone.
Not to mention % health true damage. Didn't you guys learn from the Fiora rework? True damage is fine - if you have to work for it. Like this? Just feels unfair.
You DO realize that Garen's been like that before his rework? You DO realize that Garen has always been a health regenerating power house that you very same people called "unviable" ,"uncompetetive" as you laughed behind your Leblanc's and your Zed's.
In fact, Riot nerfed so much about him. Beyond those movement speed nerfs, he's received a nerf to his only CC, and the removal of his natural tenacity and percentile armour and Magi Resist.
And this damn %health true damage you're throwing left and right only applies to Garen for ONE champion on the enemy team at a time, and it's as situational as they have to be winning the game already by killing all of poor Garen's friends.
You nerf Garen anymore and he'll be more niche and uncompetetive then he ever was.
Or is that what you want? You want Garen to be a beginner's champion with a begginer's skill ceiling. Talk about keeping' a %%%%% down.
You say Garen needs compensation nerfs for all these new MS items? Where's Riven's compensation nerfs?
You say Garen is fine without his free tenacity, yet Irrelia still prospers with it.
You say Garen's kit is outdated and needs revamping when Pantheon can just point and click spear nukes all day. (This guy shits on Garen btw.)
You say Garen's situational true damage is too much when these 
assholes exist.
Why don't you play Garen and see how far you get with him against a competent human being. As a Garen main, this is for one v fouring my team with your so called 'try hard' champions. FOR THE CAUSE!!
Dunkrius2g6 votesPerhaps you forgot to mention that the amount of time it takes for him to deal approx. 12% max health true damage, it takes 1 second for vayne to deal more than that.
SaltyToplaneGoat5 votesvayne has maybe a 1/5 of garen's hp and less than half of his defensive stats. You can actually KILL her. That's the difference.
MalzaharAnyLane7 votesVayne only needs to complete a BOTRK to do more than a Garen with and has enough CC to make up for not being tanky like Garen. God forbid she actually does build tanky with BOTRK and some attack speed, bruiser Vayne is just as scary as carry Vayne but doesn't die.
Ser Garland5 votes[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EszJrhoM,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2015-09-10T05:06:11.703+0000)
vayne has maybe a 1/5 of garen's hp and less than half of his defensive stats. You can actually KILL her. That's the difference.
Vayne can kite A garen with those items you mentioned for days.
Loken Stoneheart6 votes5 MS, 5% MS removed from Q. It wombo combos too, because %speed increases are calculated using base speed, meaning his lower base speed means less speed gained from the Q. I'm not really stating if he's broken one way or another right now, but you're underestimating the amount of speed lost.
The thing that gets me about him is when I get an early kill in lane, it means I lose lane because now I'm the villain for the rest of laning phase. But, I'm pretty sure they're changing that next patch, so, no real gripes here.
Maximum Morde4 votesThey just need to make it so his Q speed boost only works running toward enemy champions.
SaltyToplaneGoat3 votes...that would be a start I guess.
They should have given him a Fiora-level kit revamp, his kit is simply too old and outdated to be healthy and strong in the current state (Wasn't garen one of the first champions in the game? )
HighH11 votesGaren is old but not part of the original 40 champions
Ser Garland8 votes[{quoted}](name=Maximum Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EszJrhoM,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-09-10T00:55:20.521+0000)
They just need to make it so his Q speed boost only works running toward enemy champions.
And do the same for Riven's mobility? The bitch is faster than Garen with all those items.
Danyoja1 votesShe also doesn't need to build boots either.
Godaren1 votes[{quoted}](name=Maximum Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EszJrhoM,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-09-10T00:55:20.521+0000)
They just need to make it so his Q speed boost only works running toward enemy champions.
No they don't I've played garen for a long time just revert the ult change back his q is part of his kit that is cool and unique and certainly not the reason he is ban worthy right now.
MalzaharAnyLane4 votesExcept the Fiora rework is worse than Garen in all the strangest ways (even stronger lane phase than before, halved Q lunge range for no reason, teamfight ult that is either snowbally or useless)
LankPants2 votesAt least Fiora's actually interesting though. Garen could probably be played by a monkey and still be effective.
MetalGearTeemu2 voteshe certainly is effective at playing against witless monkeys, if his release win-rate was proof of anything. :^)
Cosnirak4 votesTotally disagree with you. I don't think he's been ban worthy for even one moment this entire time, and certainly not after the nerfs. When I see people ban Garen I just laugh and realize they clearly have very little experience with or against him. He's no longer awful but banning him is laziness at best.
Stephenizgod3 votesHmm I think Garen is fine :P
Matezoide3 votesHe is definetly ban worthy, but not near as powerful now. The movement speed nerf is actually pretty huge. Statistically, there are plenty of champions that are more problematic than him.
The one change he needs now is the tweak to his Villain Mechanic.
Dont get me wrong, he is still going to be very powerful after this change, so if you want to get him gutted back into the trash can, you are going to be disapointed.
Countermander3 votesHello, unintelligible Kyoki Shinkuro (good choice of name for a European)
I am a Korean plat who loves to visit the boards.
A statistical report on Solo Que LoL plays in Korea have been announced recently,
and GAREN was the lowest in Win Rates in TOP Lane, with 46.31% WR, for Diamonds and above.
Let that sink in.
As someone who plays a lot of Garen, I can no longer play him well because of how he's changed; I won 70% of games before the rework, now I keep losing.
Garen has to work his butt off to RUN TO THAT DUDE to slam his ult. If you can't kite, you must be in silver and below.
Here's the link to the stat report. http://www.inven.co.kr/board/powerbbs.php?come_idx=2778&l=37854
Maximum Morde2 votesWell think about it, if he can't just lololol sprint away from enemies when he gets in trouble, then he can be shutdown. It might be the only change he needs.
SaltyToplaneGoat3 votesWell it's a bit silly anways: THE MIGHTY WARRIOR OF DEMCAIA THAT WITHSTAND EVERY CHALLANGE HE TAKES HEAD ON - is a master of running away...
Dengeden2 votesIf you can't deal with him yes. It's the same Yi, Nasus and trash tier cheesers like Yas and Zed. Don't like 'em? Ban 'em. There aren't any power picks to worry about, so who cares what you ban?
The Loveless1 votesGarenteed for Worlds.
LankPants1 votesHaving a champ deal carry level damage with just a BC is a terrible idea. I don't know why Riot fails to understand that.
Retillin1 votesYou pointed out the problem. It's not his kit that is really the main issue. It's the fact that the new items help to cover up juggernaut's "weaknesses". That is the biggest thing Riot flopped on. They should have waited and released the items after the worlds patch.
Xizz3l1 votesIf he builds swiftness and you still can't beat him then you should really git gud, no offense
hgjkdlsaf jeldvb1 votesJust cause he was nerfed doesn't mean he'll be balanced. Nerfs often overshoot or fall short of the target. People need to get out of the mentality that quantity matters when it comes to balance changes, cause it really doesn't.
ElegantDoge1 votesI wasn't banning before,i won't ban him.He's still a bruiser with limited mobility.I'd rather face a garen than a Darius honestly.
stevedoesmc1 votesno one asked for a garen rework...... he was still freelo before the rework too
