Does anybody actually think that Riot accomplished there goals for Ryze rework?

LegacyDAP··30 votes·2,611 views

The Rune Mage had three major problems: he's too difficult to learn, too strong once you've mastered him, and too confusing to lane against for players who haven't memorized the nitty gritty details of Ryze's stacking and spell-combo gameplay.

These were their goals, and honestly it looks worse than pre-rework. He's not too hard to learn, but his win rate is at 40~% for less than 125 games played. His win rate spikes to 50~% at 125+ games played. So he's EXTREMELY strong when mastered compared to any new Ryze players. And finally, I don't think this Ryze is any less confusing than old Ryze, in fact I think it's MORE confusing than old Ryze if you don't know the "nitty gritty" details of his combos.

I'm sorry, but I think this rework failed miserably, instead of sitting at a 40~% win rate below 125 games and 60~% win rate at 125+ games (a mastered champion). He sits at 40~% when new, and 50~% when mastered.

Not only that, but he still does the same thing as old Ryze, which is: Instant (no cast time) lock down, deal tons of damage using his combos, lockdown again after the enemy gets about 4 seconds of free time, and uses his combos to kill them.

I'm no champion design person or balance team, but I literally have zero idea how this design is more healthy than the last when it's borderline keeping the same mechanics that he used to have and changing some abilities interactions.

I'm sure some people will disagree with me and think Ryze is currently in a healthy balanced state, but this literally failed all the goals that Riot was trying to accomplish BESIDES making Ryze easier to learn. And it failed the goals of the reason he got reworked in the first place which was instant lockdown with burst followed up by more instant lockdown and burst.

What do you guys think?

52 Comments

ModAcademy Kayn24 votes

I believe the Ryze rework did him justice. The mechanics on E are simple: They enhance his abilities in three ways

  • Q does more damage on enemies with E
  • W duration is doubled on enemies with E
  • E spreads E onto nearby enemies

Compare that to the last rework Ryze had... it's really simple. New Ryze has clear weaknesses (He's short ranged, sacrifices damage for safety, has to stick around for a while to offload his damage combo) and fun strengths (Lots of damage, rewarding combos, kiting and proxy-tankiness due to his shields)

And it hasn't at all kept any mechanics from his previous reworks that made him unhealthy. The Spell Vamp, Bouncing Ball with Ult AOE, spammable snare are gone, replaced/compacted into combos instead. You want bounces? E-E-Q. You want sheild and speed boost? Q-E-W-Q. He no longer gets to push a button to gain benefits, he actually has to work for them by putting effort into combos.

In the end, Ryze is miles simpler than his previous states were, he has clear weaknesses and strengths, and it's really not that hard to learn what a single ability enhances. Hell, most people understand how Karma's R and Heimers R works, Ryze's E is just isn't as visually obvious, so people don't give it a thought of the day.

blackfootedfox3 votes

You explained it so much better than I could have put it. Ryze still has a skill floor, but once you learn the simple starting combos he gets way easier.

Mojihito66612 votes

Well i personally think Ryze needs a rework.

LegacyDAP3 votes

That's the problem, he needs another rework. Like for the 4th time.

RainbowIcee2 votes

not again, please just urgot him for like 3 years. Other champions need a chance to even get a VU.

Sherogarth6 votes

Ryze ryze and successful rework in one sentence? Ha Ha Ha. Good one.

Sona x Rubick5 votes

exactly how can ryze lock you down a second time?

Schàdenfreude9 votes

use ur imaginashun

LegacyDAP2 votes

Sorry, I guess it depends on whether you get CDR or not, but if you have 20% CDR there is a 4 second window between each empowered W (E>W), so that's my bad.

He'll still instant lock you down and do his full combo and burst you in that time, and then you got a 4 second window between each one.

5 seconds if he uses Q > W > Q > E > Q, but it does tons of damage.

Sona x Rubick6 votes

better than the previous ryzes.

LegacyDAP1 votes

Just because something is better doesn't mean it's good.

Sprinkled Dirt > Dirt. I'd prefer to have neither, regardless of one being better.

So gameplay wise Ryze is healthier because he can't use his lockdown every second or whatever like old Ryze, but he's still pretty close to old Ryze in unhealthy levels.

Jalkan4 votes

lmao sprinkled dirt isn't better than normal dirt it's worse

Sona x Rubick4 votes

how? are you talking about how his lockdown being somewhat still spammable? then they can increase the cooldown easily.

Schàdenfreude3 votes

Honestly, he doesn't do too much early and is a monster late (I've seen a empowered Q do 1.6k damage 0_0). His laning phase is quite trash now too.

I really wish the old Ryze was back, not the earliest one, but the one after the first rework. I personally thought he was completely fine at that time.

ViiLLAiN2 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, he doesn't do too much early and is a monster late (I've seen a empowered Q do 1.6k damage 0_0). His laning phase is quite trash now too.

I really wish the old Ryze was back, not the earliest one, but the one after the first rework. I personally thought he was completely fine at that time.

how is his laning trash ?? he can clear waves so fast with tear.... he has so much sustain lol and can roam with ult ... i dont think u playing him right

LegacyDAP3 votes

Because if you're using your mana to clear waves early it's going to take about 4 e's and a Q and you have a very small mana pool regardless if you get tear or not.

His ult is barely what I'd call a roaming tool, you go 1750 units and that's pretty much nothing since it takes so long to teleport with it.

His sustain is pretty alright though I'd agree with.

Schàdenfreude3 votes

First of all...

he has so much sustain

LMAAAAAO. This is next level absurdity. The only "sustain" he gets is if he builds ROA. He has absolutely no-built in sustain, only a shield.

His laning is trash because he has no reliable way of harassing his lane opponent since his Q can't go through minions. In duels, yes, he can be strong, but he really has no pressure. Even though he can clear waves fast, there are plenty of other champions that can do that.

i dont think u playing him right

I don't think you know the thing Ryze is.

LegacyDAP2 votes

Well for the record RoA is really easy to get early on, just takes a bit to stack, but the passive on it is god like.

ViiLLAiN1 votes

{quoted}

First of all...

LMAAAAAO. This is next level absurdity. The only "sustain" he gets is if he builds ROA. He has absolutely no-built in sustain, only a shield.

His laning is trash because he has no reliable way of harassing his lane opponent since his Q can't go through minions. In duels, yes, he can be strong, but he really has no pressure. Even though he can clear waves fast, there are plenty of other champions that can do that.

I don't think you know the thing Ryze is.

mana sustain with tear lol.... sustain doesnt always mean hp..... also his yu dont need 4 e to clear waves u dont just spam abilites and go oom lol u use auto attacks too lol... he is hard to gank due to his passive speed buff and can win trades with that too ... honestly everything on this whole post just screams u dont play ryze

Honestly one of the better mid laners at the moment. His burst is insanse his lock down is very easy... his dmg is absurd late game the amount of mana he gets due to the items he builds is massive.... u just dont have enough exp with this champ they did a very good job on his rework

His combos are also very nice and gives his options in his play style....

i always do well and win with him.. all due to how easy it is to clear waves and roam and create map pressure

Schàdenfreude2 votes

mana sustain with tear lol.... sustain doesnt always mean hp..... also his yu dont need 4 e to clear waves u dont just spam abilites and go oom lol u use auto attacks too lol... he is hard to gank due to his passive speed buff and can win trades with that too ... honestly everything on this whole post just screams u dont play ryze

Did I ever say that he didn't have decent wave clear? And honestly everything on your whole post just screams you don't play Ryze.

Honestly one of the better mid laners at the moment. His burst is insanse his lock down is very easy... his dmg is absurd late game the amount of mana he gets due to the items he builds is massive.... u just dont have enough exp with this champ they did a very good job on his rework

He is not one of the better mid laners at the moment. It's at 44% winrate rofl. The burst IS insane and his lockdown IS very easy, and his damage and the amount of mana he gets is massive. Which is why it needs to be changed. I've seen a Ryze Q do 1.6k damage once. You just don't have enough exp with this champ and they did not do a very good job on his rework.

And for the record, you do not do well with him. The last four games you played in ranked with Ryze were ethier 5/8, 0/5, or 1/8.

KoKoboto2 votes

His laning phase isn't trash LOL

Sire Hippington3 votes

Yea, they clearly missed the mark by far on those points. Though there is one thing going for new ryze: He's more fun to play. So they didn't improve most game-health issues(though he atleast isn't an aoe-destruction mage that can duel anyone), but he atleast became more interesting to win. Not a great accomplishment for the ~4th rework, but better than nothing.

General Esdeath 3 votes

No. He does more damage, isn't as hard but is more easily shut down if he falls behind at all, and his ult is so useless outside of premades (even then it's shit) and LCS.

Veigarisgod12 votes

Yeah. I just stopped playing him, can't wait for next years ryze rework...

Bisaknosp2 votes

way too strong, sleeper imo

cant wait for his next rework tbh

grug2 votes

the last iteration was the most fun. the current one just sucks donkey gonads

Ok sure but why1 votes

they changed his unlimited heals to unlimited damage and a shield

LegacyDAP3 votes

Well, he had unlimited shield and damage before too pretty much.

Ok sure but why1 votes

well,,

they also changed his insane splash damage to his e

LegacyDAP5 votes

His E doesn't really ever splash though is the problem, unless you're using it to clear waves. The damage on it is mediocre at best.

Snowplosion1 votes

I think the way his kit is created now will make it easier to balance, but from a gameplay standpoint it's the same thing.

HaloDragonX1 votes

He has a 500 BASE damage nuke, a speedup and shield so you can't do anything to him, and a 2 second click root.

cyberchade1 votes

i think they did well i just this his E needs to be louder and brighter since i dont see the particals some times when i play vs him, but i know what to do vs him and it doesnt feel like the ryse player smashed his cat on the keybourd to get that triple kill

TotalJerk1 votes

I think Ryze is like Gangplank and Azir. Aside from bugfixes they should just leave him alone for a while until people truly learn how to play him.

WinTheWarOnPants1 votes

can any one explain all this crap about ryze being a difficult champ? i've only played him twice in his last iteration and he was one of the most easy face roll champs i've played. i mean you have a targeted snare and ONE skill shot. all you do is walk up and snare them(so you cant miss your ONE skill shot) then proceed to mash all your buttons as fast as possible until they die. legit curious as to why people say it cause i really don't have a clue.

Abyssphere1 votes

They say it because stats > anecdotal evidence. Ryze was impossible to balance between regular people and pros for a few reasons. The first was ping difference, the second was skill level.

WinTheWarOnPants1 votes

so no one knows?

Earl Eulrich1 votes

Nope, a skilled ryze is just still a very dominant thing...not necessarily in SoloQ were you can´t reliably play around his obscene strong laning and his ult - but in proplay he´s already very high pick&ban again (especially in EU so far) and will surly be one of the deceiding picks at worlds again. also he´s just broken in TTT.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

they will have another shot at him next year most likely.

his ult is pretty cool. but then again how many times do you actually play with people that listen to what your asking them to do. obvious things.

he does a lot of damage don't get me wrong. a single Q can do upwards of 1k damage. however he isn't as spammy and its somewhat easy to dodge. and his root doesn't last as long

also he can't build 2 tank items like old ryze. old ryze used to build GA and frozen heart and still kill you very quick.

Golden Tager X1 votes

FUCK NO.

He is even more powerful than before if you know how to use him. 2 sec snare into death with literally 0 way to play around it. Stacking insane amounts of ap, and don't even get me started on that shield of his. A good Ryze can win pretty much any matchup, at least in top lane. Though his Mid matchups are still pretty much wins too.

E->W->Q->E->Q=death. With enough cdr he will literally has his e on a 1.3ish cd, and it resets his q. that means that he can shove 2 q's in when he empowered snares you.

His waveclear is also very good. His only real weakness comes from his ult, which is more likely to lose a game than win it. Now while yes Windman can still do pretty well, it is a complete skill matchup. Just try playing a melee with only one way to get and stay on his target, you will feel completely helpless as he E->W->Q->run away->E->Q's you if you ever even try to close on to him, he is oppressive in the lane and doesn't fall off late, it is insane.

Seenan1 votes

I got outbullied as Renekton vs Ryze. Mind you, I'm not a big Renekton player at all, but still. I couldn't get near him, and when I could? Root, QWeQWEQWEQWEQWE etc, where's my hp?

Ryze is like a near-max AS Kogmaw that can build tanky with purely burst AP damage instead of AD.

Strong sustained damage, shields and tanky items that synergize with him (ROA is Ryze' bread and butter imo). I mentioned burst and sustain. Due to one his rune combos of 100%+ damage on an Overload, he can be both.

I think an issue is that he benefits from two different damage ratios, while, there's many items that provide both stats. Mainly, ROA and Seraph's. No way to gauge his damage, and even then, he'll make you eat 5 Qs anyway so it'll feel strong.

Zetto1 votes

Ryze, at his skill-ceiling level of play, is pretty freaking strong. However unlike old ryze he has distinct weaknesses, and is actually able to be shut-down and kept irrelevant.

Sir Fuzzi1 votes

He's not balanced which is probably in the way his scalings work. But the design itself, the way he plays, is very fun and a far cry from old Ryze. Numbers are the name of the game now, I think adjusting the function of things would be terrible.

Spell Flux finally makes sense, and it gives him a clear window. You can easily see when he has it on you and he can't hit you with the bulk of his damage through minions, even if he can snare. And now he can't spam the snare, so there's windows of power. This is the design they wanted for old rework Ryze, where he got red light/green light like Gnar (was supposed to have, if he isn't balanced now-- not a Gnar guy, don't keep up). Not only does it make sense to play and play against, but it's better for any of his design choices. There's a clear 'way he works,' which is to say how and when he triggers Spell Fluxes, and how his opponents challenge him to use his kit's resources at opportune times instead of using them while opponents can swing the situation to their advantage.

Old Ryze-- both pre and post rework-- were just sort of a situation where you hoped he wasn't concentrated and skilled enough to play Ryze to all of his strengths, which eventually became 'outrange him or outrun him' when he started casting. Nowadays, after we squeeze the numbers into place, at least there's a when and why happening. The E/W happens a bit fast too, but we'll get there.

Anything but reverting him. He's actually interesting to play, now.

BatchBustsMeta1 votes

I doubt it's perfect, but it's sure as hell the best attempt to date.

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

He doesn't permasnare anymore since W can never be resetted & has such a high cooldown, plus the fact that he rarely builds Rylai to stick to targets if he chose the EQEQ combo (reminded that he needs to EWQ or WEQ for movement speed).

Matezoide1 votes

New Ryze is confusing as fuck

Spoofghoul1 votes

i think people play him wrong tbh

he changed quite a bit and for the better

the best way to play him now is to go semi tanky and grab storm raiders surge and get 8% spell vamp from quints/masteries

together with his shield & speed-boost + storm raider he has good enough mobility to keep repositioning to avoid getting caught which helps a lot cos hes short ranged

his tankynes amplifies the shield to be even more tanky and the 8% spell vamp alongside roa's pseudo spell vamp gives him very good in combat sustain which synergizes well with the shields and tank stats this way you become pretty hard to kill Which helps alot with his mana problems as well since every time you take damage roa restores your mana

my build looks like this item 3020 item 3027 item 3116 item 3001 item 3110 + situational item usually voidstaff

had great succes like this

i see most people still go full mana or full ap or both which is probably stronger lategame but makes his early and midgame abysmal and doesn't cover any of his weaknesses nor really amplify his strenghts other then dealing damage

Sariat11 votes

I used to play old ryze all the time, and now that they've reworked him, I just don't like how he plays. They took him from a massive AOE damage dealer that required perfect spellweaving to a single target nuker that never spreads his E to more than 2 targets in any given teamfight. They basically changed him from having a huge skillcap with a great payoff to having a huge skillcap with a payoff that other champions do better.

PJSalt1 votes

I have rank 7 Ryze on 2 accounts with about 500 games played with him...the new Ryze has it's problems. I left the Ryze! main club because of my frustrations with him. I want him to be good, but he's outclassed in almost every way by the top tier mid laners, and has become a situational top laner.

My problems with the new Ryze:

  1. Animations/frames on his moves don't allow you to do smooth combos.
  2. His ult is overall bad design. Sure it has some fun uses, such as unfreezing waves, Zhonyas escape combo, moving super minions, chasing, but it's range is pretty short, it's not good compared to some of the other mage ults (annie, syndra, viktor). His old ult supercharged you, allowing you to duel anyone and do aoe damage in a teamfight. What does his new ult offer him? He isn't strong enough to burst someone down like a true rogue, he is sustained damage.
  3. Takes too long to scale, and doesn't have a powerful late game. He's a sustain mage with no tankiness, and subpar poke. Lifesteal and tanks hard counter him.
  4. New combos aren't actually combos. Your B&B combo is E -> E -> W/Q to get your shield + MS, but your runes takes too long to setup in a fight, and disappear over time (you can't store them for later like Rengar or Annie). Your main DPS combo Q E Q W Q E Q, doesn't give you a shield, costs too much mana, and doesn't do that much damage.

TLDR/Suggested fixes:

  1. Increase ult range (again) or completely rework it to focus around his runes.
  2. Your runes are stored by hitting something with E. Instead make him store runes like Annie's passive; Any 2 spells -> any 3rd spell activates shield + ms.
  3. Fix frames on moves for smoother combos or animation cancels.

These fixes would bring his winrate up a few %.

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