Wasn't the reason riot completely rebalanced the jungle creeps and the complete item overhaul for jungle items, to increase jungle diversity?
Then they systematically nerfed ranged junglers, slow junglers, weak early game junglers, and the top teir of season 4 still sits at the top uncontested.
Is this hypocrisy or did i just interpret the initial changes incorrectly?
BluePolarizer1 voteslol the top tier of season 4 was actually reduced.
Back then in April/May (unnerfed feral flare era), consistently picked junglers included Lee, J4, Kha'Zix, Eve, Elise, Nocturne, Xin Zhao and Vi. Then came the tank jungler era where Nocturne and Xin faded out but Rammus, Sejuani and Maokai came in.
The jungle diversity was amazing.
deadlychuck1 votesthough the top tier right now (excluding the rise of nid jungle) are still the same top teirs from season 4. Even among those junglers you listed, Vi, Lee Sin, and J4, were still the most versatile and remained in the top regardless of the changed made to the jungle.
Elise and kha'zix got a targeted nerfs which removed them from the top tier, and the others fell off because of sweeping changes that were made.
BluePolarizer1 votesyep, the changes fixed zero problems from season 4 and instead made diversity worse.
Duke Anax1 votesI dunno I felt like it already brought Alistar back towards the jungle, with cinders coming up he is definitely back in.
Killstrado1 votesI mean people just need to re figure masteries, runes, and build as well as making sure which jungle item is right for them in my opinion because I used a lot of junglers that would have deemed unfit last season but I do great with them. Try new and unusual things, wait on your buffs clear small camps back and buy jungle item pots boots whatever you choose then go get buffs gank rinse repeat
deadlychuck1 votesThough how does knowing that fix any of the problems? The most optimal way to jungle should still be the most optimal way, though it doesn't explain why the non-optimal ways are struggling so much right now.
In fact that goes for the whole game, even if there are numerically optimal ways to play the game, the alternatives should not be borderline impossible. It removes the idea of playing to your play style and replaces it with playing to the "best" play style.
TehNACHO1 votesThough how does knowing that fix any of the problems? The most optimal way to jungle should still be the most optimal way.
Wrong.
Back in the old Jungle for example, the Big Wraith did many times more damage than its littler companions could hope to do in the same time, so the logic was to kill the Big Wraith as fast as possible. Nowadays though, the little Raptors actually do more damage than the big Raptor. Can you not realize why the old optimal strategy will not work now?
deadlychuck1 votesI don't think you understood what i was saying. There will always be a "best" way to play, because of math. That might change depending on how riot decides to make changes to the distribution of health and damage in the jungle and such. But, the numbers can't be tuned in a way which utterly removes the viability of anything that doesn't resemble that most optimal way, because that doesn't allow for individualized play.
I'll use world of warcraft as an example for this, because it's easier to construct a hypothetical situation, although any type of hot bar RPG would work in this example. Consider you are playing a class. The optimal stat for that class is (in the case of wow) crit. Then with that the optimal rotation is rotation X. So the best possible way to play the class mathematically is to max your critical strike and follow rotation X. Although in rotation X, you have to manage a buff on yourself, but you aren't very good at that so you can't preform rotation X to max efficiency. It's therefore less effective, than if you used rotation Y and stacked haste instead. You're maximum potential damage would be reduced, but your actual damage would see an increase, because the rotation is easier for you to do.
So i then ask you which rotation is "best" X or Y?
Killstrado1 votesThe best way to play is the way each individual summoner plays best not math(although it needs to be taking in consideration) a good rotation for spells is nice but ultimately thinking on the fly is what's needed be cause not always will you have time for a full rotation, I simply think that people are stuck on sites like moba lolking and pro builds for answers to the way others play instead of figuring out a way to make their favorite champs work well, don't get discouraged because your team thinks you picked a ridiculous item that shouldn't be used on a specific champ or because you maxed a different skill than what's normal. Simply grow a pair and do what you want and learn from it :)
deadlychuck1 votesAgain though, the problem is when in the case of like the jungle, when there is so little room for adjustment from the optimal, that you can't have any freedom in how you personally change your play-style and approach different situations. If riot wants to remove the absolute dominance of the big 5 or w/e it's simple. Nerf the living shit out of the jungle to make it easier for everyone to do. It doesn't matter what you do to the jungle for the most powerful, because if they are the best designed for it then they will continue to be the best designed no matter how hard you try to make it. Though by making the jungle easier overall, it allows for champions who are less adept at clearing it able to be played to a reasonable margin of success.
edit: oh yeah, instead of nerfing the jungle they could also make general buffs to the jungle items which make killing the jungle safer and easier to do across the board for all champions. The top teir would also feel most of these changes the least, depending on how riot went about it.
Killstrado1 votesYou're just not open minded enough to branch out, plus look at current PBE changes, don't let the crowd think for you, there's plenty of champs now and every one of them can be countered in more than one way, some more than others obviously