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I personally have not many problems with Darius' design, except...

SaltyToplaneGoat·Jan 23, 2017·5 votes·1,083 views

... for this stupid random heal on Q.

Darius is a scary opponent to face, one who, if you make a mistake will totally crush you with his damage. However, that's how he has always been and that's not an issue: the counterplay to that: trade smart and get every chance of free harrass you can get, so he's too low to engage savely and you can actually CS.

But with this heal this only lane-weakness he had was completly thrown out. "Yeah but don't get hit by Q" - this pretty much means "give up on a shitton of CS, lane pressure and lose lane by default". And to all those who says "ganking him is counterplay too!" well, too bad that applies to every single champion there is. Most champs cannot fight a 1vs2 early in the game, especially when a redbuff is involved. If your only relevant counterplay is "ganks their sorry asses" then that's bad design. That was specifically one of the reasons Yorick was held in a perma-gutted state forever btw.

And on top of that the heal is a total thematic failure. Darius is no magic weapons user. He's no hemomancy user. Heck, he's the character who jumps into a fireball fight with an simple axe AND WINS. THAT'S who Darius is. He uses his axe for one thing: kill people with it. Not to heal himself or do any fancy gimmics. He has an axe and knows how to use it. That's all. And in the chaotic magic mess that is the character cast of this game at times, this is what makes him special.

As for the initial purpose of the heal... I am not sure why one of the most notorious lane-bullies in the game needs a buff on teamfighting. Either your champ excells at one thing ot the other, not at both, that's pretty unfair if you ask me...

47 Comments

AhristocatsJan 23, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EjhzmFEu,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-01-23T13:20:18.388+0000)

As for the initial purpose of the heal... I am not sure why one of the most notorious lane-bullies in the game needs a buff on teamfighting. Either your champ excells at one thing ot the other, not at both, that's pretty unfair if you ask me...

you should have played pre-rework darius then

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 23, 20172 votes

I did. Carried my ass out of bronze back in season 2 or 3. I traded my teamfight power for surpreme lane dominance. Yeah the magic damage passive was unfair, i admit that, but overall it was fair: I took my enemy out of the game until lategame, so my team could go a 4vs4 (+ me trying to help a bit).

However, Darius back then COULD be bullied out of lane through smart and aggressive play. That's not really the case anymore.

AhristocatsJan 23, 20173 votes

i'm not talking about season 2 and 3, i'm talking about end season 3 and after

because when they removed his reset they nerfed the only purpose to pick darius: bullying melees, he was no longer picked in lcs after and in non-competition he completly disappeared

Current darius is a lanebully against weak early game champions, he's a skill match up for other lane bully, where as before he would have auto-win the lane against every melee In exchange, he's finally relevant in teamfight which is a big word because he brings only one thing like before: damage, he's just able to do it right with his heal and his new passive

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 23, 20172 votes

The ult reset barely did anything to be honest, the cooldown was already half up the moment your enemy respwaned and carried his sorry ass back into lane. Then you waited a few seconds more for good measure and voila, start it all over again. This was barely a change in functionality apart from giving his enemies a small time window they couldn't get the full combo into their face, and "just" almost die to the basic ability combo.

The thing is tho: not all champs are lane bullies, but where they had been able to hold their ground against a Darius by using harrassment and smart trading, the moment Darius got sustain they couldn't even remotely compete anymore. Because even if youn trade good, you go to cs, get hit by a Q and all your damage has become undone. And you can't just go all in on Darius every time he winds his Q up - his passive will make sure you gonna draw the bad end of that deal, so much for sure.

He became relevant the moment his passive stacking changed to "all-stacks-at-once" when the conditions are right. The heal is just overkill and buffs his laning more than his teamfights.

AhristocatsJan 23, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EjhzmFEu,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-23T13:36:00.497+0000)

The ult reset barely did anything to be honest, the cooldown was already half up the moment your enemy respwaned and carried his sorry ass back into lane.

alright i can't talk then, at least in diamond 1 where i played he disappeared after his nerf and also disappeared in lcs which should say something

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 23, 20172 votes

Combine all for esports, all of challenger and diamond, and you maybe have 2% of the playerbase, if not less.

Obviously a melee with no dash and no tank steroid would be less player in highly coordinated play where junglers and prfoessional roamers just wait for a target like that. However, professional coodrinated play is the EXCEPTION and not the rule, and should be treated as such. Esports and stuff is funny to have, but not the end and purpose of all things, and the recent changes with that in focus just have negative effects - or are you keen on keeping the tower firstblood for example?

AhristocatsJan 23, 20173 votes

the rework was here to make him less dominating in low elo, and more usefull in high elo why the hell aren't you understanding this?

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 23, 20172 votes

He can NEVER be useful in high elo, he lacks the mobility and tankyness for it. At leats not the current state the game is in, focussed on moblity and ranged high damage.

And now he is STILL dominating at low elo, maybe in a slightly different way than before.

So both targets have been failed to achieve I'd say, making the change an effective failure in all regards.

RexSaurJan 23, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EjhzmFEu,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-23T13:49:29.203+0000)

He can NEVER be useful in high elo, he lacks the mobility and tankyness for it. At leats not the current state the game is in, focussed on moblity and ranged high damage.

And now he is STILL dominating at low elo, maybe in a slightly different way than before.

So both targets have been failed to achieve I'd say, making the change an effective failure in all regards.

Except he is actually good at high elo now.

Hes one of the most played top laners atm, hes literally meta.

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 23, 20172 votes

Meta circles in and out... and tbh do I even want champions to be good at high level play? I remember times when you had Lee Sin jungle vs Xin Zhao jungle every single game. All champs should be somewhat DECENT at the highest level of play, but not STRONG, as that would be the ultimate balance goal. But like this? Eh not really.

AhristocatsJan 23, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EjhzmFEu,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-23T13:49:29.203+0000)

He can NEVER be useful in high elo, he lacks the mobility and tankyness for it. At leats not the current

L M A O

oh my fucking god, i must be a miracle for having 61% win rate on 80 games with him

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 23, 20172 votes

Yes, and I am sure there is somewhere a pro who makes AD Sona toplane work. Still not a good idea to pick it, no? I mean you can try, have fun getting flamed by your team no matter if you lose or win at least.

AhristocatsJan 23, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EjhzmFEu,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-01-23T13:53:47.097+0000)

Yes, and I am sure there is somewhere a pro who makes AD Sona toplane work

Nop

vOmvbrawfUJan 23, 20171 votes

You should try Tanklesticks. Best thing in League of Legends.

doublelift fgJan 23, 20171 votes

yea wait, imma tell every darius to stop picking darius now above d2

DarkPh0enixJan 23, 20171 votes

You picked old Garen and rekt him.

AthenasVendettaJan 23, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EjhzmFEu,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-01-23T13:27:26.438+0000)

I did. Carried my ass out of bronze back in season 2 or 3. I traded my teamfight power for surpreme lane dominance. Yeah the magic damage passive was unfair, i admit that, but overall it was fair: I took my enemy out of the game until lategame, so my team could go a 4vs4 (+ me trying to help a bit).

However, Darius back then COULD be bullied out of lane through smart and aggressive play. That's not really the case anymore.

It was not even close to fair even with the magic dot. You had a insta cast burst(depending on build) 210-500+ damage plus the dot. Those were the days of Crit Darius where he would walk up and W a carry for 3.2K. He wasn't fair at all.

VelvetCrotchJan 23, 20173 votes

He is one of the most kite-able champs in LoL. They changed his stacks that he need to get the stacks on his target to do dmg. (Ofc it's much if he does but otherwise he don't do less than old Darius imo)

And cause he has no gap closer and his E got fixed (it's now less random but a lil hit smaller) he is in need of more survivability.

Hope I helped.

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 23, 20172 votes

The thing is how do you kite as a melee toplaner?

VelvetCrotchJan 23, 20171 votes

Poke? Dash? U know what this is? ;-)

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 23, 20171 votes

Sion

No.

RalanrJan 23, 20173 votes

Darius is a bad match up for Sion, but Sion has the ability to just poke Darius with his E while farming.

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 23, 20171 votes

The damage of E is abyssimal, and I say that as a Rank 7 Sion.

Usually for early fights you max Q first, E a minion into him and charge Q, hoping he's too slow on reflexes to use his pull, or wait until he has wasted it. Only a decently charged Q followed by a W bomb has enough damage to be a relevant threat that cannot be outhealed by a hit from Darius' Q.

Also Sion maxing E first is pretty much a joke unless you play AP Sion from my experience.

I have beaten Darius players with Sion and I have been killed by them. My issue is not the champ being brokenly OP, but that aspect of him being highly problematic from an aestetic and a game health point of view.

RalanrJan 23, 20172 votes

In my experience you only max Q if you can reliably hit it against your opponent. With Darius it's too risky because he's most likely going to save his E for your Q.

It's abysmal when fighting Darius sure, but not when it comes to farming. Usually you don't fight Darius in lane, you just survive him.

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 23, 20171 votes

No, you CAN fight him. If you are smart. A Darius falling behind is so helplessly useless, that's a chance I'm not gonna miss.

No, you always max Q, for a reliable hit you have your E. Unless you play vs Riven, then you need to do a lot more baiting and use the Q for ranged poke without the stun. It slices for quite a bit on squishies like Riven tbh.

RalanrJan 23, 20171 votes

TBH everything Sion does hurts squishies a lot.

ZephyrDrakeJan 23, 20172 votes

it's called not get hit by the tip of his Q. You see him winding up for it then APPROACH HIM! if you cannot get away from Q range then get close to him and watch as he does pitiful damage AND don't heal from his Q

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 23, 20172 votes

And you walked into his basic attack range, maybe you have not even all your abilities up from the last trade, say hello to blood stacks and noxian rage lol.

ZephyrDrakeJan 23, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EjhzmFEu,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-01-23T13:46:53.844+0000)

And you walked into his basic attack range, maybe you have not even all your abilities up from the last trade, say hello to blood stacks and noxian rage lol.

well it's either let him deal a bunch of damage to you and have him get healed or actually go towards him. It doesn't matter if you are by his auto range you are going to lose even more horribly if you just try to run away from him. But that's up to you. What would you rather do? have him heal and chunk you with just his Q or have him not do that and then walk away from him

fuffychanJan 23, 20171 votes

hey guys guys I found a secret cheat hack to beat Darius just run in his melee range nd he cant heal nd u dstroy him!!1@

ZephyrDrakeJan 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

hey guys guys I found a secret cheat hack to beat Darius just run in his melee range nd he cant heal nd u dstroy him!!1@

hey guys i cannot think so he must be broken! please rito nerf him because he is too much for my babu brain!

DarkPh0enixJan 23, 20172 votes

Every Juggernaut is supposed to have in-fight sustain (except Garen which has been given an out of combat sustain for some fucking reason).

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 23, 20172 votes

Dunno, but if you want to buff his teamfights, who not a shield? Then he can't sustain for free when harrassing in lane, and still survive teamfights.

RalanrJan 23, 20171 votes

So instead of a heal on his Q you want a spammable shield from it?

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 23, 20171 votes

Yeah, does the same job (making him tanky in teamfights) but is no oppressive in lane (no heal).

Preferably I wouldn't even want a shield for thematic reasons I mentioned in the op, but if there HAS to be something, a shield would be a lot healthier than the heal.

RalanrJan 23, 20172 votes

Considering how CoTC and Locket have been influencing the meta, I may have to disagree.

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 23, 20171 votes

Not really, the problem with both are their unique mechanisms: Locket is a massive AoE shield... so it's potential total value (5 man locket) is insane to the point where it outscales every other possible shield of a champion, save for Karma E Ult.

CotC brings shields into kits where they don't really belong, especially into the hard to balance diver-class.

It's not the shields by themselves that are bad, it is their potential power and who has access to it.

RalanrJan 23, 20171 votes

And Darius has access to CoTC, which means he'll not only have shield spam, but shield stacking as well.

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 23, 20172 votes

He would have to trade Grasp or another keystone mastery for something that only goes on his E pull, something mostly used in 1vs1 situations that can barely bring out the full potential of the mastery. Him using CotC is not exactly an issue tbh.

AthenasVendettaJan 23, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EjhzmFEu,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-01-23T13:46:10.415+0000)

Dunno, but if you want to buff his teamfights, who not a shield? Then he can't sustain for free when harrassing in lane, and still survive teamfights.

If you can land the axe blade the heal works fine in lane and for ganks and is damn frustrating when it does happen to a jungler.... because it goes "Double Kill!"

RalanrJan 23, 20171 votes

Think of the heal as a second wind of some sort. To keep him going in fights.

Without the sustain he'd be poor in teamfights.

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 23, 20172 votes

Then make it a temporary shield or something, not a permanent heal. A second wind is an adrenaline rush that makes you immune to pain, thematically speaking. It doesn't miraculously heal your wounds. A shield is still useful in teamfights (especially if it scales of the number of targets hit), but wouldn't be so oppressive in lane.

And if he is poor in teamfights, so what? Not all champions can be surpreme in all fields, that's in the nature of things.

RalanrJan 23, 20172 votes

The thing is that he was reworked to be better in teamfights. He's the teamfight juggernaut.

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 23, 20172 votes

I wonder why a champ who is supposed to be the "teamfight juggernaut" then is one of the most oppressive lanebullies in the game then? Isn't that a bit overkill?

RalanrJan 23, 20171 votes

A bit. Honestly it's not even the heal that makes him that oppressive imo. It's the bleed passive that really makes you not want to trade with him at all.

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 23, 20171 votes

The heal is adding a whole lot to it tho. The bleed passive is what Darius is: dangerous damage in prolonged engages. That's the one thing he's good at, and champions should have a niche in which they excel - but the added sustain to it makes for a rather nasty combo that is not exactly healthy.

ChaddyFantomeJan 23, 20171 votes

I think the thematic behind it is that he literally thrives on the carnage of the fight as he decimates his foes on the battle field.

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