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Armor pen is a problem

Jefftiffy··6 votes·654 views

Apparently, people have figured out that yet again, there is no counter play to stacking armor pen. I don't know why everyone denies it, and then this happens at the end of the season. This is probably one of the worst seasons seeing as there is so many more items that have it now.

Why haven't we just finally went around and said, when building multiple items with armor pen, the more effective value counts. It trims down some of the excess power on say building item 3142 item 3071 item 3036 item 3033 item 3156. So if your flat 30 is going to yield more than 45% bonus armor you take the flat 30.

At the same time I really want item 3071 to shred your armor by a flat amount. maybe make it 2/3/4/5 armor per stack. (the upgrades being 6/11/16)

Although I really don't agree with the existance of item 3036. Armor pen already counters building armor. Throwing in the damage for building HP on the same item seems like you just remove any and all counter build potential. I feel like it crowds out tanks so hard. But this isn't the point of this thread.

29 Comments

oSEXYPLATYPUSo3 votes

IF THEY STACK ARMOR PEN TO COUNTER YOUR ARMOR , STACK HP CUZ ARMOR PEN DONT EFFECT HP

Jefftiffy4 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EgzhlEnN,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-10-16T01:34:53.157+0000)

IF THEY STACK ARMOR PEN TO COUNTER YOUR ARMOR , STACK HP CUZ ARMOR PEN DONT EFFECT HP

item 3036.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

THAT CAPS ON HOW MUCH BONUS DAMAGE IT DOES BASED OF HP

Lovelle1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EgzhlEnN,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-10-16T01:34:53.157+0000)

IF THEY STACK ARMOR PEN TO COUNTER YOUR ARMOR , STACK HP CUZ ARMOR PEN DONT EFFECT HP

Too much %hp damage is in the game now to reliably stack hp and survive. Everyone has access to it and not even Mundo can get away with it. This isn't season 3 anymore.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

lets name the items that give % hp damage .....

ill wait

Lovelle1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EgzhlEnN,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2016-10-16T16:24:10.216+0000)

lets name the items that give % hp damage .....

ill wait

Botrk and Liandry's.

Offensive masteries increase dmg based on missing hp, many champions have innate %hp damage in their kits. The best tank masteries are sub-par at mitigating damage or % scaling with resistances, etc.

Offensive itemization scales multiplicatively, while defensive itemization has diminishing returns.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

so you named two...

how many items can you get that stack hp ?

PhDs Nuts4 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EgzhlEnN,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-16T16:30:53.587+0000)

so you named two...

how many items can you get that stack hp ?

That's... not how that works. %HP doesn't care how many HP items you have. You only need one %HP item to get max effectiveness for %HP damage. Then you just need pen again.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

ahh but if you have more hp then you can sustain more damage

PhDs Nuts1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EgzhlEnN,comment-id=0000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-16T16:33:47.116+0000)

ahh but if you have more hp then you can sustain more damage

Not if it's a percentage. %HP scales with HP. 10% HP damage will always deal 10% of your HP, regardless of how much HP you have.

If it's %MaxHP physical damage, the same amount of attacks will always kill you if you don't build more armor.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

but if you have more HP then you can still take more damage .... if you have 1000 hp and you get hit for 100 hp that is more significant then having 4000 hp and getting hit for 400

PhDs Nuts1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EgzhlEnN,comment-id=000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-16T16:44:08.030+0000)

but if you have more HP then you can still take more damage .... if you have 1000 hp and you get hit for 100 hp that is more significant then having 4000 hp and getting hit for 400

No it isn't. It's literally the same if the only person attacking you is the one doing % damage. It's only more significant when you start talking about the flat damage they do with other abilities (not applicable to Vayne), or if their teammates are attacking you at the same time.

The %HP damage doesn't care.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

with 4000 hp you sustain and tank moer damage then some one with 1000 hp

and any argument other wise is stupid and unfounded

PhDs Nuts1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EgzhlEnN,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-16T16:47:55.319+0000)

with 4000 hp you sustain and tank moer damage then some one with 1000 hp

and any argument other wise is stupid and unfounded

Not if the damage is percentage based. If one attack does 50% of your HP, how many attacks will it take to kill you? Does it matter how much HP you have? The same answer applies if it's 3%.

Building more HP does nothing for % damage.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

no attack does 50% of your hp

PhDs Nuts1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EgzhlEnN,comment-id=0000000100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-16T16:49:58.693+0000)

no attack does 50% of your hp

That's why I added "The same answer applies if it's 3%."

Though if you want to be "that guy", AP Varus can do 50% HP magic damage.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

but if you get mr to go with your hp then the damage isnt as much it is reduced

PhDs Nuts1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EgzhlEnN,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2016-10-16T16:53:04.863+0000)

but if you get mr to go with your hp then the damage isnt as much it is reduced

That's the whole point.................. [slayer-jinx-unamused]

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

and my point as to the OP if they are stacking armor pen if you stack hp the armor pen dont effect the HP but you wanted to go down this tangent

and if you have more HP you sustain more damage... and chances are to get upwards of 3000+ hp or more you get items liek warmogs... which increases your hp regen so you sustain more damage cuz of the enhanced regen you get from the item and other items as well

PhDs Nuts1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EgzhlEnN,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000003,timestamp=2016-10-16T16:56:02.605+0000)

and my point as to the OP if they are stacking armor pen if you stack hp the armor pen dont effect the HP but you wanted to go down this tangent

and if you have more HP you sustain more damage... and chances are to get upwards of 3000+ hp or more you get items liek warmogs... which increases your hp regen so you sustain more damage cuz of the enhanced regen you get from the item and other items as well

Yes, but this all started when you said there are only 2 item options for %HP damage (one for each damage type), and many options for more HP.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

cuz there is .... its all a game of rock paper scissors for anything you build for or against you leave and expose weakness on the other side of it... so its a matter of what trumps what at that moment in that game...

if you wanna go full ap and magic pen.... ill go more hp and all MR

if you wanna be pure ad and armor pen i can go full hp and armor and have ways to out sustain...

it goes round and round

jsut like champs in meta

adcs are strong we buff assassins , assassins are strong then people pick tanky cc champs and the tank meta comes and then when people cry about that the the sustain damage,dps ( adcs come back ) it just goes round and round

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

hell one might say if you have 4000 hp vs 1000 hp you are most likely sustain 4 times the amount of damage

Weathered1 votes

Apen is being reworked during the assassin rework, take a chill pill for now.

Lovelle1 votes

{quoted}

Apen is being reworked during the assassin rework, take a chill pill for now.

Riot has said this for years and has never once gotten it right. You'll have to forgive me if I seem a bit skeptical.

Astôlfo1 votes

I'm just glad that apparently some of the armorpen items are being made melee-only if I remember correctly. But to be honest, all armorpen items except LW and its evolutions should be melee only. Ranged were never meant to abuse long range armorpen.

Jefftiffy1 votes

{quoted}

I'm just glad that apparently some of the armorpen items are being made melee-only if I remember correctly. But to be honest, all armorpen items except LW and its evolutions should be melee only. Ranged were never meant to abuse long range armorpen.

But making them melee only doesn't solve the problems. The problem is stacking them. ADC's aren't the only one's abusing them. And what happens to people like Jayce. How do you determine when they are allowed to buy them and when they are allowed to go off.

The problem with armor pen has always been stacking it. Building HP doesn't always been armor pen. Building HP counters burst. And as long as both burst and armor pen have ways to get % hp damage then you can never actually counter build armor pen.

Astôlfo1 votes

I didn't say ADCs. I said ranged. Ranged champions are the only ones abusing them.

Jayce will simply lose all armorpen not granted by Last Whisper or one of its evolutions on any ranged AA and/or abilities, as will all other ranged AAs and/or abilities (depending). He can still fully utilize it with his melee attacks/abilities.

Kingopants1 votes

The last whisper items are stupid strong I always cry a little when I don't see people build them. I know it doesn't affect base armour but the 45% bonus armour pen on its own is so much.

For any arbrity tank like garen late game he might have around 180 bonus armour so he last whisper grants 81 armour pen which is a lot of pen.

For a armour specific tank like malphite, late game he might have over 400 bonus armour (as seen by his builds on champion.gg plus his passives, masteries and runes) So the last whisper itself grants like 180 armour pen. Which is frigging 9 yommus worth.

Hell if you have battering blows, someone on your team gets cleaver and you buy the last whisper item 64.2% of someones bonus armour gets ignored. Thats right poor maphite there just lost 267 armour. If you include ignoring of his base armour from cleaver and battering blows he lost around 289 armour late game. Thats 5,778 gold in stats from 2 items and a mastery.

Change in effective health is the important part for DPS champions though and since effective heath scales linearly with armour so its just Change in effect HP=HP*armour/100. If malphite had 3,800 HP it reduced his effective HP (flat physical damage he could tank) by ~11,000

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

item 3071 make it melee only or half effective with ranged users

Problem solved.

Arpen doesnt break assassins or juggernauts, it literally is only exclusively broken by ranged abusers.

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