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Sona/Zyra are still trash tier since preseason 4

VDc0zCqe0w··14 votes·2,202 views

I think they still need alot of buffs, they have been trash since ages.

They are bad regardless of the metagame, don't sell me the thing that this meta "does not fit them", Sona/Zyra are bad and that's it, we went through 10 different metas (even opposite ones) from S4 start to now and they have been irrelevant in every single one of them.

We basically had every single meta we could possibly have, and they have been shit in every one, how are they not trash tier again? Because of soloQ winrates?

I think the itemization is insanely bad for them also: spellthief is bad, sightstone gives useless stats to them, mobi boots are decent but they are better on pick supports.

You could argue that Zyra is not a support, whatever but Sona definitely is.

P.S. i'd like to point out that Zyra definitely had periods in wich she had <50% winrate, so that argument doesn't even work, her winrate and Sona's are super volatile.

70 Comments

Livin like Riven6 votes

I'll agree on Sona being weak, basically she got dumpstered to the point where her poke - her supposed identity - is worse than any other support's atm, but Zyra is godlike in mid lane. And any buff she might get as a support will inevitably impact her mid lane so there's a reason why they don't want her buffed.

Emmy Cha0s4 votes

While you're fairly correct in what you've said, I want to fix one minor thing.

Spellthief itself is not a useless item. Its upgraded versions, Frostfang in particular are what's truly bad.

Does this mean Spellthief is bad because you can't upgrade it? Sure, that's one thought process, but then again it's not unheard of for items to have a good first stage and poor upgrade options.

item 3155

Borbland4 votes

Zyra is pretty good as midlaner, but shhhhhhhh.....

Agidyne3 votes

I'm starting to think the GB board has crush for Sona buffs or some shit.

VDc0zCqe0w8 votes

{quoted}

I'm starting to think the GB board has crush for Sona buffs or some shit.

i'd like to be able to play something that is not Janna or a tank (or Morgana but she's boring)

Agidyne3 votes

For supports, you have Nami if you want to play a Sustain support, which is arguably very good.

And unlike Soraka, Sona, Janna, Morgana, she isn't completely fucking boring with undodgeable poke and heal spam.

I for instance, play Braum. Braum is cool.

Or play something that isn't a support?

VDc0zCqe0w7 votes

{quoted}

For supports, you have Nami if you want to play a Sustain support, which is arguably very good.

And unlike Soraka, Sona, Janna, Morgana, she isn't completely fucking boring with undodgeable poke and heal spam.

I for instance, play Braum. Braum is cool.

Or play something that isn't a support?

Braum is unspeakable cancer like any tank support

Agidyne2 votes

Tank supports make the lane active.

Braum is no exception.

If every support was like Leona and Braum, bot lanes would be a lot more fun with hard engages all the time.

Rather than poke, heal, poke, heal, poke, heal, poke, heal.

Or Poke, shield, poke, shield in case of Janna.

Nik Nikerson5 votes

And if every support was the same, what would be the motivation to play anything but a comp that punishes hard engages?

VDc0zCqe0w8 votes

{quoted}

Tank supports make the lane active.

Braum is no exception.

If every support was like Leona and Braum, bot lanes would be a lot more fun with hard engages all the time.

Rather than poke, heal, poke, heal, poke, heal, poke, heal.

Or Poke, shield, poke, shield in case of Janna.

you have no clue

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZHhS_tISrU

this is how a Zyra vs Sona lane works: so passive

Emmy Cha0s3 votes

Dammit, seeing season 3 footage has just made more sad and angry about both 4.13 AND 3.14. Both of these patches were serious nerfs to Sona, 4.13 of course killing her off completely. I guess you could call it the decline and fall of Sona: 3.14 being the decline and 4.13 being the fall.

ComannderShepard4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Puffball idk,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EsFPaw8s,comment-id=000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-10-02T13:38:58.091+0000)

you have no clue

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZHhS_tISrU

this is how a Zyra vs Sona lane works: so passive

^ This. When people say zyra and sona are passive supports I cringe.

Soraka is a passive support. Not the supports who help the carry melt faces.

Pika3103 votes

Fearless called Sona a passive support. On countless occasions. Yet more proof that he had no business making changes to her. He had never even played Sona before he took that job AND he's a self-proclaimed jungle main. Which seriously makes me question his credentials even further considering what he did in preseason 5...

A Miss Fortune2 votes

Zyra isn't a Support to be fair. She is and was designed to be a Mid laner, but they gutted everything on her kit (range, damage, mana, CC, base stats, etc) and she just became a watered down Heimerdinger/Azir.

Death by Glamour3 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EsFPaw8s,comment-id=00000000000000000000000100020001,timestamp=2015-10-03T11:29:15.858+0000)

Zyra isn't a Support to be fair. She is and was designed to be a Mid laner, but they gutted everything on her kit (range, damage, mana, CC, base stats, etc) and she just became a watered down Heimerdinger/Azir.

Blitz and leona were originally toplane tanks

Morgana and annie were and still are midlaners.

Zyra supp can still do as much damage as a midlaner with a fraction of the gold and ap

5050BS1 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EsFPaw8s,comment-id=00000000000000000000000100020001,timestamp=2015-10-03T11:29:15.858+0000)

Zyra isn't a Support to be fair. She is and was designed to be a Mid laner, but they gutted everything on her kit (range, damage, mana, CC, base stats, etc) and she just became a watered down Heimerdinger/Azir.

I play Zyra mid 75% of the time. If they would fix the bugs in her Plant AI and her Passive she would be even with other good mid laners.

A Miss Fortune1 votes

I feel like if Zyra didn't have a trashy plant AI and she had a real passive she would be a viable Mid laner again, but there's also a lot of other ways to look at her. Like mana costs, base stats, reliability. I feel like sadly Riot will miss a great oppertunity to give Zyra an actual passive and just give her more damage, which she does NOT need.

A Miss Fortune1 votes

Janna has poke?

darapier171 votes

q

manbearswine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Puffball idk,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EsFPaw8s,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-02T12:35:38.407+0000)

Braum is unspeakable cancer like any tank support

How is this upvoted

What the fuck

Emmy Cha0s5 votes

So we're forced to play champions other than the ones we like? Because Riot said so?

Is this what League has become, a dictatorship? We're no longer allowed to make decisions for ourselves and must follow a path that someone else decided for us?

Agidyne2 votes

who the fuck is forcing you not to play something?

you like playing sona?

then play sona

Emmy Cha0s4 votes

Fearless and Jag are forcing us to not play Sona. Or did you not read patch 4.13 when they removed her from the game?

Agidyne3 votes

weird

I'm quite sure I can still pick her in Champion Select.

Emmy Cha0s5 votes

...and then you run the risk of being reported for assisting the enemy team with the explanation of "Played Sona." Exactly the same as picking Eve long ago.

Agidyne1 votes

but you can still play her, which proves me right.

Emmy Cha0s5 votes

Playing her once and then getting banned for locking her in doesn't mean I "can still play her." If you need to continue ignoring this to feed your own narcissism, go right ahead. As far as common sense is concerned, Sona doesn't exist anymore.

Agidyne1 votes

???

As far as common sense, Sona exists.

That's why you can pick her up and play her.

You are the one who doesn't seem to aknowledge her, not me.

Emmy Cha0s4 votes

I never said you don't acknowledge her. If you bothered to ask instead of making blind accusations, I would've told you Riot are the ones who refuse to acknowledge Sona.

Agidyne1 votes

You are the one who is failing to acknowledge her as a champion.

Not me.

Not Riot.

You.

Stasticaly speaking, Sona is in a fine place.

Her winrate is basically the same across all regions, which is around 51% and this value only goes up the further up in the ladder you go.

She also isn't exactly the most unpopular, there are a lot of people who still play her.

So, why should Riot even touch her in any way?

You are telling me she sucks, but statistics say otherwise.

Emmy Cha0s4 votes

Statistically speaking:

  • she has the lowest base damage on a spell amongst all supports
  • she has the 2nd lowest damage potential of the entire support class
  • she has the weakest and most expensive heal in the game
  • she has the weakest and shortest-duration shield of supports
  • she's the only support without CC harder than a slow pre-6
  • she has the 3rd lowest base mana of mage supports
  • she has the 1st, 2nd and 3rd shortest-range ranged abilites amongst the entire suport class, all of which being a full 200 units shorter than the 4th shortest
  • she has the lowest tier of movement speed
  • she has the 5th lowest base HP in the game and the 2nd-lowest amongst supports
  • she has the 10th lowest base AD of champs and 1st lowest AD of supports, discluding certain on-hit effects like Lulu
  • she has one of the weakest CC ults amongst supports
Korweeabooo2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Ryu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EsFPaw8s,comment-id=00000000000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000003,timestamp=2015-10-03T17:04:19.680+0000)

http://champion.gg/champion/sona

**Win Rate 51.43% 11 / 23 **

Stop talking out of your ass like you know what is best for Sona please.

Heal 8853.36 5 / 23 0

She heals the 5ht best for supports, what are you smoking?

She has the 8th highest damage for supports, seriously do you even play Sona?

the way that site calculates numbers is flawed and shes going to be higher up the list because she has higher pick rate than some other supports

also just because sona tends to do more damage overall in X game does NOT mean that she actually does more damage than the other champions

its going to list her higher than the blitz/nami/soraka that actually bursts harder just because they did less damage in the game overall because more people play them differently/don't build damage

no one builds blitz as ap but he can easily 100-0 burst shit into oblivion if he actually builds damage if you compare the base damages and scalings of blitz kit vs sona its a joke

in terms of actual math she loses everything especially in healing every champion with a heal can heal for more than sona (in some cases 2-3x as much)

infact buying a relic shield gives team sustain on par with sona so yeah if sona "heals" then so does support teemo

support teemo = sona healing tier

Catastrop1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Puffball idk,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EsFPaw8s,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-10-02T12:05:04.136+0000)

i'd like to be able to play something that is not Janna or a tank (or Morgana but she's boring)

Lulu Try the homegirl.

Emmy Cha0s4 votes

What if we don't want to? What if we're here because we want to play Sona? Why is Riot allowed to say we can't and must pick from **their **list of approved champs instead? That's communism.

Don't get me wrong, I like playing Lulu. I like playing Nami, but I liked playing Sona too and then Riot told me I wasn't allowed to anymore. How is that fair?

Catastrop1 votes

I was just giving a suggestion, no need to get all Therapist on me D: Either way though, I do get your point. I would love to go into a game and play Sona but I've come to see that either I just don't have what it takes to make her work or it's just the match ups are always so one-sided.

Emmy Cha0s4 votes

No kidding. Even Janna, which is her strongest matchup, is now an unfavorable one after 4.13. She quite literally has zero winning lanes now.

OrcDuckyPaladin1 votes

That's weird. I thought Sona was one of the best supports in the game tbh...

Emmy Cha0s4 votes

No, she's factually the weakest support and arguably the weakest champion altogether. I know for a fact that players have been getting reported just for picking her. At a rate that's been increasing over time and started the moment 4.13 went Live.

darapier171 votes

it is not communism, it is autocracy or a dictatorship. Communism is a bout everyone sharing everything, whereas stalinism or dictatorships are about everybody doing what the leader wants

OrcDuckyPaladin3 votes

Lulu The Bae Sorceress^^

Pyro2 votes

Sightstone is not useless on Sona. It pushes her health above that of a caster minion. The problem with her is that Riot pushed her power into AP scalings, balancing her around the abusive cases of items like Lichbane - and her supportive abilities need AP to stay relevant. Which is stupid if you want to build Mikael's on her.

One of the two things needs to happen - either items like Ardent Censer and Zeke's Harbinger get their AP buffed (with Zeke's possibly building out of Aether Wisp?), or Sona needs a buff to her base values on abilities.

I'd also take a good look at her E, which is currently hindering her post-level 13 scaling.

Emmy Cha0s5 votes

Number buffs won't fix Sona, this kit is shittier and more toxic than her original. She can only be fixed by one of three ways:

  1. Complete revert
  2. Partial revert
  3. Re-rework
LadyRenly2 votes

Pre season 4? I remember using Sona...uh...sometime this year? and she was still ok. I used her top/mid lane and used her as a riven counter with a good degree of success. Now, idk, her damage feels non existent, has no reason to level E, her heals suck, her only saving grace is her ult

Pika3101 votes

Considering she was nerfed August of last year, you definitely weren't using her this year. Your analysis of her current state is accurate, tho.

darapier171 votes

her ult does not get above 500 base damage and the stun does not get above 1 second (i think)

Uiraya2 votes

Zyra might not be in the best state right now but she is nowhere near the level of crushfucked uselessness that is Sona.

I've gotten them both to 5 recently and Zyra was mostly fun (hard engage sucks though) but Sona was agonizing in 19 out of 20 games (and the other one was when the enemy was bad enough to simply walk one by one into your deathball).

Only Play Darius1 votes

I have heard people say that Sona is a champion that Riot wishes they had never made and therefore intentionally keeps her trash tier, something about her being entirely auras which are a nightmare to balance and apparently her kit reads like a support players wet dream while also being incredibly easy to play.

That being said I have never had any problems with Sona, would love to see her get some love.

Emmy Cha0s4 votes

Riot is literally the only company that has ever said auras are toxic or difficult to balance. The fact that they are the only ones who claim this says several things about them: they are intentionally discriminating against Sona based solely on their own prejudice and; Riot's "balance" team employees are under-qualified for the job they've been hired to perform.

ComannderShepard1 votes

I completely disagree with Sona not being good. I've played her for a long time and I think she's in a balanced spot.

Zyra needs work though. Riot needs to establish whether they want her to be a mage or a support; then move on from there.

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