and we'll still see threads complaining that she's being nerfed ASAP despite her enormous winrate on top of an inflated pick AND ban rate. You can't complain about Riot not balancing their game and then collectively screech when they work to IMMEDIATELY balance an obvious outlier before it gets even more out of hand
Lee Sin and Graves never had stats this ridiculous. Ivern never had stats this ridicul-- oh wait xd
The Lost Marbles24 votesIvern has nerfs on the PBE right now, at least.
Base movespeed lowered from 330 to 325 Friend of the Forest (Passive) health and mana costs to place groves increased; Health cost from [145-80] to [204 - 380] Mana cost from [135-67] to [158 - 140]
I guess that's something. The increased Health cost seems significant.
Titanium708 votesWow that's actually brutal - ouch. That could be enough to kill him once and for all - lol.
sir d wreck18 votesIt seems like he always just sprouts back up again. You wood be going on a limb if you think this will kill him, and if it does try not to wet your plants too much.
Votable Jester12 votes[{quoted}](name=sir d wreck,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Emw42ebN,comment-id=000400000002,timestamp=2017-05-05T02:07:50.793+0000)
It seems like he always just sprouts back up again. You wood be going on a limb if you think this will kill him, and if it does try not to wet your plants too
muchmulch.
jama65519 votessejuani is getting sejuanied????? who would have guessed it
ModAcademy Kayn4 votesI don't understand what it means in this situation either.
Forbidden Siren13 votesIt started back when Sejuani became THE tank champion during the Cinderhulk meta when it was first introduced. They decided to nerf Sejuani instead of Cinderhulk and eventually, they nerfed Cinderhulk but left Sej in a horrible state by not giving her a compensation buff. When people ask Riot why they wouldn't buff her, one of the Rioter actually said, "Her time in the limelight is up" while Lee Sin has been in the limelight f-o-r-e-v-e-r. Eventually, they never looked at her again, leaving her in the gutter until the mid-season tank update.
Now she's relevant again, even though admittedly she is broken, she's been Sejuani'd after just one day.
ModAcademy Kayn3 votesI understand the origin, but doesn't being Sejuanied imply that she's getting nerfed along side the item that made her strong? Her nerfs aren't even that bad.
LankPants2 votesThe changes they could get through in the hot fix weren't that bad, the one they have on the PBE is very harsh however. Increasing the CD of Sej's passive really hurts her jungle sustain since it won't be coming up VS the majority of camps now, so it basically just puts Sej straight back to square one.
Anidan2 votesI still feel like this is more along the lines of an Olaf'ing than being Sejuani'd, though. Ridiculous performance leading to harsh kneejerk reaction nerfs, but not ncessarily an accompanying item nerf that had originally helped to put her over the top in the first place, that's an Olaf'ing.
LankPants2 votesGive Riot time, they'll probably nerf Cinderhulk again just as a 'fuck you'. They have a record to maintain.
SpecterVonBaren2 votesThey already did actually.
Seekêr14 votes"lee sin and graves never had stats this ridiculous"
They did.....both of them.
But I do agree that the sej nerfs are just.
LankPants7 votesLee Sin still has a >40% pick rate, >25% ban rate and he just topped a 50% winrate this morning. He's still pulling some absurd stats TBH.
JMoormann1 votesThe problem with Lee is that (unless he is nerfed into complete unplayability) he will always have an insane pick rate, simply because his kit feels so fun and smooth. The same happened recently with Lucian: he had something close to a 40% win rate and still one of the highest play rates in the game, for the same reason as Lee.
I agree that a 50% win rate is fairly high for a champ with a very high skill cap and insane play rate, but it's impossible to ever get his play rate to average without completely gutting him (which obviously shouldn't happen).
LankPants4 votesI agree that a 50% win rate is fairly high for a champ with a very high skill cap and insane play rate, but it's impossible to ever get his play rate to average without completely gutting him (which obviously shouldn't happen).
Seeing him a little weak right now would be far from the worst thing ever. I think it's fair to say there's two groups of people playing LoL at this point, Lee Sin players and people who are sick of Lee Sin. Giving him some "time out of the spotlight" would help a lot of players preserve what remains of their sanity.
TEA Nietzsche 2 votesLee Sin has had a 50%+ winrate only once in the past 3 years - and that was 50.4% for one month. Graves has never quite reached the 55%.
XJ9lol11 votesIt's just how the community has always been. I think Riot needs to stop making retarded changes like this that allow champions to spike from sub 50% to nearly 60%. This isn't the first time it's happened, not even close to the last. Even worse is this is I think of immediate memory the second time it's happened to Sejuani specifically.
Riot should take a step back and figure out why these champions are underperforming and go for common factors. This idiotic idea of "We gotta have the jungle exactly how it is!" leading to them buffing specific champions over the top has gotten us nowhere in 7 seasons.
What's even worse is I guarantee you, next season Riot will overhaul the jungle again and talk about how they "learned so much from the previous jungle" only to repeat the same stupid decisions. Here's a thought, REVERT THE JUNGLE BACK TO HOW IT WAS IN SEASONS 3 AND 4 THEN GO FROM THERE. Absolutely retarded how strong picks like Graves are compared to everything else because the current jungle is designed so poorly.
Never once in eight or so years have I contemplated maining a different role. This season I now have the thought cross my mind literally every day, multiple times. It isn't burn out, it's the fact it's textbook stupidity dictating changes.
JMoormann1 votesIt's not like the jungle was much more balanced back in S3 and S4 though...
3TWarrior3 votesactually, back in season 3 and some of 4, if you had the right items, anyone could be a jungler and it led to a variety of picks being chosen. There was still a meta, but anyone was allowed to shake it up
now it's pick 1 / X champs or suffer the consequences
Ben Sharpio10 votesLMAO this is gold. But i genuinely wonder who thought giving sejuani such incredibly high stats wouldn't get out of control quickly. I mean, holy shit dude. I was playing sion this one time, and i had a total of **86 ** armour to her 800
Big Lincoln5 votesi wonder who thought giving sejuani a 4.5 second HARD lockdown combo for ~2 seconds of attacking, maybe less if you land 2 autos and both Ws, was a good idea
Gorgiolio37 votesI don't wanna shit on the people developing and designing champions, but I legit don't think they understand some of the nuances of the game. A 40% max health damage combo? The cc? Like they have to legit not play the game at all to not see the problem with any of that.
Spoofghoul4 votesMost of them are bronze/silver And don't play nearly as much as a lot of us ''actual players''
So yes they don't see the nuances as clearly
which always bothers me because they don't communicate their changes that well with the playerbase either, a lot of people here and elsewhere with well, more insight then them, come up with better ideas or criticism and it just gets overlooked or ignored
They literally have a giant ass goldmine of feedback and they choose not to mine the heaps of golden feedback and then act surprised when shit fall flat on it's face time and time again
What was that proverb about stupidity again?
SociopathFriend3 votesNot exactly, the designers just come up with the kit and throw numbers into it before releasing it into the wild, knowing full and well the balance team will have to look into it.
Numbers alone don't help, you need the data of it performing in live. Hell, look at Sion's innate and tell me that doesn't sound OP at first glance?
LankPants11 votesI feel like if you had 86 armour when Sej had 800 something went horibly wrong considering that even without her passive she'd have 350 armour, over 4x as much as you.
Edit: Found the game. She had 
. You had and a bunch of random AD items. WTF are you even complaining about?
Xonra10 votesThere have been plenty of cases of high win rate on release champs and so on that we are told "we want to see how it plays out first. So you can quietly and gently put that up your backside with trying to tell me I can't call b.s. on them being hypocritical with Sej. They will leave champs in silly states for months with slaps on the wrist. Sej had less than 48 hours and got a hotfix? Not a "next patch" but a HOTFIX lol
Sorry but I'm gonna call bullshit on that.
doodlebob6668 votesivern hasn't had a sub 55% winrate for the jungle in months get your facts straight
9Wly9oMl021 votesJust out of curiosity, what do you do for a living?
doodlebob6662 votesstudent, and professional know it all
Tormentula8 votesWhat you're seeing is the new malzahar.
It won't be long until sej gets nerfs in every part of her kit until she's not even the same playable champion she used to be (and yea, she wasn't bad pre mid season, her clear was just shit off raptors and krugs alone.)
Karn Bishop7 votesThis is why you should always decide on what champion to main based on how long riot needs to "watch potential champion game health because were not sure if a 90% winrate graves is unhealthy yet for the game"
So in general it is safe to main these champions because riot will never step in to balance them in any meaningful timeframe.
Cowseed3 votes90%... Ok, now you are pushing it.
Malicious Metal6 votesBecause people are passionate and pretty darn biased when it comes to which champs are allowed to be good or not. Sejuani deserves these nerfs, every one of 'em.
Glad she's getting them so I can actually play her without her being permabanned.
Big Lincoln3 votesnobody more passionate about sej than me desu
Xonra11 votesMaybe take off your "everyone just likes to bitch" goggles and realize maybe people are calling b.s. cause she is getting hotfixed in a state multiple champs have been in that we are told to "wait and see" as they are held off till next patch.
It's double stand b.s. that annoys me, not that she is getting nerfed. It was obvious she shouldn't have went live like this, same as Zac, but why are they suddenly different when there are STILL champs that are in the gutter way worse than Zac is now, but Zac gets a hot fix buff, and Ivern is still waiting for his pbe nerfs to go through.
Sej though? Naw hotfix instantly.
LankPants5 votesIt's double stand b.s. that annoys me, not that she is getting nerfed. It was obvious she shouldn't have went live like this, same as Zac, but why are they suddenly different when there are STILL champs that are in the gutter way worse than Zac is now, but Zac gets a hot fix buff, and Ivern is still waiting for his pbe nerfs to go through.
The tank reworks as a whole should have stayed on the PBE for another patch and Riot should have spent far more time talking to the players of these champions rather than just assuming the knew what we wanted.
Honestly, I think if the major balance changes that the community was suggesting were done for Sej (change E stacks, buff W, make W magic, nerf passive) were actually done she would have released in a fairly good place.
Malicious Metal2 votesThis is flat out a lie. Every champion rework so far was hot fixed soon after they've been released to the live servers and deemed OP or UP. Skarner boasted a similar win rate like Sejuani and he was consequently nerfed two days later.
The PBE is to test bugs and overall feel, it's not there to gauge a champion's balance state as seen by everyone thinking Mao would be trash when he seems to be the most balanced of these tanks.
This is not a double standard, that has been the status quo since Riot started updating champions.
Knoyle6 votesI think It's more the fact these changes came so fast compared to a bunch of other champions being stupid strong and staying that way for up to months.
Rexxiee3 votesBy the way everyone says that.
Remember the shaco mains saying shaco was gutted with the rework and that he would be "unplayable trash"?
Thats the same shaco that had to get hotfix nerfed.
VoraciousX5 votesBy the way everyone says that.
Remember the shaco mains saying shaco was gutted with the rework and that he would be "unplayable trash"?
Thats the same shaco that had to get hotfix nerfed.
Assassin Shaco is pretty much unplayable trash right now, unless you play him like Pink Ward in the top lane. The only reason he's been at a good win rate is because of the TANK Shaco, a playstyle he was not MEANT to have. He's an assassin, but you can't really play him like one anymore. Even Pink Ward had to buy a manamune to even get AP Shaco to work, so now he basically builds hybrid.
As for Sejuani, there's no way I would consider her Olaf'd. The nerfs are basically a tickle, and it doesn't even address her real problem(she gets like 180 armor and 130 MR at level 1, and can deal 10 or 15% max health damage as well, I mean come on, why does she even need TWO passives?)
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesHmm assassin shaco unplayable trash, yet his assassin build has the highest winrate with r.hydra, statikk and tf. So don't tell me his assassin playstyle is UNPLAYABLE TRASH. Git gud at the champ. Going TF, statikk and GA is disgusting. But yeah he is unplayable trash so that mains boast a 63% winrate. I can't remember any other champ with such a high winrate on mains except ryze and maybe azir. Difference is that first time ryze, azir players had 30-40% winrate whereas shaco 0-25 games manage around 50% winrate.
3TWarrior2 votesumm, what's the point of posting his mains winrate?
the average winrate for ivern alone in platinum is 57% compared to shaco's 53% and if we compare winrates by mains, the highest outlying win statistic is 76% for both BUT A KEY DIFFERENCE is that the ivern player with that statistic has TRIPLE the games played that the shaco player has
Nevrankroaton1 votesAnd you are the same person who made threads about how her rework would destroy her identity, destroy her and other 'apocalypse' stuff. And now, like a true hypocrite, you say "Well look guys she is broken, it was so obvious" when you sang a different song before. She is very strong but also very fun and her jungle clear is far more interesting to optimize. I don't like the massive nerf on her W tho.
You truly are a shining example of why Riot don't answer to the constant QQ thread on board.
TwinkiePro12 votesIdentity =/ power.
Look at malzahar and his identity versus power. His identity has been long gone, yet when changed, was an utter mess to balance and recieved only nerfs.
Big Lincoln4 votesYeah. Ignore the constant threads where I said she'd be broken, me saying that her identity would be replaced at the very start (which it has) supersedes all of that
