PSA: average game times at patch 8.11 ranged from 27min (low mmr) to 23min (high mmr)

Critmaster Garen·Jun 13, 2018·99 votes·19,814 views

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/game-durations

just in case youre wondering why crit adc struggle.

theyre meant to be weak early and scale into lategame. lategame doesnt exist.

the problem is not with marksmen, their items or their power curves. games are on average a whole 10 minutes shorter than they should be, and this is what needs to be fixed.

the worst thing they could do right now is to react with knee jerk buffs to marksmen like they did in season 7 under the same circumstances.

fix the snowballing issues, give them time to scale and become relevant, and you fix crit marksmen.

the end.

99 Comments

TwitchInMyPantsJun 13, 201823 votes

Riot nerfed towers the previous patch while increasing the amount of gold they were worth for killing them and also let AP champions deal way more damage to towers. Is it any surprise that snowballing is crazy right now? Though Riot seems to want shorter games for whatever reason. Watch them do some crazy patch at some point to rework gold where they effectively make you have 3 big items at 20 minutes so that late game champs feel rewarding or something similar. They seem eager to do anything to make games end faster and make towers weaker while somehow making all the champs float around a 50% winrate.

This game is full of champions that were designed around 30-40 minute average game time. They're trying to cram them into a game environment where games last 15-25 mins.

Critmaster GarenJun 13, 20189 votes

{quoted}

Riot nerfed towers the previous patch while increasing the amount of gold they were worth for killing them and also let AP champions deal way more damage to towers. Is it any surprise that snowballing is crazy right now? Though Riot seems to want shorter games for whatever reason. Watch them do some crazy patch at some point to rework gold where they effectively make you have 3 big items at 20 minutes so that late game champs feel rewarding or something similar. They seem eager to do anything to make games end faster and make towers weaker while somehow making all the champs float around a 50% winrate.

This game is full of champions that were designed around 30-40 minute average game time. They're trying to cram them into a game environment where games last 15-25 mins.

making other champion types be able to siege turrets better and take them just as fast as marksmen is ok, to make other champion types be able to keep up with ranged adc in objective control.

however, the buffs to the baron upped minions, the damage nerf to baron itself, the gutting of turret health and increase of turret gold was entirely uncalled for.

i cant remember anyone asking for that shit. the player base has been begging riot to make turrets overall harder to take down, and they keep nerfing them instead...

Anin777Jun 14, 20181 votes

The reason they want shorter games is clear. The competition they face from other games, coughs Fortnite coughs, is due to short matches. In fortnite, you can easily quit with no leaverbuster, you are IN CONTROL of whether you win or lose, you don't have to babysit 4 other potential kids and it actually feels extremely rewarding when you win. The changes Riot has been making over the years is an obvious struggle to corner some of the battle Royale market. And once BO4 BR releases, woohoo, Riot will really feel the heat.

Metal JannaJun 15, 20181 votes

Fortnite is the sort of game where you get lucky enough to get the jump on someone, and then you get lucky enough to land one crit (headshot) and they die instantly, never even getting a chance to fight back. Or they survive the first shot because you weren't lucky and then they just instantly throw down a whole fortress which they can somehow build faster than you can shoot, and then they pop up over the top and try their luck at landing an instant kill headshot. Battles are near instant and their outcomes determined mostly by luck.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I play League of Legends because it's NOT that kind of game. You have a wider variety of abilities. You never get deleted before you even see the threat. You can actually out-duel someone who would otherwise have killed you, not because you got lucky and they missed, but because you actually got to use your abilities instead of dying instantly. Dying doesn't mean waiting through queue time and the pre-match period again before you get to actually play, and you don't insta-lose 33% of your games just because someone else was luckier in the 30 seconds after minions spawn.

I only play Fortnite because I have a console player buddy who's into that sort of game. I find it more tilting than League of Legends and that's saying something.

Anin777Jun 16, 20181 votes

"Luck" Ha! Yeah not really. You think of fortnite as "per game". You should think about it as over a number of games. Sure, in 1 or 2 games, you get caught offguard but in the 10 games you don't, fights are decided by building, positioning, quick thinking. It requires WAYYYY more concentration and thought than league atm. You build. Edit. Lose high ground. Regain it. Think of what traps to use and so many other little details. League? Make sure you have an idea of where the enemy jgl is. Do you have high dmg output? Yes. All in. gg. I feel more of a rush playing Fortnite because I HAVE to think fast or else I could lose a battle in less than a second. And guess what? Even if I lose, I can quit the game and start a new one. Just. Like. That. But with league, I have to sit through a harrowing 30 mins before 4 people decide to do the sensible thing and ff. Also, I've been playing league for 5 years so I can understand your naivety. If you had seen S5 league, you'd throw up at this current state of league.

HalcyonDwellerJun 13, 201816 votes

Yes PLEASE!!! Can we fix the short snowbally crap this game has turned into? I really miss the days when games didn't feel like they were decided so early.

Baby sitting ADCJun 13, 20181 votes

Yeah I understand this, and the fact they want to make it a 20-30 minute game.

The 20-30 minute games means less AFK times. 30-40 minutes could be an increase in AFK times at that point, less convenience for people who want to play a 'quick' match. (Which I mean I think Twisted Tree Line is for that? Or Aram.)

KarunamonJun 13, 20185 votes

The 20-30 minute games means less AFK times

Source?

y0r1ckJun 13, 20188 votes

His brain

KarunamonJun 13, 20189 votes

Wrong side of the body.

The number of "I have to go" AFKs pales in comparison to the number of ragequit AFKs.

Baby sitting ADCJun 16, 20181 votes

*her

I mean I was thinking with logic. Unforuntately I guess people don't like that sort of thing here. I'm stating though most games I've played I've had less AFKs under the 20-30 minute mark vs say around 40-60 minutes. Even then there's the remake if they're AFK with in the first five minutes which matters less.

y0r1ckJun 16, 20181 votes

Yeah I know you were using logic, that's why I said brain.

TerozuJun 13, 20181 votes

Ummm... Riot gave the data game lengths average went down by like 2 minutes from season 1 to season 7...

HalcyonDwellerJun 13, 20182 votes

Then why are most of my games over by 20-30 minutes? I rarely agree to a surrender vote, so it's not that.

TerozuJun 13, 20183 votes

Because the average game length was never as high as people think. It hit its peak in i think... season 4 maybe 5?

The highest average was (i think) 28 min and now its like (i think) 26 min average.

Basically the average game length was never super high to begin with. Peopl just remember those 'epic' matches more and have a misconstrued view on how games used to work when it hasn't actually changed much.

Average game times have not gone down drastically. It is extremely exaggerated.

Critmaster GarenJun 13, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Because the average game length was never as high as people think. It hit its peak in i think... season 4 maybe 5?

The highest average was (i think) 28 min and now its like (i think) 26 min average.

Basically the average game length was never super high to begin with. Peopl just remember those 'epic' matches more and have a misconstrued view on how games used to work when it hasn't actually changed much.

Average game times have not gone down drastically. It is extremely exaggerated.

the hell? riot literally released game statistics a couple of times themselves. ive SEEN the stuff meddler posted, and game times used to be at an average of 35 minutes.

they also mentioned repeatedly in their dev blogs and comments over the years that their goal was to cut down game times.

something doesnt add up here.

when one of meddlers own statistic used to show on AVERAGE 35 minute games in the past, and now theyre at 27 min to 23 min AVERAGE, how is this not an indication for drastically shorter games?

TerozuJun 13, 20181 votes

Ummm no.

I dont believe Meddlr ever showed that nd the tool tip said it could range from 30-40 minutes. Not that it was an average.

Critmaster GarenJun 13, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Ummm no.

I dont believe Meddlr ever showed that nd the tool tip said it could range from 30-40 minutes. Not that it was an average.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/UJMPTj81zIM/maxresdefault.jpg

can you read the tooltip on the gamemode selection? so much for "games always lasted 30 minutes".

most games were in between this 30 - 45 minute window back then, which means a bit more than 35 minutes on average.

sorry, but the last time ive seen average game time statistics like in season 5, they were still around 35 minutes on average. the current 27 to 23 min is a large cut compared to how long the games used to take.

this massive cut in game time that first happened around season 6 and 7 really messed with champion scalings.

HalcyonDwellerJun 13, 20182 votes

Hmm alright, then is it just that games are way more snowbally? Because something is definitely wrong still.

Critmaster GarenJun 13, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Ummm... Riot gave the data game lengths average went down by like 2 minutes from season 1 to season 7...

i call bullshit.

source: riots own client used to have a tooltip when selecting summoners rift of games typically lasting 40 minutes.

ive played since season 1, and the majortity of games used to go on to the 40 minute mark with about 5 minute variance, and super rarely games would last 50 minutes and upwards.

they also cut at least one or two minutes at the start of the game before minions spawned. so thats already impossible for games to be only two minutes shorter.

are they really trying to tell us that the difference between 40 minutes and 23 minutes is only 2 minutes? the math is a little bit off there, lol.

Its All SkillzzJun 13, 201815 votes

Ye i miss the 40-50 min matches where everyone full build and you go into a big team fight and get aced an lose or ace enemy team an possibly win, not this 20 min rush baron build 5 banners siege down mid with unkillable minions an take out the enemy base.

IcyPepperJun 13, 20186 votes

build 5 banners

Well at least they just got rid of that.

AMYS GRAVEJun 13, 201811 votes

They've been struggling with this concept since 5.22. Don't expect them to pick up on this idea at this point.

Power CosmicJun 13, 20188 votes

I agree, sort of. I do not think marksmen should be the default scaling group. I think individual appropriate champs should be balanced into scaling carries.
Like KogMaw but not MissFortune . Risk/Reward

Kitsunes LustJun 13, 20187 votes

And this is why pros are bringing mages like ryze and vlad into bot now

Baby sitting ADCJun 13, 20182 votes

Yeah honestly its kinda annoying from the support stand point to have people do that. Remember the ADC Ziggs trend? Yeah that was annoying because there was no AD in bot and made is so rough to lane since everyone could build MR. Now if Ryze and Vlad are going bot that makes it still frustrating but I'm positive that's literally what they made Pyke for now.

Cause you know Pyke is your AD when you have an mage carry. And they KNOW they can't stop people doing that crap for a whole patch or more. (Trust me this trend lasted FOREVER in bronze for Ziggs "ADC".)

Kitsunes LustJun 14, 20181 votes

lol from what i heard, with these nerfs to nearly all adcs in base stats and items and all, and with how fast games are now averaging, adcs wont even have the time to even scale up and they would be essentially useless because they cant get the items, while mages can scale much faster. i think that's what i heard the pro commentators say. i dont know

and ziggs apc was a thing i believe becasuse of his ability to pressure and absolutely destroy the crap out of the turrets. but i dont play ziggs soooooooo....

Baby sitting ADCJun 16, 20181 votes

I know exactly why they nerfed ADCs. Which you think NERFING ADCs wouldn't be the solution to their 'early game scaling' issues. Maybe its just me, but also nerfing shield support/healing support literally out puts most of the supports in this game. This patch is literally a giant fucking mess over all from what I see.

Kitsunes LustJun 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I know exactly why they nerfed ADCs. Which you think NERFING ADCs wouldn't be the solution to their 'early game scaling' issues. Maybe its just me, but also nerfing shield support/healing support literally out puts most of the supports in this game. This patch is literally a giant fucking mess over all from what I see.

tell me about it. its a clown fiesta a riot headquarters lol

ThilmerJun 13, 20184 votes

I played a game today.

We were losing, and someone said: "Don't worry, we have better late game".

My response? "Man, is minute 25, we are already in the late game".

We lost the game, obviously.

HekaPimpJun 13, 20183 votes

That is a big improvement from when the website said that Challenger games were 15 mins on average

SugarliciousJun 14, 20183 votes

You know why it's 27 min? because people who feed refuse to surrender the first two times, games actually last 10 minutes. Every single time, somebody will feed, and not even jungler can help anymore because they are weaker and the fed champ can easily go 2 vs 1. So yes, fix the snowballing.

SpencerJun 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You know why it's 27 min? because people who feed refuse to surrender the first two times, games actually last 10 minutes. Every single time, somebody will feed, and not even jungler can help anymore because they are weaker and the fed champ can easily go 2 vs 1. So yes, fix the snowballing.

Bot... bot will feed. 100% of the time, it is bot.

SugarliciousJun 14, 20182 votes

Not when you're bot, then it's usually top. Or Yasuo, if you have Yasuo, it's gonna be Yasuo, no matter where he is.

Malix FarwinJun 13, 20182 votes

If i am not mistaken(and phreak has even said this on a number of patch rundowns), i believe the desirable game time for Summoner's Rift is 30m. Do not think they want late game to be over 30m but around that time. So around 27m is probably their target range while 23m is a bit short of that.

Critmaster GarenJun 13, 201822 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Esv0h81A,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-06-13T17:44:21.486+0000)

If i am not mistaken(and phreak has even said this on a number of patch rundowns), i believe the desirable game time for Summoner's Rift is 30m. Do not think they want late game to be over 30m but around that time. So around 27m is probably their target range while 23m is a bit short of that.

if theyre aiming for 25 to 30 minutes on average, then thats fucking retarded and dellusional by riot. the game isnt made for that.

theyd have to rebuild it from the ground up. you can already see the negative impact a gradual cut of gametime had on gameplay.

cutting game times has robbed individual champions of their power curves, and unique phases of the game where they can shine. early, mid and lategame started to overlap into an indistinguishable mess.

when adc are buffed early, they outscale bruisers and mages before they can have an impact. when they increase the snowball (which is the only way to decrease game times), they make lategame champs fucking worthless.

they need to stop trying to turn this into 10 to 20 minute battle royale games and get realistic. the game time that worked best for league so far was 35 minutes on average.

infact the times when this game had its largest growth in popularity and player population was still when matches lasted 35 to 40 minutes per usual.

they might be trying to cut game times to make them easier to watch on the esports crowd (though those a snore fest anyway and probably allways will be), and to accomodate the asian player base whos mostly playing from internet cafes and wants to cram as many matches into an hour as possible. but trying to shorten matches too much simply has proven to affect the game way too negatively.

Malix FarwinJun 13, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Esv0h81A,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2018-06-13T18:31:14.166+0000)

if theyre aiming for 25 to 30 minutes on average, then thats fucking retarded and dellusional by riot. the game isnt made for that.

theyd have to rebuild it from the ground up. you can already see the negative impact a gradual cut of gametime had on gameplay.

cutting game times has robbed individual champions of their power curves, and unique phases of the game where they can shine. early, mid and lategame started to overlap into an indistinguishable mess.

when adc are buffed early, they outscale bruisers and mages before they can have an impact. when they increase the snowball (which is the only way to decrease game times), they make lategame champs fucking worthless.

they need to stop trying to turn this into 10 to 20 minute battle royale games and get realistic. the game time that worked best for league so far was 35 minutes on average.

infact the times when this game had its largest growth in popularity and player population was still when matches lasted 35 to 40 minutes per usual.

they might be trying to cut game times to make them easier to watch on the esports crowd (though those a snore fest anyway and probably allways will be), and to accomodate the asian player base whos mostly playing from internet cafes and wants to cram as many matches into an hour as possible. but trying to shorten matches too much simply has proven to affect the game way too negatively.

I mean people can get salty at me all they want, this is a riot stance, not mines.

Critmaster GarenJun 13, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Esv0h81A,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2018-06-13T21:15:04.631+0000)

I mean people can get salty at me all they want, this is a riot stance, not mines.

i didnt get salty at you though. i specifically stated that its idiotic by riot to aim for such short games.

a lot of the champion balance and champion identities rely on distinct game phases to last a certain time, so these champions can have game impact specifically during those stages.

nasus and veigar were always designed to be weak early and really strong lategame. the difficulty was in getting there. the same goes for most crit marksmen.

renekton was always a lane bully who fell off later on, but had the potential to translate his bullying into a snowball and midgame carry.

if you make games last 20 minutes and all carries "lategame" champions (as in powerspiking with 2 items at 15 minutes), youre creating an environment where one type of carry is always the better choice.

until recently crit marksmen just outshined everyone.

Tentacle AdvisorJun 14, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Esv0h81A,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2018-06-13T18:31:14.166+0000)

they need to stop trying to turn this into...battle royale game...

It's sad that this is exactly what I feel Riot is trying to do with the game. It truly feels like Riot is trying to slowly change League of Legends from a MOBA to a Battle Royale kill fest.

Usefully UselessJun 13, 20182 votes

Late game doesn't exist because of the current trash state of the game.

When LCK picks Master Yi and Korean pros can't even contain him. Or Nunu / Karthas boosting strats.

Well we know any respectable company would feel ashamed to put out a product as terrible as the current content. Not Riot.

How can anyone that's not mentally sane feel like this is how the game should be? If my job were to put out good product (which it is) and I just continually put out defects and underperforming merchandise I would be fired. Do it at Riot? Raises for everybody!

I've been mad at points and lows in a little of the past few seasons but this really does take the cake for me. Can't wait for the Riot HQ to shut down and fire every last content developer

Critmaster GarenJun 13, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Usefully Useless,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Esv0h81A,comment-id=0018,timestamp=2018-06-13T22:34:38.480+0000)

Late game doesn't exist because of the current trash state of the game.

When LCK picks Master Yi and Korean pros can't even contain him. Or Nunu / Karthas boosting strats.

Well we know any respectable company would feel ashamed to put out a product as terrible as the current content. Not Riot.

How can anyone that's not mentally sane feel like this is how the game should be? If my job were to put out good product (which it is) and I just continually put out defects and underperforming merchandise I would be fired. Do it at Riot? Raises for everybody!

I've been mad at points and lows in a little of the past few seasons but this really does take the cake for me. Can't wait for the Riot HQ to shut down and fire every last content developer

it has nothing to do with the champion picks.

turret health has been nerfed in the recent patches and the gold rewards for taking them have been increased. barond minions have received a giant buff not too long ago, while baron himself was neutered. he was risky to take for 1 patch, then they cut his damage in half.

all of these are "win more" mechanics that snowball a game for a team thats ahead.

if you win early, youre more likely to get more turrets easier, which means more global gold. youre more likely in the position to contest and take baron, which means you can use the improved buff to take the rest of the enemy turrets easier etc.

turret first blood still has a winrate of about 80%.

MorticianjohnJun 13, 20182 votes

I like shorter games. ARAM is a sweet spot at 20 min. Summoner rift I think 30 minutes is the sweet spot

DexterousGeckoJun 14, 20182 votes

15 aram, 25 summoner for me.

Seer of MindJun 14, 20182 votes

This is why damage needs to be reduced across the board, if there is less damage dealt, the less kills that happen in a game, the less kills, the lesser the snowball.

But of course there's the problem with mages having so much poke and dealing so much damage, practically im possible to play a melee champ mid lane unless they have some gap closer at a later level, Zed Akali Talon , so much in lane poke is what really causes the snowball tbh. Especially in bot lane, its rare for me to see a soraka nowadays that its pretty obvious why, she deals no damage, and her poke is barely anything, thus why champions like Lux and Morgana are more favorable in lane (high damage, high poke).

Attticus FinchJun 14, 20182 votes

Soraka has a 10% play rate and a 51% win rate in high ELO- she's super meta right now. What the hell are you talking about?

MordepoolJun 14, 20182 votes

You realize that an AVERAGE is determined by combining all game lengths then dividing by the total number of games. That means that games exist beyond 23 or 27 minute mark.
You know Late game. Where Marksmen are very powerful.

Frankly. The Whiny Marksmen mains can stop. Because the Game is Working as intended

Critmaster GarenJun 14, 20182 votes

{quoted}

You realize that an AVERAGE is determined by combining all game lengths then dividing by the total number of games. That means that games exist beyond 23 or 27 minute mark.
You know Late game. Where Marksmen are very powerful.

Frankly. The Whiny Marksmen mains can stop. Because the Game is Working as intended

i was talking about the average in both cases though. 30 min average at high mmr, and 35 min average at low mmr of past seasons is still a massive difference to 23 min or 27 min average game durations.

its not jsut about marksmen. if you remember those crazy nasus and veigar buffs from last season, they were also a result of the same issue. they basically never got into the position to scale anymore, since game times were cut down so significantly.

basically riot wants to cut down games times by 10 to 15 minutes, but their answer to champion scalings was to buff the early game of all lategame champions. be it champions like veigar, nasus or crit marksmen. this created some serious issues mainly with marksmen.

why would you ever pick a midgame power spiking champion in that environment, if you can pick one that power spikes midgame and owns lategame if its one of the few matches that lasts that long, or simply scales harder when he gets ahead?

there are barely significant game phases anymore where individual champions have distinct power spikes.

Blue Eye DragonJun 14, 20182 votes

I miss the long Games, that lead to the epic team fights at 80 or 90 mins into a game, That was an Epic game

Come on Riot Games, make the bases stronger and harder to break please

Promising GardenJun 14, 20182 votes

The current state of the game is giving me a headache @_@

NankyokuJun 14, 20182 votes

23? 90% of my ranked games the past 2 weeks have ended before 20 mins. The ones that didn't were artificially stalled by the enemy team so they could keep bming my team. In truth, most games are over by 15 minutes.