wtf why is malzahar/riven/tristana/trydemere/sylas/pantheon listed as....

xDogMeatx·Dec 30, 2019·9 votes·10,491 views

assassins??? just look in champion collection i understand the (somewhat) meme of tristana being a better assassin then actual assassins but this is ridiculous.

62 Comments

chipndip1Dec 30, 20195 votes

It's the old class categories that Riot never updated in client for some reason.

Z3SIeeperDec 31, 20191 votes

Sylas is pretty new though. They actually labelled him secondary assassin when he's definitely more fighter/mage.

chipndip1Dec 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Sylas is pretty new though. They actually labelled him secondary assassin when he's definitely more fighter/mage.

It's a weird situation that they should have fixed up by now.

LordGeovanniJan 1, 20201 votes

Sylas was introduced as an assassin with a bruiser play style tho. Mages complained that he could get to them really easy and (to placate the largest role in the game who also buy the most skins and most expensive skins) thus he was nerfed into the second worst role in the game

Z3SIeeperJan 1, 20201 votes

{quoted}

he was nerfed into the second worst role in the game

Hope you're not talking about mages.

LordGeovanniJan 2, 20201 votes

No thats the second best role in the game. He was nerfed attempting to make him more bruiser like.

2gudaiyaDec 30, 20194 votes

because they are assassins, that is in their classic description when riot still gave out all the classes a champ can occupy. believe it or not vayne is an assassin, though she might not be listed as one.

Vlada CutDec 30, 20191 votes

{quoted}

because they are assassins, that is in their classic description when riot still gave out all the classes a champ can occupy. believe it or not vayne is an assassin, though she might not be listed as one.

Pantheon was classified as a Fighter when his rework came out.

Assasin playstyle or not, he is still a Fighter by design.

2gudaiyaDec 30, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vlada Cut,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ekogzpyk,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-12-30T22:22:47.657+0000)

Pantheon was classified as a Fighter when his rework came out.

Assasin playstyle or not, he is still a Fighter by design.

he was also an assassin by the old classification so technically he's still an assassin. just saying

Vlada CutDec 30, 20191 votes

{quoted}

he was also an assassin by the old classification so technically he's still an assassin. just saying

That is no longer relevant as he got reworked. In his reworked state he was re-classified into a Fighter as it was shown in his rework reveal trailer. My only guess as to why they suddenly changed his class into assasin was because he could no longer go for item 3161 item 3071 item 3053 into lethality combo, which left him with his old lethality build again.

2gudaiyaDec 30, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vlada Cut,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ekogzpyk,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-30T23:05:26.703+0000)

That is no longer relevant as he got reworked. In his reworked state he was re-classified into a Fighter as it was shown in his rework reveal trailer. My only guess as to why they suddenly changed his class into assasin was because he could no longer go for into lethality combo, which left him with his old lethality build again.

the rework does not change the subclasses. sorry, not sorry, you'll get it eventually.

WTBeGirl100EUhrDec 31, 20191 votes

Yes it does.

2gudaiyaDec 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Yes it does.

no it doesn't, otherwise the fundamentals of the champion change, and rito aren't about that. keep up bro

WTBeGirl100EUhrDec 31, 20191 votes

You gunna tell me that none of the reworks changed the fundamentals of the champion?

Old Pantheon built like an assassin and laned like an assassin. In teamfights he needed to get a flank to use his limited mobility to isolate and kill 1 person before he died. Just like some assassins. The assassin subclass was absolutely justified.

Pantheon is... not that champion anymore and the assassin subclass is no longer relevant to him.

2gudaiyaDec 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You gunna tell me that none of the reworks changed the fundamentals of the champion?

Old Pantheon built like an assassin and laned like an assassin. In teamfights he needed to get a flank to use his limited mobility to isolate and kill 1 person before he died. Just like some assassins. The assassin subclass was absolutely justified.

Pantheon is... not that champion anymore and the assassin subclass is no longer relevant to him.

he's still an assassin if he so wants to be, it's called a subclass not a primary class. welcome to 2020

WTBeGirl100EUhrDec 31, 20191 votes

Nevermind you're not wrong you're trolling.

2gudaiyaDec 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Nevermind you're not wrong you're trolling.

believe what you want to believe dude, the client will tell you itself who is and isn't an assassin. camille is an assassin, puzzle me that when she was released as a bruiser, can't be a subclass of hers now can it?

xDogMeatxDec 30, 20193 votes

{quoted}

because they are assassins, that is in their classic description when riot still gave out all the classes a champ can occupy. believe it or not vayne is an assassin, though she might not be listed as one.

how is malz a assassin hes slow moving since a assassin is defined as fast moving/1000 dashes and why isnt jhin is that slot if malz can be in it. yes i know vayne is one also since she has stealth capacity.

On My Kill ListDec 30, 20192 votes

{quoted}

how is malz a assassin hes slow moving since a assassin is defined as fast moving/1000 dashes and why isnt jhin is that slot if malz can be in it. yes i know vayne is one also since she has stealth capacity.

originally malz had incredible burst before his rework which removed alot of his and shafted him into support. before i believe malz had some absurd ap ratios. and his ults pool was a basic ability that did something like 106% of the enemies maximum health in magic damage if they stood in it for the entire duration. to put it into perspective prerework malz had so much damage he'd regularlly kill tanks like antimagic resist tanks like galio mundo without trying.

xDogMeatxDec 30, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=On My Kill List,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ekogzpyk,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2019-12-30T22:43:05.943+0000)

originally malz had incredibly burst before his rework which removed alot of his and shafted him into support. before i believe malz had some absurd ap ratios. and his ults pool was a basic ability that did something like 106% of the enemies maximum health in magic damage if they stood in it for the entire duration.

that sounded overloaded with torment.

On My Kill ListDec 30, 20192 votes

{quoted}

that sounded overloaded with torment.

no i mean his w/pool was probably one of the strongest basic abilities damage wise in league of legends history. it did over 100% of the enemies maximum health in magic damage. all you had to do was chain cc enemies in his pool and they'd basically die 9 times out of 10 or atleast lose half or more of their health. thats what his ult was for and allied cc. i kinda miss old malzahar he was alot more fun then low damage support malzahar of today. the problem is he was was very easy to gank and extremely immobile and had prohibitive mana costs. but he basically could take on anyone in a solo lane. i don't think malz had any real bad matchups because his damage was so high even in what would be bad matchups he could brute force his way through victory.

xDogMeatxDec 30, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=On My Kill List,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ekogzpyk,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-30T22:50:24.656+0000)

no i mean his w/pool was probably one of the strongest basic abilities damage wise in league of legends history. it did over 100% of the enemies maximum health in magic damage. all you had to do was chain cc enemies in his pool and they'd basically die 9 times out of 10 or atleast lose half or more of their health. thats what his ult was for and allied cc.

is this full build malz or half build?

On My Kill ListDec 30, 20191 votes

{quoted}

is this full build malz or half build?

half build. his old ap ratios were like 10x current. ap was also much easier to get in the past and we had higher ap amounts. champs could stack archangels and get like 1400 ap without trying so that helped too.(malzahar started going downhill when all the items he was balanced around kinda disappeared and kept being reworked,he was kinda never compensate properly by riot for alot of indrect changes he received from items he used so he didn't age well and he was just a niche fun pick mainly) all i remember was that his old pool did far more damage then all of malzahars current kit combined and then some.

DurzakaDec 31, 20191 votes

His old ratios were not THAT different.

The only real difference is his ult, from 130% ratio to an 80% ratio.

his Q went from 80% to 65%, and his E stayed the same.

His base damage got hit more than his ratios did.

RewtDec 30, 20192 votes

all build.

Malzahar's big problem was that he had 1 burst ability that was fairly difficult to land and then everything else was a Dot. He would Q you for half your HP, Pool below you, Malefic visions you, and Ult you. if he landed everything you generally died.

But you have to remember. We didn't have predator or electrocute. The old masteries were much weaker than todays runes, and runes were just flat stat bumps. so you have to watch out for if the opponent had +15-20 MR from runes and in that case, they would often survive a full combo and kill you in return.

Malzahar had to kill you in 1 burst or he was done. His cooldowns were very long and if you didn't die from the initial burst. He had nothing for like 5-6 seconds except for the 1 voidling that spawned from casting 4 spells.

xDogMeatxDec 30, 20191 votes

{quoted}

all build.

Malzahar's big problem was that he had 1 burst ability that was fairly difficult to land and then everything else was a Dot. He would Q you for half your HP, Pool below you, Malefic visions you, and Ult you. if he landed everything you generally died.

But you have to remember. We didn't have predator or electrocute. The old masteries were much weaker than todays runes, and runes were just flat stat bumps. so you have to watch out for if the opponent had +15-20 MR from runes and in that case, they would often survive a full combo and kill you in return.

Malzahar had to kill you in 1 burst or he was done. His cooldowns were very long and if you didn't die from the initial burst. He had nothing for like 5-6 seconds except for the 1 voidling that spawned from casting 4 spells.

thats interesting. imo THAT version of malz is alot more assassiny then this one.

AzurereaperDec 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

thats interesting. imo THAT version of malz is alot more assassiny then this one.

Not to mention his w was a strong zoning tool, to walk over it was to lose about 20% of your health.

LordGeovanniJan 1, 20201 votes

So we talking about Malzahar like he isnt doing what any standard mage does a fuck ton of damage on low cooldowns

hhaavviikkDec 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

is this full build malz or half build?

The pool on new malzahar's ult used to be his W and had a below a bad AP ratio and could deal allot of damage...the pool however lasted for about 5 seconds I thought meaning if you didn't ult the enemy no one would ever take much if any damage from his pool as they would just walk out of it, most of his damage came from his ult's high AP ratio and his voidlings, the reason he worked as an assassin was because if memory serves me right his ult had a 1.3 AP ratio, looking at some of his patch history I found the following:

R - Nether Grasp Malzahar suppresses a target champion for 2.5 seconds and creates a zone of negative energy around them that deals damage to all enemies inside for the duration. NULL ZONE DURATION : 5 seconds DAMAGE : [250/360/440] ⇒ 6/8/10% maximum health per second to all targets in the Null Zone RATIO : [1.3 ability power] ⇒ 1.5% of the target’s maximum health per 100 ability power, per second CAST TIME [0.25 seconds] ⇒ Removed that's when he got reworked, as you can see his ult had a high base damage with a high AP ratio,

Q DAMAGE : [80/135/190/245/300] ⇒ 70/110/150/190/230 RATIO : [0.8 ability power] ⇒ 0.7 ability power

W - Null Zone DAMAGE : [4/5/6/7/8% of target's maximum health] ⇒ 4/4.5/5/5.5/6% of target's maximum health Ability power ratio reduced to 1% per 100 ability power from 1% per 80 ability power

That was his last nerf to his pool, you always maxed pool last meaning untill lvl 12 your pool only dealt 4% of the targets max health in magic damage so without magic pen it isn't even that amazing

DurzakaDec 31, 20191 votes

his old W scaling was 6% max hp per second for 5 seconds, with a scaling of +1% per 100 AP. (at max level, obviously)

So even assuming 1000 AP ridiculous full build, that is only 80% max hp.

But again, a VERY unrealistic scenario. A more reasonable situation would be half that AP, meaning the pool would do at most 55% max hp.

It was nowhere near the most busted basic ability (I still think that shit goes to Veigars cage).

WTBeGirl100EUhrDec 31, 20191 votes

Back in the day 1000 AP was every game you hit full build.

DurzakaJan 2, 20201 votes

Full build was also 50 minutes in back in season 2.

My point still stands using a full build calculation is meaningless to try and show something power AND I debunked its power at the theoretical full build.

Yets4240Dec 31, 20191 votes

It was more "Total Magic Damage: 20 / 22.5 / 25 / 27.5 / 30% (+ 5% per 100 AP) of target's maximum health" with that being over 5 seconds. You would need 1520 AP to get 106%

2gudaiyaDec 30, 20193 votes

{quoted}

how is malz a assassin hes slow moving since a assassin is defined as fast moving/1000 dashes and why isnt jhin is that slot if malz can be in it. yes i know vayne is one also since she has stealth capacity.

dmg. an assassin does not need to move fast, simply kill quickly. and vayne doesn't get into the class for having stealth, she gets into it for her 3/2 shot potential. jhin is an artist, you cannot put him in a box.

La BarbotteDec 31, 20194 votes

its funny cause malzahar barely does any damage and he's missing an ability (rip W)

Pandemic PunchDec 31, 20192 votes

Thank you Malzahar old W

InfernapeDec 30, 20192 votes

Because the boards and the client uses the old champion subclasses. If a champion is listed as an "assassin" it pretty much meant they dealt a shitton of burst damage or were champions that are squishy but are mobile and deal a ton of sustained damage

QuZeed YTDec 31, 20191 votes

Aren't they doing the job of Zed better than him?

Beacon AcademyDec 31, 20191 votes

Malzahar Pre-Rework was the Assassin for Assassins

LB, Fizz, Yasuo, Zed, and other fast paced mid laners all used to have to watch out for him because he had the damage to force the lane to slow down to his own pace.

Not anymore though, as he now does ticklish damage during the laning phase

Voluug13Dec 31, 20191 votes

They intentionally labeled Malz as an ''assassin'' to excuse his rework. The irony is that he was an anti-assassin pick and now he is just a peel machine after midgame.

Skia AsteriDec 31, 20191 votes

Such tags are old as the champions they are on. Did you ever encounter pre-rework AP Tristana ?

voidscalerDec 31, 20191 votes

Sylas and pantheon when built assassiny (lethality/lich bane+moreello) do function as assassins So they make sense But the rest, yeah they aren't assassins at all

Caretaker JackDec 31, 20191 votes

Because their kits delete you.

Jennifer17Dec 31, 20191 votes

well for riven tryn sylas and pantheon it makes sense doesnt it? all 4 of these can kill you in 2 hits. with the sylas buffs that he gets next patch, he def. is an assassin.

malz and tristana... no fucking idea.

in a hood near uDec 31, 20191 votes

Look up AP trist montage

Jennifer17Dec 31, 20191 votes

outdated like ap yi.

M Dragon14Jan 2, 20201 votes

Trist plays like an assassin.

RyzeReworkDec 31, 20191 votes

I dont see malz but I can see the others because they have insane burst in a short period or time

McKuntaldsDec 31, 20191 votes

Who cares tbh , all champions are assassins now , just stack dmg

ReformedfindlayRJan 1, 20201 votes

Im sorry but if you see a tryndamere near late game he can basically insta shred anything regardless of how tanky it should be, except maybe a 10+ stack chogath or sion who has gotten past the 1k mark on his w.