As a Support Main - A HARD HELL NO

Oleandervine··78 votes·3,296 views

Riot, I get that you want to balance the game, I really do. But removing the tier 3 support items in lieu of making everything a Sightstone is not how to do it.

Simply put, Sightstone is not satisfying. It never was and it never will be.

Therefore, making me as a Taric main give up the hella good shield for myself and that incredible clutch shield for my allies to basically always make Eye of the Mountain feels like complete and utter dogshit. Face of the Mountain is a satisfying item. You felt like you achieved something by finishing the quest, and the active is so beneficial for many supports and their ADCs. It was a mini "oh shit" button that was one of the very few shields that was never abused. Removing such a satisfying item is just utter garbage, and I hate it. I wanted to have the extra shielding as a tank support, and no amount of Knights Vows or Zeke's Harbingers will have the satisfying thud that Face of the Mountain has.

This same holds true for Frost Queen's Claim and Talisman of Ascension too, but I was honestly more likely to pick the Eyes over those items in most builds because of the versatility an extra item adds on an enchanter.

My recommendation if you must remove Tier 3 support items - bring ALL of the actives back, not just FQC and ToA. Hell, rework Banner of Command or Ohmwrecker into a version of the live Face of the Mountain. Both of those items are utter garbage anyway, and no one picks them because of literally every other tank that exists. But overall, I think it's a very terrible mistake to remove Tier 3 support items because you want to give out Sightstones. Just make the yellow trinket have an upgrade into a Sightstone if you have a Tier 2 item - make it do a brief reveal of wards near where it's placed when you drop a ward or something so you don't lose the red trinket. Just do anything else other than remove the most satisfying part of support gameplay.

88 Comments

Sailor Mint20 votes

Shurelya's Reverie and Twin Shadows are unique actives that have been in the game for a very long time.

FotM has always been budget Locket and doesn't make any sense as a standalone item.

Oleandervine5 votes

It does if you factor in the personal passive shield as part of the item.

Kubox5 votes

The passive shield is somewhat made up for by letting you rush your first item more easily. You don't have to upgrade it to eye yet, you only need tier 2's quest to complete to turn it into a Sightstone, afterwhich you can buy w/e you want. An early Aegis or even Glacial Shroud should make a lot of tank supports pretty darn tough, especially if the Aftershock changes come through too (100 armor/mr, 20 less damage)

I feel if any support was gonna complain, it's the Spellthief users : That movespeed boost came in clutch time and time again and I hope they bring it back somehow.

Oleandervine13 votes

The majority of tank supports need the HP from the FOTM than they need the armor and MR from items they are already going to be building anyway. HP is surprisingly lacking in most decent support items, most of it is armor and MR, which is terrible because having all these resistances is useless without the HP to back it.

Kubox7 votes

That's still something that's far from the Face of the Mountain issue though. A small HP shield can be replaced with more resists. And If tank supports are lacking in the HP departement, they can still make a new item that will feel good to rush on them that satisfy that need.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be worried, but Face has never felt like a proper item to me. Frost Queen can be used to setup kills or scout, Talisman to engage or escape, but face has always just been an item I only get if I feel I need the shield now rather than wait for Locket.

Imo, this is a great opportunity to give tank supports a proper item to rush that suits their need. I sure am sick of stacking shields and resists, give me a proper item that'll feel skillful to use.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

Thank you for being the only other calm and reasonable support player I've seen in the last 24 hours. No one else I've seen has seemed to realize the potential items we can build in lane with this change.

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

But at what cost? Bot lane is about to power spike 800 gold sooner in a meta where ADCs are already powerspiking too early, is that hit to game pacing worth it? Can you really say that this change is good for game health?

SpecterVonBaren4 votes

I guess to me if bot lane spikes even harder then Riot can't possibly continue to ignore the current snowballyness of the game. Though I'm probably just delusional on this and am just going to see the world burn.

AMYS GRAVE3 votes

Never underestimate the power of willful ignorance.

BLACK REALM GOD2 votes

skillful? so... an active item?

LordGeovanni1 votes

the face of the mountain shield isnt for the support is to peel for adc which i didnt do anyway

Kubox1 votes

You're taking stuff out of context. Someone called Face a budget Locket, OP brought up how the passive shield helps tank supports. I simply said a small, passive shield can easily be made up for.

Anything else, like Face's niche for being slightly better than Locket vs Assassins, is a discussion for another day/thread.

LordGeovanni1 votes

You say that the passive sheild can be made up for but that is not true unless you magically get one more item slot and no one else gets it. so that you can build your normal build and get something to make up for the loss of the shield. or support items have to get raw stat buffs which will never happen

Kubox2 votes

....

You are getting one more item slot. That item slot is called "Not having Face of The Mountain as an item".

LordGeovanni1 votes

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/once%20more by not having face of the mountain you already have to replace face of the mountains stats. you need one more after replacing face of the mountain's stats to cover the loss of either 1 of the items 2 sheilds

Häxel2 votes

Does the majority of Tanksupports realy need the 500 health of RubySightstone + 450 health of FotM? Cause it kinda looks strange that the majority of Pros used the combination, Eye of the Equinox (you can look up at Probuilds). Ok, item 2303 + item 3190 + item 3109 are the 3 main items, which give 750 health, 70 armor, 60 mr, 20% cdr and 200% healthreg. This will continue as the new tier 3 targonitem, currently called "Remnant of the Eternal" on pbe, will ahve the same stats as the eye cause it is a combiantion out of targons brace and a ruby crystal. Farther itemchoices we have: item 3800 for Aggresive Tank Supports like Alistar , Blitzcrank , Leona , Nautilus : 400 health, 30 armor, 100% health reg, ... item 3050 for catchers/peel supports like Blitzcrank , Nautilus , Taric , Thresh : 60 armor, 30mr, ... item 3107 for Defensive Tank Supports like Braum , TahmKench , Taric , Thresh : 200 health, 50% health reg, ...

Farther Item choices, more specific or extrem niche: item 3504 (Taric), item 3083 (Leona), item 3060 , item 3512 , item 3110 , item 3025 , item 3001 , item 3194 , item 3193 . I believe there are some choices here giving some or a lot of health (warmogs and gargyoels active especialy) and the Zekes user may not get health from that item, but you can split them up to Glory/Redemption as well where they get health.

Don't forget that Froost Queens and Talisman actives have a chance to return as non Gold items (twin shadows/shurelyas), probably designed or at least good too for supports as well. And Talisman/Shurelyas could be another healthcoice.

LordGeovanni1 votes

The spelltheif movment speed was pretty bs and idk how the let ranged mages with heavy cc get extra movemnt speed when the Coin line was supposed to deal with movement speed.

Kubox2 votes

Might be. Then again, item 3044 exists.

Spellthief users are all pretty squishy and that speed boost was very often the only reason I survived many situations, so I'd like to see it return. It's not impossible to balance either. If it's about not making it abusive on mages, the stats can be tweaked that way : 50ish AP, 10 cdr, give it the twin shadows active but only make it possible to cast when near(ish) an ally.

I also don't feel like it was something Coin should have done. By it's nature as a tool for enchanters but also the only tool for mage supports, Spellthief needed to offer a more selfish advantage, which is why it only affects the player. Coin suits supports that depend on their team, so the movespeed boost to allies, while hidden power and I'd prefer something else, suited it more.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Lets pretend that long range champions with high damage cc need help getting away with % movement speed speed boost with no cooldown on the same item that slows enemies with an active. that might be comparable if the passive from item 3044 was on the same item as the passive from item 3022 while having 60 ad 200 hp and 10% cdr and even then it doesnt account for the saftey and range that those champions have. Ranged characters are inherently safe phage was made to combat that giving them their own phage but with far more movement speed more than negates that and phage items shouldnt even be a must buy in the first place.

CHODES AND LOADS2 votes

the only thing they even have in common is a shield, they literally dont even give any of the same stats how tf u gonna compare solari and fotm

half the time i build both the MFers anyway. finish fotm while its still early and there arent a lot of 5v5 going on, use it on the adc im tagging along with, build locket when i hit the point that i start to need a group shield

this rhetoric that fotm is supposed to fill the same itemization sspace as locket is fucking idiotic

Cavesloth12 votes

They just want to make the game easier for casuals, at the expense of build diversity and fun.

Daedric Etwahl10 votes

Cater to the autofilled "supports" who bitch about buying sightstone while just not even considering how this feels for ACTUAL support mains.

Ariel the Cruel3 votes

Glad I jumped ship to TT a season ago. This one is at least sinking a little slower.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Eg1an7FY,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-01-11T12:02:41.116+0000)

Glad I jumped ship to TT a season ago. This one is at least sinking a little slower.

Maybe I should follow suite or simply transition exclusively to Midlaner and learn to jungle on the side. :/ Ivern doesn't have to put up with this shit and he's a supporty champ. Maybe i can adjust. :/

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Ivern. The only jungler that can gank bot at level 1. Then gank mid at level 3 15 seconds later. XD Just beware of Rengar. He'll follow you between games like a field of catnip. (I'm really unlucky with my Ivern games.)

But come on over to the isles. The water is dead cold fine!

FridgesArePpl23 votes

build diversity = literally every support having to build the exact same item?

ok

Daedric Etwahl3 votes

It wasn't the most diverse, but this is even worse about it.

How can you consider this an improvement to diversity when they are literally REMOVING FOUR unique items, and three unique passives from the support tree?

Before you could choose what support item you wanted, taking into account not just the stats and how you earn your gold, but also your gold quest passive, and the possibility of your Tier 3 active item.

You could choose when you wanted your Sightstone. Do you need it NOW, or can you put it off for a while and stock up on Reds? When you do pick it up, do you want to combine it into the Eye for that extra item slot? Or do you want to upgrade to RSS, which synergizes with the T3 active you'll be building?

Now, all of that is going away, and instead we're getting three dull items that do almost the same thing as each other. They took away any excitement of completing your gold quest, and in the process took away your choice of when you want your Sightstone.

As a Sona player, yeah the 400g is nice, but it comes at the cost of losing out on the Spellthief's quest reward (which has saved me more times than can be counted)

When I played anyone else as support, I always ended up buying the active item and RSS, whether it was FQC, FotM, or ToA. But now that's all going away, and now I'll be forced to buy the Eye on every champion I play as support, and I don't even get the good quest reward passives.

We get 400g to spend, sure, but it's not worth what they're taking from us.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Daedric Etwahl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Eg1an7FY,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2018-01-11T18:50:05.075+0000)

It wasn't the most diverse, but this is even worse about it.

How can you consider this an improvement to diversity when they are literally REMOVING FOUR unique items, and three unique passives from the support tree?

Before you could choose what support item you wanted, taking into account not just the stats and how you earn your gold, but also your gold quest passive, and the possibility of your Tier 3 active item.

You could choose when you wanted your Sightstone. Do you need it NOW, or can you put it off for a while and stock up on Reds? When you do pick it up, do you want to combine it into the Eye for that extra item slot? Or do you want to upgrade to RSS, which synergizes with the T3 active you'll be building?

Now, all of that is going away, and instead we're getting three dull items that do almost the same thing as each other. They took away any excitement of completing your gold quest, and in the process took away your choice of when you want your Sightstone.

As a Sona player, yeah the 400g is nice, but it comes at the cost of losing out on the Spellthief's quest reward (which has saved me more times than can be counted)

When I played anyone else as support, I always ended up buying the active item and RSS, whether it was FQC, FotM, or ToA. But now that's all going away, and now I'll be forced to buy the Eye on every champion I play as support, and I don't even get the good quest reward passives.

We get 400g to spend, sure, but it's not worth what they're taking from us.

Finally, someone gets it! This expresses my problems perfectly.

Cavesloth2 votes

{quoted}

build diversity = literally every support having to build the exact same item?

ok

Yes, that's what "at the expense of build diversity means". Look at OP.GG at the plat+ builds for the same kind of support, tank, enchanter, mage, etc. Almost no 2 build exactly the same especially for the first item. They might have things that are core that they all build (most enchanters still build Ardent and Redemption of course), but there is flexibility... for now.

ChaddyFantome10 votes

#SaveSuppportQuestBuffs.

Friendly Ram9 votes

I'm more bummed about losing ruby ss.

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

A Rioter did say they were looking into adding an item with the active item cdr. I think it would be a nice thing if they had that as a unique passive for the new tier 3 gold gen items.

Eedat7 votes

Simply put, Sightstone is not satisfying. It never was and it never will be.

Which is why theyre moving it directly into the support item so you don't have to buy one anymore

Oleandervine12 votes

The whole thing is contradictory because you STILL have buy it by upgrading the Tier 2 support item to Tier 3 with a Ruby Crystal. PLUS, you LOSE the old Tier 3 items COMPLETELY so that they can give you a Sightstone. This isn't an upgrade. This is a flat out farce.

Edit: So a small mistake, you get it on Tier 2. However, that still doesn't mean that Tier 3 items are now worthless as hell without anything special other than being Eye of the ____. Why even waste gold to go up to 3 now?

The Blue Rajah7 votes

That’s wrong by the way. You shouldn’t spread misinformation. You get the Sightstone active at tier two. Upgrading to tier three will only let you carry four wards instead of three, plus give a little stats to keep it slot efficient if the game goes late.

Dorans Pants6 votes

can´t wait for it to go full circle** if** they reintroduce the actives and quest rewards.

i could then finish my eye of the whatever 800g earlier and REINVEST this gold into my next item that has the same effects my support item used to have accomplishing nothing.

way to go riot.

Tibold4 votes

I want to complain about this to hell, but I written many essays already on threads like these. One thing I can write again: WHY RIOT?

Sõna2 votes

As I am a Support "Player" ( I don't like to call myself as xxx main),

Riot tried to make us to accommodate the new meta that they are going to make instead of old-style heal/shield botlane. That is why you see more damage now. If you are truly a support MAIN, how could you not able to cope with change of support when the time redemption was introduced and ardent cencer meta broke the game? how about the other role who wasn't able to complaint like DPS Jungle back at the day? Where were you when those things becoming broken in World stages? In fact, it can be ONE of the good change considering the item might be cheaper, vision and sightstone is promised.

marpatt113 votes

{quoted}

As I am a Support "Player" ( I don't like to call myself as xxx main),

Riot tried to make us to accommodate the new meta that they are going to make instead of old-style heal/shield botlane. That is why you see more damage now. If you are truly a support MAIN, how could you not able to cope with change of support when the time redemption was introduced and ardent cencer meta broke the game? how about the other role who wasn't able to complaint like DPS Jungle back at the day? Where were you when those things becoming broken in World stages? In fact, it can be ONE of the good change considering the item might be cheaper, vision and sightstone is promised.

looks at name I don't think you have to.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

As I am a Support "Player" ( I don't like to call myself as xxx main),

Riot tried to make us to accommodate the new meta that they are going to make instead of old-style heal/shield botlane. That is why you see more damage now. If you are truly a support MAIN, how could you not able to cope with change of support when the time redemption was introduced and ardent cencer meta broke the game? how about the other role who wasn't able to complaint like DPS Jungle back at the day? Where were you when those things becoming broken in World stages? In fact, it can be ONE of the good change considering the item might be cheaper, vision and sightstone is promised.

Because this is not the same thing. This isn't about the "strength or balance " of the role or even the classes within it. These changes are problematic because they have negative effects on how enjoyable and satisfying the role actually is.

The net result is that you now have less options as to how you upgrade your starter items, picking one is less meaningful than it already barely was, and now instead of playing a fun micro game for unique buffs exclusive to the role, you do so for permission to ward instead. it's stupid and does nothing to help the role actually be fun and engaging. it does the opposite and that isn't good for anyone.

Sõna2 votes

Agree with your point Chaddy, it could be both from different personal perspective. I hope they bring back the active.

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

Simply put, Sightstone is not satisfying. It never was and it never will be.

I'll have to disagree with you here. Getting deep vision and knowing where the enemy jungler is at all times shuts them down hard, and that feels very very good.

Jonathan Comets3 votes

you're still getting wards with the out of your gold income item now. It works like the quest item Targons has now. Once gold income item generates 500 gold it upgrades allowing you to use wards. Until then you rely on trinket and control wards.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

I'll have to disagree with you here. Getting deep vision and knowing where the enemy jungler is at all times shuts them down hard, and that feels very very good.

you don't need Sightstone for that tho.

Sightstone doesn't have a monopoly on vision. its just the best item in the game for it.

Sightstone wasn't what was satisfying. the vision play you made was.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Without sightstone i can't make the frequent vision plays i used to make. Trinkets uptime average is 33% of one ward early game, that is nowhere near the impact needed to make a meaningful vision play.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Without sightstone i can't make the frequent vision plays i used to make. Trinkets uptime average is 33% of one ward early game, that is nowhere near the impact needed to make a meaningful vision play.

I understand that. My point is that you are conflating the satisfaction of vision and vision play with Sightstone, which is largely just an enabler/middleman in the equation.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

In this case without the enabler the play can't be made at all. The play at its core requires the uptime of sightstone to even be possible. If you're invading the enemy jungle to drop wards then if the uptime of those wards is <1.0 then you are always invading blind and the risk in making the play undergoes a first order transition.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

In this case without the enabler the play can't be made at all. The play at its core requires the uptime of sightstone to even be possible. If you're invading the enemy jungle to drop wards then if the uptime of those wards is <1.0 then you are always invading blind and the risk in making the play undergoes a first order transition.

You are missing the point tho. Sightstone isn't the only source of wards nor does it have a monopoly on it. The other sources can be manipulated and tweaked to properly give you what you get out the vision game. Sightstone doesn't own that.

Sightstone itself doesn't actually give you anything.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

There is a threshold of ward uptime that makes this play possible though. If you don't have a ward down you can't safely repeatedly invade, and trinket wards don't have enough uptime. Deep placed pink wards don't naturally die, you can only place one, and don't need replacing, so they don't serve this function. Blue wards are unavailable at this stage of the game anyway. Red trinkets don't leave lasting vision. Trackers knife is only avaialbe if you take smite to start the game. There is no substitute for sightstone to enable this play as it requires at least 1.0 uptime on wards. Sightstone is the only item that offers this.

Silverjust1 votes

and now you use the support-gold-gen-item instead

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