The PBE now has a sub-item for 
Unfortunately, I don't think it's gonna be much better off at this rate...
Just add 
to the build path already, this idea's been around for ages.
(Added bonus, they're stealth-nerfing 
top-lane with the new 
Hayaishi7 votesThey need to nerf IE if they want to keep it from being rushed by everyone.
Maybe give it less AD.
SouL1ess9 votes*deleted comment about Talon critting*
Critical hit itself needs a rework honestly. Critical hit is and should be powerful, but the fact that you can stack critical hit chance in a MOBA setting makes critical hits ridiculous.
Keyoshi4 votesThey should just remove crit all together, why did they get rid of dodge runes? because of rng. they didn't want someone that had 1% dodge to dodge at 1 health but its okay for crit to still be in the game? imo dodge was a balance to crit but thats just me.
Kuroi862 votesThey should just remove crit all together, why did they get rid of dodge runes? because of rng.
A. It's not as random as you think, Riot has already put a system in place to make it less random. Basically, so long as you have 1% crit chance, every basic attack causes your crit chance to go up until you crit.
B. Imagine how AD would need to be buffed to make up for the lack or crit. A similar system would need to be implemented or ADC would become obsolete (Sure you could buff abilities, but not AA without something similar to crit.) Now imagine how to buff AD to keep ADC' viable without absolutely driving bruisers insane with new power sources.
Sightless662 votesMake crit a %damage increase on autoattacks. That is all it really is anyway. If I have a 100% chance to crit for 100% more damage, I'm just doing 100% more autoattack damage. So, if I buy a brawler's glove, I now do 8% more damage with my autos. It now does the exact same job with no RNG.
Kuroi861 votesA. Already said this, it's not random.
B. All you do is take away crit and replace it with stacking AD (As I said, AD would need to be heavily buffed and three entire classes rebalanced around this change.)
Sightless662 votesYou said, and I quote, it's "not as random". That's still a bit random.
Pseudorandom distribution means that it is less random over long periods of time. Each individual attack still comes down to a random chance. While that chance may be a certain percentage over a large number of attacks, it still leaves the potential for a lucky or unlucky streak of 3-4 crits or no crits at all. Pseudorandom lowers that chance, but does not eliminate it.
Stacking AD means it would help abilities. You'd have to rebalance everything. Unless we have a reason to redesign all these classes, we don't need to do that. Just make it function as a %increase to autoattacks. That means it functions literally exactly the same as it does now, but with absolutely no randomness. Mathematically, you'll do the same damage with autoattacks with my system as you would expect to do with the pseudorandom system. We wouldn't need to rebalance anything.
Kuroi861 votesStacking AD means it would help abilities. You'd have to rebalance everything. Unless we have a reason to redesign all these classes, we don't need to do that. Just make it function as a %increase to autoattacks. That means it functions literally exactly the same as it does now, but with absolutely no randomness. Mathematically, you'll do the same damage with autoattacks with my system as you would expect to do with the pseudorandom system. We wouldn't need to rebalance anything.
You're still trying to fix something that ISN'T broken. In fact, your ideal would break it and would take years to balance and in the mean time either ADC would be worthless or Assassins and Bruisers would be so overpowered they would need to be nerfed into uselessness.
Sightless663 votes" In fact, your ideal would break it and would take years to balance"
I'm going to explain why you're mathematically wrong, but I do want to ask you why you think that first. I'd like to hear your reasoning.
My ideal is mathematically the exact same thing as the current system without randomness. 1 point of crit is a 1% increase in dps.
With the current system If you do 1 damage and you have 1 percent crit and you attack 100 times, you expect to do 101 damage because you'll do 1 damage 99 times and you'll crit for 2 damage once. In my system, 1% crit on 1 damage would be 1.01 damage 100 times, equaling 101 damage. It equals out to the same damage, except that it's perfectly predictable.
My system is crit without randomness. Nothing more, nothing less. The game would be the same as it is now balance wise, because nothing mathematically changed. All that will change is some of the edge cases that pseudorandom systems allow will disappear.
Kuroi861 votes" In fact, your ideal would break it and would take years to balance"
I'm going to explain why you're mathematically wrong, but I do want to ask you why you think that first. I'd like to hear your reasoning.
It's called multiplication. 100 AD with 25% crit comes out to 125. 50% comes out to 200. 200 AD with 50% crit comes out to 300 per auto.
Compare this to an actual crit. Double damage. 100 AD comes out to 200 damage per crit. 200 AD comes out to 400 damage per crit.
Simply put, in order to have anywhere near the proper damage and not leave ADC useless, you'd have to stack over 100% crit, but then where do you have room for AD?
Sightless662 votesCompare this to an actual crit. Double damage. 100 AD comes out to 200 damage per crit. 200 AD comes out to 400 damage per crit.
You're right, but you're missing one step here. Crit does not function on every autoattack. That's the key point you're missing here.
Say that I have 25% crit chance and 100 AD, both for the live servers and for my proposal. On the live servers, you expect to have 1 crit every 4 hits. This means you have 3 normal hits for 100 apiece, and 1 hit for 200. This totals an expected damage of 500 over 4 hits. So, we had 100 AD, 25% crit chance and 4 hits leading to 500 damage.
Now, let's take my equation. Same numbers: 100 AD, 25% crit chance, 4 hits. Someone with 25% crit and 100 AD would be getting a boost of 25% damage to their autoattacks, so they would be getting 125 damage per hit. Over 4 hits, this equals 500 damage. It's the same result. I'm just taking that 100 extra damage that would be put into 1 crit that happens every 1/4 attacks, and I'm spreading it out to be 25 extra damage that happens every attack.
The value of my equation is that it takes randomness out of it entirely. In the live server, the guy with 100 AD and 25% crit chance could hit 4 times and fail to crit at all, leading to only 400 damage. Or, he could crit 2 or 3 times, leading to 600 or 700 damage. The pseudorandom system reduces the likelihood of this, but mine eliminates it.
I'd like to see you write the math out. Write out an equation for someone with any crit percentage and AD, and their expected damage over any number of hits, then plug the same variables into my idea. If you write the math out for me, I can show you where you might be making a mathematical error.
Kuroi862 votesI'm starting to see what you mean, though you're still suggesting a project that would take a year or more to implement. Changing and rebalancing runes, masteries, numerous items and close to twenty different champs.
It might be a viable change, but it would still take a long time to balance, and in the mean time an entire class of champions would be in a god awful state of limbo between overpowered and gutted.
Sightless662 votesBefore we start, I have to emphasize something. The only thing that is changed is a lack of randomness. All sustained damage is exactly the same. That is the key point of this. Regardless of champion, item, rune or mastery (with just 3 exceptions), this would be the exact same dps. So, for AD carries for example, there would be no significant change.
Very little has to be rebalanced. Every crit rune would give you the exact same dps. Every crit item would give you the same DPS. Most every crit champion would have the same DPS.
Abilities that can crit would be easy to fix. Give them the same % damage increase that we would give for champion autoattacks. Statik Shiv can be rebalanced to get the crit% damage increase instead of being able to crit for higher damage, and it would have the same predicted damage over multiple procs, so that's an easy fix. The same thing can be done for crittable abilites like GP Q or Yasuo Q. It's the same dps. The only thing that could be a possible nerf is the crit-fishing gameplay, but that's a pretty small part of most GP gameplay anyway.
The only things that would need to be changed significantly are those who get effects on critting. For example, Trynd gets more Fury when he crits than when he doesn't, so he'd need a change because the actual act of critting is gone. The only item I can think of that has a problem is Lightbringer, because it gives a dot on the act of crit. The only mastery that would need a fix is the one that gives you attack speed when a crit procs. These three things are the only things I can think of that would need specific changes.
Seriously, give me any example of a champion and/or item, and I can explain why they'd have the same DPS before the change as after.
This would take one patch. Trynd, Lightbringer and the one mastery are the only things that would need major changes.
in the mean time an entire class of champions would be in a god awful state of limbo between overpowered and gutted.
I need more info here. What class are you referring to? Why do you think a change that would not affect their dps in any way would affect them so severely? Can you show me some math justifying that opinion?
If I can make a request, I'd like you to explain what you think will take a long time to balance. If you give me a specific example that isn't Trynd, Lightbringer or that one mastery, I can show you math proving that their damage won't be changed. Just give me something specific, and I can prove mathematically I'm right (I'd like to think I've done this already with the earlier math, but I'm perfectly willing to do this again with something more specific as further proof).
Kuroi861 votesWith your ideal, Statikk Shiv would need a hard cap per crit or else...
There's also the matter of crit chance runes vs crit damage runes.
Ashe' passive
Infinity Edges passive (Van Dam pillager)
Sword of the Divine (Good grief >_<)
Pantheon' certain death passive
The big one will be Infinity Edge, it's a core item for most ADC due to how strong the crit build is on them. To the point that the few ADC that can't benifit from it have been just about shoved out of bot lane. (Sivir & Quinn). Without that bonus damage from the passive, you'll see an even bigger gap form between those that can AD and those that can't. Infinity Edge is KEY to this situation.
Sightless661 votesWith your ideal, Statikk Shiv would need a hard cap per crit or else...
Wouldn't actually. Shiv currently crits for 100 damage. If I have 50% crit chance, that means that over two procs I expect to have 1 proc for 100 damage and 1 crit for 200 damage. That's 300 damage. With my way, we'd have it proc for 150 damage twice. That is also 300 damage. There is no need to change anything.
Ashe's passive can build up stacks to a double damage hit, increased by her crit damage modifier (I'll explain that when I explain how IE won't need changes either). Pantheon can get the same thing on his certain death passive, with the damage reduced by his current crit chance damage. I can do the math for that if you need, but I guarantee you it would be the exact same damage in every situation, with no exception.
Sword of the Divine is being removed next Season. If it was sticking around, it would give 3 hits of double damage increased by the crit damage modifier and lowered by the crit chance modifier.
As for anything that increases crit damage, that's easy. Make Infinity Edge make each point of crit give you 1.5% extra damage on autoattack instead of 1%. That's what it does on live. Let's do math again. We'll say I have an Infinity Edge, 50% crit chance and 100 AD (easy number for the sake of easy math), On live, if I attack twice, I would expect to hit once for 100 damage and crit for 250 damage, leading to 350 damage in total. With my proposal, we would have 100 AD, which would be increased by 50% crit hance for 50 more damage, and then the 50 damage would be multiplid by 1.5 for the 50% increased crit damage, leading to 75. This gives us a damage total of 175 for each auto. For two autos, that is 350 damage. That's the same expected damage for both my system and the live one.
In short; crit damage fits perfectly into the system with no changes at all. I really have to keep repeating this. This is already how crit works. It just does it randomly instead of on every hit. All I'm doing is removing any randomization and applying it to every hit instead of a certain percentage of hits.
We can do the same thing with any source of crit damage. It works just as well for runes.
Any other problems?
FantasySniper1 votesAll of these things have needed changes regardless. Only Pantheon's would be a simple fix.
The bonus critical damage can be easily applied as a +50% multiplier to the crit damage. (Think Rabadon's) The critical cap would have to fixed so it may not be exceeded in 100% base total before application.
(BTW, I think we broke the reply format)
FantasySniper2 votesOk, now I see the misunderstanding: This is how the wiki addresses critical chance's interaction with your DPS.
Over the course of 100 attacks, if my crit chance is 15%, that's 15 attacks doing double damage, resulting in 115% damage.
15*2+(100-15)=115 115/100 = 1.15 or 115%
With the method of simple, consistent % damage increase, the effects will be the same, but more practically efficient.
FantasySniper1 votesHe is referencing how Assassins cannot normally build crit due it being a random stat in the split-second they are attempting assassination. Having a 10% chance to do deal 50% health damage to your target is not the same as 100% chance to deal 5% health damage, even if it is theoretically equivalent over the course of 10 attacks.
I agree that crit chance should be reworked into an on hit % increase of damage, but there are foreseeable problems because the game has been balanced around it previous method of interaction.
Sightless661 votesIf you read his next post, it is pretty clear that there is a mathematical misunderstanding. He might be referencing what you think, but until he understands the core concept that 1% crit chance is the same as 1% increase in autoattack damage, I can't believe that his reasoning is formed from valid prepositions. The math has to be addressed first.
Historically, this problem hasn't kept items like Ghostblade from being popular on Assassins, it hasn't made attack speed building assassins get crit even though they should be less affected, and it hasn't made crit popular on assassins who have auto resets or sustained fighting potential.
Because crit does not work with AD scaling and assassins do most of their damage with their abilities by far, it still won't be viable on any assassins except the heavily autoattack based ones like Rengar (but he already gets the option to build it because of good attack speed and attack speed itemization, and he chooses not to. Focusing on the items that give AD, increased AD burst (Hydra), armor penetration and CDR all take priority, and focusing heavily on those stats does not make crit work better. If there were more than 6 item slots, I could agree with it being a problem. As it is, crit will likely remain an inefficient option for assassins. I have to acknowledge some possibility that I am wrong, but I very, very, very strongly doubt it.
SouL1ess2 votesTalon's best build comes from Critical Hits because that's how he maximizes his combo damage. A critical strike on an AA with IE in inventory is worth Talon's ultimate in damage.
Zed who Critically hit someone equals to doing two shadow slashes on the enemy.
Kha'zix is the least crit dependent (mostly because he is a low-burst+low rotation CD model) but one critical hit is worth one Void Spike damage.
Rengar AAs the most so he would be better off with a balance of crit and AD than pure AD - his skills have poor AD ratios anyways...mostly reliant on sticking and AA.
Critical hit acts as if you have one additional spell's worth of damage. It is almost always worth it to buy it on AD assassins - the fact that AD+Crit itemization sucks crap keeps that optimization in check due to game/build progression process.
Having critical hit become a %AA damage increase will basically make crit less desirable for every AD assassin except Talon and Rengar, with Talon having a little bit more than 50% of his combo damage resting on AA+Q, which are autoattack-based, and Rengar being mostly AA reliant.
Sightless661 votesIt is almost always worth it to buy it on AD assassins
I'm going to say, you're the only one I've heard espousing this idea. I generally see CDR + armor pen + AD as the mainstays of every assassin build except maybe Rengar. I have never seen a Zed getting any crit outside of ghostblade. I've seen 1-2 Talons with an IE in all my time playing and watching streams. I see Hydra/Ghostblade/BC builds much more often, builds focused on maxizing ability damage. I doubt the degree to which your assertion is true.
If this is true, I could maybe see a problem. Maybe. Having the more reliable damage instead of having to gamble on a crit could easily still be worth it for an assassin, particularly if they itemized crit heavily enough where the loss of potential burst would not be an issue. However, I don't accept this as being true.
SouL1ess1 votesIt is almost always worth it to buy it on AD assassins
I'm going to say, you're the only one I've heard espousing this idea. I generally see CDR + armor pen + AD as the mainstays of every assassin build except maybe Rengar. I have never seen a Zed getting any crit outside of ghostblade. I've seen 1-2 Talons with an IE in all my time playing and watching streams. I see Hydra/Ghostblade/BC builds much more often, builds focused on maxizing ability damage. I doubt the degree to which your assertion is true.
And I also noted why. It is because AD+Crit itemization has terrible game progression, and no AD assassin will build Crit outright unless they are fed to high heavens. You are obviously correct that many Talon players in SR play with the traditional builds, because Talon cannot just go GB + IE + IE + IE + LW without setting himself up for initial kills. That was my build in season 2 when all the good AD assassin items didnt exist.
If this is true, I could maybe see a problem. Maybe. Having the more reliable damage instead of having to gamble on a crit could easily still be worth it for an assassin, particularly if they itemized crit heavily enough where the loss of potential burst would not be an issue. However, I don't accept this as being true.
And I again noted that Critical Hit does NOT have to be a RANDOM thing that an AD assassin gambles on.
You can stack Crit chance. IE gives both Crit chance and AD. Like Hayaishi said, IE gives as much AD as another big AD item, so for per slot you are not missing out on raw AD. The only armor pen you need is Last Whisper. You can replace one IE with Ghostblade if you want - your Critical chance is 90%, more than enough to rest 2 crits in a row upon: usually 65%-70% is more than reliable enough.
And in fact, you are turning your AAs into monsters that have 2.5*BaseAD + 2.5*BonusAD in damage with each IE-enhanced critical hit. You have enough Crit chance for this to reliably happen. For building Critical Hits, you are GAINING DAMAGE, not losing potential burst.
I do a critical hit-based build on Talon for most of my HA games, where the game progression does not really matter. Let's just say I have played with many different builds on Talon and I have 3 season's worth of experience with him. A traditional build works, but it definitely does not have as much damage as a Critical hit build for Talon.
Sightless661 votesAnd I again noted that Critical Hit does NOT have to be a RANDOM thing that an AD assassin gambles on.
You didn't note that with me. Now that you've explained it, I get where you're coming from a bit more.
Interesting Talon info. I'll need to look into that more later.
There is one thing I want to make clear. If you're at the point where you're building enough crit where it isn't really random anymore, you're not affected by this change. If you had 100% crit, you would do exactly the same damage in exactly the same way as on live. If you have 50% crit, you'll expect to do the same damage every 2 hits, but my system would have less variance. I don't see a particularly negative effect on assassins from that.
With your Talon build, you'd have no significant differences from my system. With a Kha'zix or Zed who really doesn't build significant amounts of crit, they wouldn't really be affected at all. I don't think the effect on assassins is really a justifiable concern here. Can you explain for me what you think is the problem? I'm not understanding it.
SouL1ess1 votesMy concern is that critical hit as a system require a much deeper response than a simple % increase in AA damage.
I should really delete my first line of the first post I made. The point I am iterating is that critical hits are supposed to be powerful and random as a mechanic, albeit that is disagreeable according to Riot's game balancing. My perspective is in contrast with Riot's perspective of RNGs on game balancing and I can only point out that critical hit chance being stackable is why critical hit is the best AD modifier currently in the game.
Riot currently needs to scrap Critical hit entirely if they want a game with as less randomness as possible, but at the same time I don't think a suitable alternative to Critical hit for ADCs have been found yet; I disagree with the proposed change because it doesn't feel any different compared to just increasing AD gain.
And AD assassins should not exist in the first place, the introduction of them to LoL just breaks AD itemization where it must be balanced for a class of burst and a class of sustained damage dealers.
Sightless661 votesI can understand the RNG perspective. It's a valid view, although I don't particularly agree with it in this case. I've personally never found it particularly impactful when attached to a primary dps mechanism. I like RNG as part of an overall game system that can be played around, such as Dota's rune system where you can play around the different possibilities the RNG offers. DPS RNG really just results in instances where someone dies faster or slower than can be predicted, and I think that knowing what the capabilities of your character are is a valuable thing to have. RNG can work when it's something like Ogre Magi where you have chances to make things happen based on the RNG, but something like League's crit really doesn't offer that option.
The proposed change wouldn't be very different from an increasing AD gain, but functionally crit really isn't either. Mechanically it just serves as a % increase to autoattack damage. It's maybe a bit less flashy, but that's fine with me. I never really notice crits anyway unless it's a lucky 1% crit. That's why I favor changing them. If it's randomness that can't be played around and isn't flashy, I don't value it, and that's what I feel Lol crit is right now.
As for AD assassins: I do kind of agree, although I think segregating melee and range AD itemization could address the problem (although not very elegantly). That's a much longer discussion though.
Keyoshi1 votesBy that logic your telling me you'll know when you'll crit which is wrong. Crit is a random proc. Lets say you do 100 auto attacks and you have 1% crit, that just means each auto attack has 1% chance to crit. If your system is correct then people would be keeping track of their autos and when they know they'll crit. As of now how adc's work is who ever see's who first wins, RNG wins for Adc's. thats why they get crit so they can do more damage. When someone has a 55% crit chance that means they'll have a 55% chance to crit per auto, not ever 55 attakcs out of a hundred would crit. i bet more than 80 of your autos would crit with 55% crit. its a CHANCE to crit per auto. RNG is what ADC's are, thats why i think dodge was a melee counter to crit.
FantasySniper2 votesSimple rework by % damage increase isn't too hard.
Hayaishi2 votesNo please I still like my critical hit Talon thank you very much.
Critical hit itself needs a rework honestly. Critical hit is and should be powerful, but the fact that you can stack critical hit chance in a MOBA setting makes critical hits ridiculous.
And why would that change your build? IE is stupid strong on ad casters because they just want flat AD and IE happens to give the same AD that the others high tier AD items give but it also gives crit which is more damage.
The problem with the item affects bot lane, no adc wi ever rush something else as long as IE gives the same AD all the other items do.
Sire Hippington1 votesif an assasin(ad-CASTER) desiers crit, which is meant to be a dps stat, something is wrong with item balance...
SouL1ess1 votesMy first sentence is more for jokes, really.
But the problem with critical hit isn't inherent to IE. The problem is that critical hit CHANCE can stack, therefore causing critical hits to occur too frequently. And the suggestion to make critical hit chance increase autoattack damage by a percentage is underpowered for the most part. Riot screwed up designing critical hit since day one, now they balance the marksman class around it.
The easy solution is to nerf IE and therefore cause ADCs to get something more optimal while flat out making IE less desirable for EVERYONE. It doesn't fix the actual problem with how critical hits should be random but powerful, not something that is powerful but can also happen quite frequently (especially considering how often marksman class can attack).
Sire Hippington2 votesI have to disagree, besides crit currently beeing a bit to strong over all, the main problem is it's randomness. imo, crits should not be random, especially not if so powerfull. In a PvE game, that would be totally fine, but in a competitve PvP game, ther is no reason to bring any unneeded randomes via RNG into the game. I'm sick off trades that are lost/won by critluck. And i'm also sick of only crit-carrys and ad-assasins that go for crit... A talon with yomuus+IE steps at u, ~60%chance he crits atleast once with aa+q and kills u, and a 40% he doesn'T and u get away(unless u were all alone) LoL is and shouldn't be a gambling game...
SouL1ess1 votesBut the nature of critical hits is that it should be random given how powerful they are.
A lack of RNG for critical hit is an immediate nerf - the lack of RNG means that it cannot be as powerful as it is now. However an entire class also rest its weight for balancing on critical hits.
I know how it feels to get RNG beaten - I was the victim of 4 consecutive Ogre Magi Quadruple Fireball casts in DotA. However, I believe the whole purpose of power in critical hits is its randomness. I do not think being beaten by RNG is necessarily bad.
What I think is the problem is that:
Riot need to rework Critical Hit and introduce builds for marksman that do not rely completely on achieving critical hit chance in order to be effective.
Basically there should be less items that provide critical hit chance and more items for AD/AS options.
NeoScout2 voteswow finally someone gets it, IE is fine if it was the only crit item in the game, but when you stack it with PD or SS, oh boy....
NeoScout4 votesthe problem is IE, as long as crit items exist, all other ad items with interesting mechanics will be ignored
FantasySniper2 votesBasically. It's what's holding back anything else being rushed viably.
Ale non è male3 votesForbidden idol on ER is a terrible idea has it put you even at further disadvantage through your building path, this was yet discussed and showed in different ER threads. The thing ER needs is a lower cost (max 2800 gold) even at the cost of lose some AD and build out of the actual recipe + maybe a Faerie Charm for the ones asking for mana regen in the path. Period
Lord Dusteon9 votesForbidden idol on ER is a terrible idea has it put you even at further disadvantage through your building path, this was yet discussed and showed in different ER threads. The thing ER needs is a lower cost (max 2800 gold) even at the cost of lose some AD and build out of the actual recipe + maybe a Faerie Charm for the ones asking for mana regen in the path. Period
Have you noticed that ER gives mana regen and cooldown reduction, with no logical reason? What would be a useful build path that gives mana regen and cooldown reduction? Oh yeah, Forbidden Idol.
Otherwise, items have tradeoffs. If you go BT you'll have less damage than IE, and if you go BotRK you'll have less up front damage. Making champions have to actually choose between Mana regen and Cdr early or more damage seems pretty good.
Ale non è male1 votesIf you want ER to be built also for the marsmen AD casters, putting into the formula Forbidden Idol instead of vamp Scep or add it to Vamp Scep and keep the price as high as it is, put you always at disadvantage or at very best never put you on advantage over the course of your build path, which is literaly the death for what should be a very early game oriented item. No one builds an early game item which put him at disadvantage in early game(like when it builded out of Pickaxe) or you can't get very early and thus gaining an advantage that justify rushing it over more powerful late game choices An ADC which get mana regen ALWAYS goes at a disadvantage in early game against one which have LS or crit or further AD or AS by rushing another main AD item, as he still relies mainly AAs and last hitting(see Sivir, which should be the example of champ on which ER should fit and on which ER is not considered a good choice
If you want to justify mana regen, fine, put a faerie charm in it, this way you can build it out of B.F., keep Vamp Scep(and its LS) and still drop the price(and the stats consequently) and make ER a meaningful choice
Also, following your logic, by putting Forbidden in the recipe and aiming to drop its price(because if you don't drop the price, ER will keep not having any sense, which is a thing that the ones which are suggesting "just add forbidden idol to the actual recipe" doesn't seem to grasp), how ER would get LS then? Because you'll need to drop Vamp Scep(no LS)
Or, even worse, bring back the build upon pickaxe, which failed when ER was launched because of the reasons explained above
FantasySniper6 votesYou wouldn't need to change it much at all.
Adding to the recipe means only 150 g left to pay for combination, so there's no price adjustment necessary. It would make your buying power more easily spent, so you end up with more stats even if you can't afford the BF Sword.
Just 8 (or 10 if you're feeling generous) Mp5 would be added and it would only help its gold efficiency.
Ale non è male1 votesYou don't seem to understand so I'll repeat it
THE ACTUAL PRICE OF IS TOO HIGH FOR ITS PURPOSE. YOU GET IT TOO LATE SO IT BECOME USELESS EVEN FOR THE CHAMPS WHICH COULD NEED IT
Is this clear now? Because, the first thing for ER is to drop its price to make it viable to rush it as first item instead of BoTRK or IE. BoTRK and IE deal more damage through AA, and ER with the actual price doesn't offer you a time window big enough to get a consistent damage output advantage at any point to justify building it(because assuimg you go on par in CS, you complete it at the same time of BoTRK and little time before IE) You should complete ER way earlier than both, so that you could get an advantage in damage for lasthitting and in trades that you can carry over later, a thing that would justify taking an item that is weaker in the longer term
But...if you have to drop the price and you want to add you are forced either to:
Maybe only Cutlass would fit both gold and stat wise(because with its Llifesteal you could definitively drop Vamp Scep and thus have a build path that offersd all the stats ER gives at the proper price tag stated above), but the thing is that Cutlass offers magic damage on the active that the items that actually builds upon it translate to the final item, so to be coherent you should give this form of active magic damage to ER too, and thus you would need to at least reevaluate ER in the overall context, especially you should see if it would overlap with Muramana in design
I tell you, Cutlass + Forbidden Idol would be a good recipe, if you find a way to make the new ER with this damage added coexist with Muramana
FantasySniper2 votesIt works simply by giving an efficient build path for getting mana. At that point, the high end cost is well made up for with mana being contributed significantly earlier.
If you were to make it cost less, it would have to become less slot-efficient to compensate, and then we'll only be backtracking what progress has been made for the item. It's already pretty gold-efficent and slot-efficient as is, so this is unnecessary.
Ale non è male1 votesThis make no sense at all and you clearly didn't read or understood my point. ER problem is not that the stats aren't gold or slot efficient, is that it is an item that make sense only when rushed very early to solve early mana problems of some Ad casters, and right now with the actual price tag you finish it when most if not all of your mana problems are yet solved and you get it at the same time of BoTrk and IE that in give you more damage... so you never got an advantage while you go through its buidling path, got at disadvantage when you finish it and as consequence no one build it, because it is not convenient for anyone to rush ER as it does not give you a window where get an advantage over someone that build BoTRK or IE. And ER because of its purpose is slot-efficient only if builded as first major AD item that can be completed before the enemy major AD items, so right now is actually NOT slot-efficient
Give an efficient build path for getting mana is not the main goal of this item, the goal of this item is allow AD based casters, including some marksmen with a relatively small early mana pool, to be able to cast more spells early and thus dealing more damage early to make them capable to fight against AA marksmen/champs, and the mana restoration is only inserted for that purpose(together with the CDR). That's why the way mana restoration work here is "cast the spell, regain mana through the basic attacks, cast another spell and so on", because the mana regen is only a way to reach its true purpose, If someone just wanted to generically get AD and mana for the mid to late game, he could just go for Manamune/Muramana instead
Add to the actual recipe just doesn't solve the fact that at the actual price tag you don't get a window in which you get a damage advantage when you finish ER as first item, as you fnish it right at the time of the other major AD items, and you wouldn't get an advanatge through the building path because:
-if you buy Forbidden before BF you lose out on AD
THE PRICE DROP IS MANDATORY TO MAKE ER SLOT-EFFICIENT
I told you, the only way I could see Forbidden Idol fitting in ER recipe and keeping that kind of stats is putting it together with Cutlass to be able to drop the price, but then you would get also a form of active damage(and a slow) with it, so you should consider if you want an item with these characteristics
FantasySniper2 votesI did read it. You are trying to over-complicate the process by attempting to make the mana itself available earlier, but restricting it to be attached to only the end product.
Do not underestimate what the mana drain provides. It may only seem like a crutch to those who can't manage mana, but it makes the cost of casting practically nonexistent while also letting you cast more often. Jinx can get close to 500 damage from a single [W], and that becomes a spammable missile when combined with ER where before you would attempt to reserve it for long-range kiting or chasing. Ashe has a similar story where she can spam [W] with its super-short CD, wide range, and strong scaling. Manamune does not suit this purpose as what little damage it provides takes too long to build. ER's problem is the opposite, where it provides only damage and the mana takes too long to acquire.
If the mana regen of Forb. Idol were to be added to ER's stats, it would become 132.1% gold efficent from its previous 117.1%. (128.3% in terms of the current pre-season stats) With innate mana regen, it will also be slot-efficient and provide mana all while still building the recipe, giving it an advantage it is currently lacking.
Rushing ER is not considered viable anyways because of IE's dominance, this is something that is quite honestly holding it back and should be a path of priority should you want it to be relevant in the laning phase at all, no matter how it is balanced.
Ale non è male1 votesYou made two bad example of champs which should get Er, tbh Jinx is not a champ that fit the profile of a champ which would need to rush ER though. Her main source for last hitting and CSing it's in her Q minigun. Heck, aside of her W she doesn't have a really spammable skill. ER would just allow you to use slightly more often the fishbones, but why you should sacrifice damage in order to do it? You'd better improve the mana management on her Ashe is another champ that do not fit ER, as she doesn't really have a spammable skill at the start of the game(the CD on W at first levels is really high, it's 16/13/10/7/4) and she relies on AA damage, which means she must go for AD given her very good natural AS scaling. ER would just allow her to keep her Q toggle activated more often, but if that is your goal you'd rather build Muramana(that in the end gives also her bonus damage with its own active toggle activated that she desperattly needs), and then keep going with a complete blue/mana build or eventually recover wayyy later ER to keep recovering mana on Muramana enhanced attacks, but this is kinda the only possible theorical exception for getting ER that late in the game, and isn't even that good at the end cause at that point you could better go for an offtank build with FH, Iceborn and Mercurial making Ashe a marksmen offtank supportive champ with a permaslow and a stun that doesn't die istantly if jumped upon like she would with Muramana + ER in a damage focused build
Anyway, regarding the talk about gold efficiency and slot efficiency, the problem is that those things aren't related. Atma was one of the best gold efficiency items in the game last season but wasn't slot-efficient since you got to get a big amount of health to make it viable, a thing that really a minority of champs actually builds because of the anti-health item(see BotrK) becoming so popular and the other health related items being generally nerfed before ER slot efficiency would be in rushing it as viable alternative solutions for champs which are AD casters with multiple spammable skills and that does not scale particularly well with AP(aka Trinity Force rush) including some makrsmen(cause the item is not make only for marksmen, for example the guy that would love it the most is Jayce with all the abilities he can spam) like Sivir, Urgot, or even an Ezrael that wants to have a better early game presence than going with TF or stretching to an extreme the concept of spammable skills some other champ
The "advantage" that ER is currently lacking to justify his rush is **that it doesn't give you a power advantage at ANY point in the game against BoTRK, IE and TF(the three main item which are rushed by marksmen) **, not the lack of mana restoration and CDR at the expense of combat stats like it would be if you put in recipe and just delay buying AD(BF) or lifesteal(Vamp Scep). Being able to complete ER faster than the other major AD item is the only possible key to make ER slot efficient, as get it way sooner than BoTRK or IE or TF could allow you to have better CSing and better damage in trades through the possibility of cast more spell in that window of time between your ER completion and their main damage item completion and thus building a gold advantage that you can carry over to a later part of the game by completing your 2nd and hopefully third item faster than them and so justifying what is the lesser power of the item taken singly against IE, BoTRK and TF. That's why the ER changes should however have as goal the drop in price without making it lose or delay building combat stats during the build path(because, if you fell behind as stats during build process like it was with the Pickaxe recipe, it still make no sense to get an item that get you a disadvantage at first that thus nuillify the advantage you can eventually get later in the time window mentioned above, and thus make the item useless anyway like it is) more than aiming to keep its final stats as they actually are
FantasySniper1 votesUmm... If we are discussing rushing ER for these examples, there are just casters who want to cast regardless. I simply offered these two as champions who scale well with ER. (BTW, Ashe doesn't have inherently high AS scaling, I don't know where you got that from, relative to other marksman, she's on the lower end of AS scalers)
ER slot efficiency would be in rushing it as viable alternative solutions for champs which are AD casters with multiple spammable skills and that does not scale particularly well with AP(aka Trinity Force rush) including some makrsmen(cause the item is not make only for marksmen, for example the guy that would love it the most is Jayce with all the abilities he can spam) like Sivir, Urgot, or even an Ezrael that wants to have a better early game presence than going with TF or stretching to an extreme the concept of spammable skills some other champ That's why the ER changes should however have as goal the drop in price without making it lose or delay building combat stats during the build path(because, if you fell behind as stats during build process like it was with the Pickaxe recipe, it still make no sense to get an item that get you a disadvantage at first that thus nuillify the advantage you can eventually get later in the time window mentioned above, and thus make the item useless anyway like it is) more than aiming to keep its final stats as they actually are
Again, you're forcing the mana return to be tacked to the end product as a power spike. Adding mana return anywhere in the recipe fills the niche it seeks to fill much earlier, no matter the method, making its power gain less steep and only somewhat higher. Modifying the efficiency of its power apex is not the same thing, especially as you're planning on it being acquired sooner, more than likely also resulting in stat changes.
Ale non è male1 votesUmm... If we are discussing rushing ER for these examples, there are just casters who want to cast regardless. I simply offered these two as champions who scale well with ER. (BTW, Ashe doesn't have inherently high AS scaling, I don't know where you got that from, relative to other marksman, she's on the lower end of AS scalers)
WHAT? Ashe has the best AS scaling among marksmen together with Vayne and Cait(especially after Trist AS scaling was nerfed in the latest patch) She has the highest AS at lvl 18 together with Vayne I think you don't really know what you are talking about. The numbers are there to be checked [(http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_champions%27_attack_speed)]
And no, she has effectively only 1 spell to spam and that is on really high CDs at first levels(when you'll need the item the most). The toggle isn't really an ability to spam nor does it enhance damage, is a toggle that gives you some utility. Also Ashe is one of the few marksmen that would still have a convenience in rushing Muramana before ER as it would allow her to keep the toggle activated AND to enhance damage with Muramana For Jinx is the same because only 1 skill is spammable, and because the minigun is way superior for farming purposes than fishbones because starting with 2-3 points on the Q it gives you one of the best AS steroid in the game and the fishbones damage at early levels is not good and the range you gain is not that much
Again, you're forcing the mana return to be tacked to the end product as a power spike. Adding mana return anywhere in the recipe fills the niche it seeks to fill much earlier, no matter the method, making its power gain less steep and only somewhat higher. Modifying the efficiency of its power apex is not the same thing, especially as you're planning on it being acquired sooner, more than likely also resulting in stat changes.
Again, you are missing the point. The point is not that mana regen in the recipe wouldn't be good(of course it would), it's that for an early game oriented item is crucial to drop the price to be able to cpomplete it before the enemies and to not fall the enemies in power behind during its building process Idol added to the actual formula do not met both the purpose(price do not drop and if you get mana regen before one of BF or Vamp Scep you fell behind). Swap Forbidden for Vamp Scep in the actual formula has the same result as above mentioned(lose on LS aka lose on power through the building path and do not drop the price if you want to keep the 80 AD) Swap BF for Pickaxe and add Forbidden Idol to vamp Scep to drop the price but put you really behind through build process
The only formulas I see which can provide mana regen through ER building path would be add a Faerie Charm to the actual formula(180 gold thrown here doesn't really make you miss one of the other two tiems), or throw both BF and Vamp Scep for Cutlass, which means you have to study which form of active damage you can add to ER without hurting Muramana
Sailor Mint2 votesForbidden Idol is getting changed to 50% of base mana regen, effectively making it worse for ADCs.
FantasySniper1 votesActually, 
all have relatively high base mana regen, and these are the champions most likely to desire building it. 
also has the highest base mana regen stat at Lv 18.
Not to say these values will stay the same, since they may as well be planning on large-scale regen changes.
Sightless662 votesKeep in mind that per-level scaling stats will start at 62% of what they currently are at level 1 and then increase to 138% at level 18, meaning that you get the same per-level stats by level 18 but you get fewer stats for early levels and more stats for later levels. This means %regen is weaker early in the game because your per level gains are weaker.