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@Gameplay team, mentioning Karma in the 6.9 patch note/video doesn't change anything

Evenstar··5 votes·1,002 views

With Athene's being changed to reflected a balance of offense/defense, being able to provide healing to your teamates, Hextech GLP offering an extra edge in kiting, or that half of the items now offer 10, 20% cdr and allow the fantasy of full CDR to happen, it still doesn't changes anything for Karma. Half of the Karma fan base still want her to be worked on following on whatever Ryze/Yorick rework, Updates, New Champions plans you have installed for the rest of the year.

If your hopes is making Karma stronger/fotm through items, then unfortunately, it doesn't work on knowledgeable Karma mains. For the rest of the fanbase, whose probably hyped about the changes and going about trying to "diversify" Karma even more by making AP Jungle Karma, Tank Karma even more possible, that's because they don't understand the serious problem that Karma is in. You can take off meta roles and call it diversity, take a group of buffs/tweaks and call it update, strip off what's unique of a champion's kit and call it game health/functionality, make odd, badly justified choices and call it Riot's gaming philosophy 101, you're not fooling the older players around.

Now that you've mentioned three factors to a champion's change, which are - Game Health, Distinction, Cohesiveness. Then, let's talk Riot language about why Karma doesn't fit in all 3.

**Game health ** Throwing down a 435+80%AP aoe Q instantly with 350+60%AP in the aftermath isn't fun. Having a shield with 60% move speed every 6-8 seconds isn't fun for your melees either. Snaring your opponents for 3.25 seconds, on top of 40% + (1% per 100AP) health healed isn't fair for those engaged in dueling either. Oh, and not forgetting 440 + 100%AP on a primary shield target and 220 + 50%AP on the rest of the team isn't exactly healthy by Riot's standards ain't it? Outside of that, none of these abilities rewards Karma properly for landing/using them, leaving players feeling half satisfied every time during the application of said abilities. Binary is another game health problem, in Karma's cases, its you either land them or you be useless for 24-40 seconds. See, simple. If it's game health we're talking about, Karma's values and ratios are far from acceptable in Riot's philosophy 101.

**Distinction ** Accentuating Karma is about putting her Mantra out there. Since we're now going to change/update every champion based on one single ability, then Mantra is the distinction in Karma's case. Does Mantra actually feel distinctive though? Not really, Q/RQ - AoE damage/More AoE Damage, W - Snare/More Snare time + single target heal, E/RE - Shield Haste/Ancient Coin wannabe, R - Click and use! So most of the time, I'm just using Mantra for the sake of it. How does Mantra seem distinctive in Karma's case? Well, you have to use it to put out stronger spells. Does Mantra make your spells feel distinctive though, no, not at all. Unlike Old Karma, each abilities had very clear distinction - when mantra-ed, they had the opposing effects of what the original ability carried - Q/RQ - AoE damage/Aoe Heal, W/RW - Sustained Haste/Slow - Damage!, E/RE - Shield/Shieldbomb! That's distinction. In her current kit, everything is the same as it is, Q becomes a ball of nuke, W is still a DoT tether with longer soft cc (heal not even such a iconic part of it), E is just bigger shield, what distinction is Mantra bringing? You went from creating Distinction to making almost everything in her kit bigger. That's not distinction, that's just plain high balling abilities with no unique effects.

Cohesiveness Karma was envisioned to be a spiritual figure and the leader of Ionia in her rework. Heck, I just realized yesterday that Karma was reimagined as Duchess of Ionia, even though she was only a figurehead for an Ionian resistance. I recalled Runaan and co wanting to make Karma badass by envisioning her more appropriately as a leader, but I had no idea they wanted her to be the leader. I understood that they wanted Karma to embody the spirit of Ionia, not make her Ionia itself. Regardless, Karma fells nothing like a Spiritual Leader, she doesn't feel powerful, instead she feels more reliant than her old self. I don't find myself playing a powerful spiritual leader in game, I find myself playing an overly versatile champion that loses her niche and identity with each gradual changes. I see nothing spiritual about her, I see very little of Twin Dragons, Mantle of Decorum or modesty, the last two which are iconic to Ionia's culture. Instead, I see a sexualized champion disguised under the reasoning of "Her aesthetics weren't clear, so we changed it and gave her this long garb that shows off her legs". Her passive Gathering Fire, speaks nothing about being spiritual, instead it feels like a champion charging something up. Why does a Spiritual Leader need to charge something, anything in fact? Her auto attacks feel so minor, no twin dragon there either. And lastly, her VO feels anything but a leader, a leader should be firm in her tone, but all I hear is forced conflict.

Okay, sorry. That's cohesiveness from an artistic/visual pov. What about Cohesiveness in gameplay? Do we see Karma fulfilling the Battle Mage/Enchanter that Riot set? Barely. If Karthus and Vladimir are prime example of Battle Mage, then Karma is not even living up to the role. Both Karthus and Vladimir excel at surviving if they dragged to low health, they have opportunities to create very very clutch plays/moments and Karma is far from that. Her clutch plays are basically repeated Q-castings, W and E, creating distance and praying mantra comes off cooldown even though Battle Mages are supposed to box it out, because hey, its a battle right? Enchantress? Barely feels like it , apart from E/RE, I don't feel myself enchanting people. The Old Karma felt more like an enchantress, I could heal/shield/haste someone. And also going to Gathering Fire in a gameplay, why do I need to buy back my pseudo-ultimate? Outside of Balance issue, the passive feels awful. A leader shouldn't exhaust herself so quickly, she's expected to be stronghold in the team, because she is the leader after all! What leader leads if they're only good for one use :S?

See Riot? You want players to express concerns in a Riot's language? I've done it in your words, Game Health, Cohesiveness, Distinction, or anything else in between. In fact, if I've missed any, it's only because your team of staffs rolling out the updates are not consistent with their words. Some call Game Health as Identity, Distinction/Cohesiveness as Thematic. So there.

Newer players may be fooled by your "updates" and changes. Like I said, give a few champions new visuals/models/particles/splash/buff and nerf numbers and call it a "big update", lack of dedication as lack of manpower. The players who are hyped about the MYMU only see the good stuffs and ignore the bad. Not to say that I'm not thrilled about MYMU, but half of the changes in MYMU could be averted if you played your cards well. Things like shifting focus of Mana regen to Mana for AP Mids, Mana regens for Supports could have been less of an issue for you. It all goes back to your concept of diversity, where instead of encouraging diversity through build paths and items, you encouraged diversity through champions, creating problems like Tank Ekko, Jungler/Tank Karma, Support Nautilus, Top Taric, Jungler Quinn/Graves etc.

TL;DR, the changes you've made in 6.9 won't change the way we think about Karma. Even after the patch rolls, the players who have been calling Riot to remember Karma will still do so. You're not fooling a portion of us. In time, one of you from the update team will say Karma is now functional and healthy, just like how it was said so months ago, it doesn't change a thing. There are still people who want her to be fixed, and an update is far from achieving the mark of game health, distinction and cohesiveness.

17 Comments

IxtaliKing4 votes

What we need is someone else working on Karma, rickless isn't good for her at all. He's too willing to destroy what people like about a character and just do his own little thing. Karma herself was in a much better place before he touched her, people think she's a good mid now but she had much greater potential before.

Quepha2 votes

{quoted}

Throwing down a 435+80%AP aoe Q instantly with 350+60%AP in the aftermath isn't fun. Having a shield with 60% move speed every 6-8 seconds isn't fun for your melees either.

That stuff is incredibly fun, what are you on about?

Evenstar2 votes

Like I said, in Riot's words. Game health reasons, throwing down an aoe with 435+80%AP isn't far to your opponents :D.

There are a few ways you can go about it, a) Supercharged numbers - unfair/not in line with Riot's philosophy of creating fun plays for both the champion/opponents, b) Lacks meaningful tradeoff/reward - Doesn't feel fair that Karma presses R and gets a nuke at 485 + 80%AP for the opponent, and doesn't feel rewarding for Karma if she lands it (If I land it, why are people able to walk out of my secondary Q?). Overall, unfair for the opponents who receives the nuke, but also very unfair for when it is blocked/dodged, hence no meaningful tradeoff/reward.

If you're asking me what weed I'm asking, I'll tell you its a weed you can't find so easily.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Like I said, in Riot's words. Game health reasons, throwing down an aoe with 435+80%AP isn't far to your opponents :D.

There are a few ways you can go about it, a) Supercharged numbers - unfair/not in line with Riot's philosophy of creating fun plays for both the champion/opponents, b) Lacks meaningful tradeoff/reward - Doesn't feel fair that Karma presses R and gets a nuke at 485 + 80%AP for the opponent, and doesn't feel rewarding for Karma if she lands it (If I land it, why are people able to walk out of my secondary Q?). Overall, unfair for the opponents who receives the nuke, but also very unfair for when it is blocked/dodged, hence no meaningful tradeoff/reward.

Those numbers aren't supercharged given that it costs her most important cooldown, it requires landing a skillshot that can be body-blocked and blocked by minions so there's counterplay, the secondary explosion forces movement so it makes for a powerful zoning ability (and more counterplay).

Taliyah has a very similar ability where she makes a mine field that deals damage initially and then pops for more damage several seconds later, giving the enemy more than enough time to walk out of it (unless they eat some other form of cc) so if riot thinks RQ is a mistake they apparently haven't learned from it yet.

Evenstar3 votes

You're repeating what I've said, landing a skillshot that can be body blocked/blocked by minions is unfair. It's unfair for Karma because it costs her the entire damage, and 24-40 seconds worth of cooldown. It's also unfair for the opponent who are hit by the nuke, because its an instant depletion of 435+80%AP damage. There's nothing fair about landing RQ or missing RQ. This is game health. How so? There is no actual balance between landing or missing your skillshots. A Karma who misses her RQ should have other opportunities to do meaningful damage to back it up, a champion who accidentally gets their health chunked down by 485+80%AP shouldn't feel threatened and be encouraged to fight her back. Either way you look at it, a missed RQ is just as frustrating as a RQ chunking your health down.

Taliyah has the added advantage of creating large zone, even larger than Karma's RQ. It also punishes mobility, so the delay in damage in perfectly understandable. In Karma's case, nothing at all. Just a slow. Even an immobile mage with tier 2 boots can walk out of it with quick responses.

Quepha3 votes

{quoted}

You're repeating what I've said, landing a skillshot that can be body blocked/blocked by minions is unfair. It's unfair for Karma because it costs her the entire damage, and 24-40 seconds worth of cooldown. It's also unfair for the opponent who are hit by the nuke, because its an instant depletion of 435+80%AP damage. There's nothing fair about landing RQ or missing RQ. This is game health. How so? There is no actual balance between landing or missing your skillshots. A Karma who misses her RQ should have other opportunities to do meaningful damage to back it up, a champion who accidentally gets their health chunked down by 485+80%AP shouldn't feel threatened and be encouraged to fight her back. Either way you look at it, a missed RQ is just as frustrating as a RQ chunking your health down.

Taliyah has the added advantage of creating large zone, even larger than Karma's RQ. It also punishes mobility, so the delay in damage in perfectly understandable. In Karma's case, nothing at all. Just a slow. Even an immobile mage with tier 2 boots can walk out of it with quick responses.

Not doing damage when you miss a skillshot is unfair? Dealing damage when you land a skillshot is unfair? I have to say I will never agree with your stance.

Evenstar2 votes

Perhaps I'm shortening too much of my explanation that you don't understand. There's two parts to this.

1 - With how Karma's entire damage is loaded on to RQ, missing the skill with her almost feels unfair. Because that's where all of her damage is locked. W is unreliable because people can break the tether and 290+90%AP over 2 seconds means a portion of that damage can be prevented by disengaging the tether or killing Karma. In this sense, Karma has nothing reliable to fall back to, except for a regular Q which is already horrible given the low explosion radius. On the other hand, it never feels rewarding to land her RQ, the uniqueness of RQ has always been the secondary explosion, which is very much avoided, walked out. If RQ is primarily used as a zoning tool, then perhaps it is undeserving of 350+60%AP. First of all, a zoning tool shouldn't be worthy of that much damage because it is only meant for zoning, secondly, it is also a detriment to Karma, because that's where 80% of her damage is. That 350+60%AP could have been easily gone to her other abilities, to make her way with damage much more reliable. This is speaking from Karma's case.

2 - If you are an enemy and you get hit by Karma's RQ, the first thought would be, that ability is far too strong. I receive 435+80%AP being hit and I have 40% of my health chunked in one go. On the other hand, if I successfully block her RQ and proceed to destroy her, I don't feel rewarded. There's nothing satisfying about killing Karma, because the only effort you need is to block her RQ. If I am damaged, do I have the necessary health pool to take her down etc. This is speaking from an opponent's pov.

Which brings me to what I mentioned. However you look at it, there's no balanced moments of using RQ. You either feel really good landing it, only to find that the reward isn't up to par, or you feel shitty for missing it, and have nothing else to fall back on. As I've said again, this is not the case with other champions who can rely on their basic abilities even if they've missed their ultimate. With Karma, the only thing you can rely on is your Ultimate, not your basic abilities.

Quepha2 votes

{quoted}

Perhaps I'm shortening too much of my explanation that you don't understand. There's two parts to this.

1 - With how Karma's entire damage is loaded on to RQ, missing the skill with her almost feels unfair.

Not really, because you missed. When you miss you should feel bad.

2 - If you are an enemy and you get hit by Karma's RQ, the first thought would be, that ability is far too strong.

No, it should be "I should have tried harder to dodge that" because when you get hit by a skillshot it's normal for you to take a lot of damage.

Which brings me to what I mentioned. However you look at it, there's no balanced moments of using RQ. You either feel really good landing it, only to find that the reward isn't up to par

The reward always feels up to par. The damage is good, I force the enemy to move or take more damage, and the cooldown is pretty short as far as R buttons go so in a little while I'll be able to do it again (unless I feel an RE or RW is more appropriate for the situation).

You keep saying that the enemy feels bad about the damage and so does Karma, that's impossible. If the enemy feels bad about the damage then Karma has to feel good because she dealt the damage and her goal is to make the enemy feel bad.

or you feel shitty for missing it, and have nothing else to fall back on.

Except for your W which forces the enemy to disengage or your E which just lets you run away scott-free. Or you can just wait until your Q is up again because it's one of the lowest cooldown poke spells in the game.

As I've said again, this is not the case with other champions who can rely on their basic abilities even if they've missed their ultimate.

Blitzcrank and Morgana are far more helpless when missing their Q's than Karma and have much longer cooldown on their Q's. Morgana's ultimate is considered very iconic and powerful but also very often merely forces the enemy to disengage instead of actually landing that stun, because forcing a disengage is still very strong.

Evenstar1 votes

Not really, because you missed. When you miss you should feel bad.

It seems that you lack the general understanding of the explanation. It's fine to miss a skillshot and feel bad, but awful to miss a skillshot and feel unfair. Feeling bad and unfair are two different things, I can be upset that I miss my skillshot, like how I miss an Ahri's Q or Lux's Q, and still have W/E respectively to back me up. Yes, in that sense, I agree with you that learning to land your skillshots is vital. BUT, you forget that RQ is Karma's only damage source, which brings us back to the very first point, supercharged numbers. Again, it goes back how it never feels fair for Karma and her opponents. It feels unfair because if Karma misses it, that's 90% of her major damage gone for 24 seconds. And for her opponents, it feels awful to get be hit by a strong nuke.

No, it should be "I should have tried harder to dodge that" because when you get hit by a skillshot it's normal for you to take a lot of damage.

Everyone can learn to dodge skillshots, and we still get hit by one from time to time. Your argument is that Karma's RQ is balanced because players can learn to dodge the skill, and its healthy for her to 785+150%AP fit in to one ability. And cooldown is what makes her manageable. Yet you don't seem to understand that beyond cooldowns and landing/dodging skillshots, its about how Karma's damage is frontloaded on RQ. Therefore, it is never fair for Karma who misses the skill or an opponent who eats the skillshot. Again, I'll emphasize this, it feels unfair when Karma misses 80% of her damage just coming from a minion body blocking or having it blocked by projectile walls or that people sidestepped the skillshot, you know why? Because that's the only reliable source of damage she can deal. For her opponents, it feels unfair because they have their health chunked down by one ability. It's all about game health, it is not beneficial for Karma because that's 90% of her damage, it is not beneficial for opponents because that's only one ability chunking away 40-50% of their health in one hit. Because the values are supercharged and locked in to one single ability, you can never balance the ability effectively to feel rewarding for landing/dodging it, or feel less punishing about missing it.

Except for your W which forces the enemy to disengage or your E which just lets you run away scott-free. Or you can just wait until your Q is up again because it's one of the lowest cooldown poke spells in the game.

There is such a thing where both sides of the coin feel bad. People don't want to destroy Karma just knowing as long as you miss her RQ and majority of her Qs, she is a sitting duck for 24 seconds. Current version of W is a mini version of RQ, too much damage loaded on to the ability, but easily disengaged and has little rewards for keeping the ability in tact. And E is just unhealthy for Melees and creates frustration for those who have the upperhand against Karma. There's nothing fun about seeing about a Karma resorting to E and turtling away for the rest of the game. It feels bland, boring and uninteractive to play.

Blitzcrank and Morgana are far more helpless when missing their Q's than Karma and have much longer cooldown on their Q's. Morgana's ultimate is considered very iconic and powerful but also very often merely forces the enemy to disengage instead of actually landing that stun, because forcing a disengage is still very strong.

Blitzcrank & Morgana have far more useful utilities to back up their failures. Blitzcrank has a trusty E and R to do his work, while Morgana has E which is probably more than enough to keep her carries alive since it is cc-immune if she ever fails Q and R. And failing Q is very unlikely given that she can initiate from a longer range compared to Karma's Q and W, which means at most times, Morgana and her carry are at safety.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Blitzcrank & Morgana have far more useful utilities to back up their failures. Blitzcrank has a trusty E and R to do his work, while Morgana has E which is probably more than enough to keep her carries alive since it is cc-immune if she ever fails Q and R. And failing Q is very unlikely given that she can initiate from a longer range compared to Karma's Q and W, which means at most times, Morgana and her carry are at safety.

Morgana W does nothing unless she lands the Q and her E is far less versatile than Karma's and doesn't actually allow disengaging because it gives no movespeed, it merely prevents someone from slowing you (a champion with no mobility) down in some way.

Blitzcrank W is terrible for disengaging due to the self slow and he probably used it to get in position for a Q anyways, his E and R obviously don't do anything unless the enemy is in close range, and if they were in close range he wouldn't have tried to Q.

Evenstar2 votes

If your idea of Morgana's E is to disengage, then obviously you're horribly wrong. A CC-immune shield is just as versatile as any other utility. Having 60% move speed for 1.5 second doesn't make it a better disengage. In a game where crowd controls will forever remain as an important aspect, a CC-immune shield is as strong, if not stronger to Karma'E, and definitely boasts overall highly versatility. There are so many other supports who can bring the same kind of effect with Karma's E fuctions - creating distance/closing gaps, namely: Janna/Nami.

On top of that, a Morgana can use ancient coin or frost queen to remedy her inability to provide move speed/disengage.

he probably used it to get in position for a Q anyways,

Wrong. W has more uses than getting in to position for Q, a smart Blitzcrank capitalizes his W by using it in tandem with E and R. Blitzcrank's hallmark has always been making picks with his Q with or without W. If your argument with Blitzcrank's W is he uses it to ensure Q lands, then what can you say about Thresh's Q? Does that mean we need to give Thresh a similar effect to Blitz's W as well? Thesh, even without a gap closer can land a Q just as much as Blitzcrank could with his own Q. And even without their playmaking hooks, they are just as capable of resorting to W/E/R to do most of the job.

REDREX72 votes

I would have to agree with Quepha overall. Karma's mantra Q has lot of reward because you are combining a normal ability and ult into one super charged ability. It does slightly less damage the other mages Q and R such as lux. So based on what Vesivian is saying Karma is unhealthy because it is unfair that Karma landed her Q and R on a target but lux is healthy because she landed her QR while still dealing more damage.? Karma QR is not one ability. Its her Q and R.......... Another example of this is Jayce. Jayce combines two abilities to get a massive damage nuke. Does Jayce also feel unfair and unhealthy to you? Based on your logic he would be. If karma misses Q she has it back up in 2.75 seconds with max cdr (which you need to have). Karma also has a .9 ap scaling root to disengage if she missess and also deal damage, and a shield to get her out. And if those are on CD because she used them to land Mantra Q and she missed her Mantra Q than yeah Karma should feel bad. YOU USED YOUR ENTIRE KIT TO LAND YOUR MOST IMPORTANT SPELL AND YOU MISSED IT THEN IT SHOULD FEEL HORRIBLE. Does not feel unfair to play against because Karma is getting really close to enemy champions to land it, so she is exposed to CC and enemy retaliation. Feels fair to Karma because she had to commit to landing it the hole thing and has tools to do so. And Karma's passive allows her to get mantra back up really fast. So if you miss it well you will have it back up rather quickly. But i do agree her regular W has to high of an ap ratio and needs to lose .3 or .2 ap scaling and give her shield an offensive component or give karma damage some where else in her kit. I play a lot of Karma.... and I love her.

IxtaliKing1 votes

But i do agree her regular W has to high of an ap ratio and needs to lose .3 or .2 ap scaling and give her shield an offensive component or give karma damage some where else in her kit. I play a lot of Karma.... and I love her.

In other words revert the 5.10 changes, Amen to that Bro.

REDREX72 votes

{quoted}

In other words revert the 5.10 changes, Amen to that Bro.

Pretty much. .9 is a high ratio on her W. And while the bigger shield feels nice to a certain extent I feel it brought her closer to lulu level of being picked a lot in ranked because of how safe and anti assassin she can be. I feel like most karma players (myself included) want lesser shield value if it meant having a shield bomb back. Just more damage in her kit spread out.

IxtaliKing1 votes

Exactly, and we wouldn't have any of these problems right now if riot wasn't so intent on trying to fix what isn't broken.

D2Vincent1 votes

tbh I feel like Karma should be more of a Burst mage, considering that my last game I kept getting 3-shotted by Karma's spells, and I was a relatively tanky JG Karthus (game lasted an hour, I eventually switched jg item for Liandry's). I feel like Riot is slightly confused on what champs get to be what roles.

ModWulf Helhammer1 votes

Mid lane Karma is a burst mage

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